BioNeem for veggies?

I sent a question to Safer about BioNeem because there are stringent warnings on the label about hazards to humans from ingesting, breathing, absorbing, etc., and warnings to contact poison control for any of these kinds of contacts. And then there's a big section on the label about which veggies it can be used on (dozens). For starters, I thought neem was attractive because it was not hazardous. I thought perhaps the warnings were required for ALL pesticides, just for legal protection. I got this strange response from Safer (see below). I call it strange, because they don't seem to be aware of the veggie section on their own label. I've sent Safer another question about this, but I wondered what the rest of you think about neem-based products. Do they vary significantly? Do you think some are safe and others are not? And how do we suggest a new forum - one for commercial products - fertilizers, pesticides, etc.?

The Safer message:

"You are correct; the BioNeem should not be used on vegetables. I am not sure as to where you saw on the packaging that it was ok to use on vegetables, however, it is only directed for use on trees, shrubs, ornamentals, or flowers. I am sorry for the confusion. It is harmful if ingested. The following link is the Material Data and Safety Sheet for the BioNeem product. This site explains all of the ingredients and precautions to take with using and disposing of the product.

http://www.woodstreamcorp.com/msds/5612."

Your link doesn't work.

What is BioNeem? I use Neem oil on my veggies if I have a problem and it is OMNI certified.

BB

BB, "BioNEEM" is the name Safer's uses for their product (as opposed to just using the name "Neem"). I have a bottle in front of me and it shows only .09% of Neem (azadirachtin) and the other ingredients are inert.

LAS, the response you got certainly is a weird one. BioNEEM is certainly touted on the bottle as being used for veggies, etc. I've used it for a couple years now, and no ill effects! I believe someone wasn't quite in tune to the product.

And yes, some Neem products come with varying strengths. I think it was last year, maybe the year before, when I was reading it didn't affect lady bugs but then found another write-up that stated it did. It came down to which product was used and also the strength of it and if it was mixed w/other ingredients. Go figger, eh?

As for creating a new forum for products, there is one in existence already that reviews products. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/f/products/all/
You might want to check it out.

Best,
Shoe

Thanks Shoe

My pleasure, BB.

Hope your gardening is going well this year!

Shoe

Horseshoe, where can I find that forum on products? I've looked and looked. What's its name?

BronxBoy - that wasn't meant as a link. There's nothing behind it. It was just the e-mail signature that I got when I copied Safer's response.

To both and all. Then I'm guessing that BioNeem is as good a fungicide as Safer's Neem Based fungicide "Concern Garden Defense." I asked Safer about this at the same time, but got no response. Also got no response when I pointed out the contradictions between their answer and their label.

LAS, click the following link and it'll take you to the Garden Products forum:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/f/products/all/

As for the neem based fungicide, I can't help you there as I have never used it. I imagine there might be something in it though other than Neem.

I hope you write Safer's again and try to get a more definite answer regarding their first response to you.

Shoe

Shoe - thanks for clarification on the link. It was exactly what I wanted, but I didn't realize that's what it was because "HYPERLINK@DavesGarden.com" seemed so generic. I'm figuring now that the "hyperlink" was a front for a complex address.

Before I leave this discussion and begin posting in the proper forum, are folks of the opinion that there may be ingredients in products other than those listed? Several times now I've posted the ingredients and had responses about "other ingredients." I'm wondering if we have reason not to completely trust labels? Or if "inert ingredients" aren't really "inert" (or not "active?")

Hope to see you in "Garden Products."

I think the person at Safer made a mistake. The active ingredient in BioNeem, azardirachtin, is for vegetables and nearly all plants - although some flowers may be photosensitive to it. It's made from Neem tree nuts. Neem nuts - love saying that!

This site has extremely thorough instructions and info on usage:
Gordon's Azatrol:
http://www.pbigordon.com/pdfs/Azatrol-SL.pdf

As BroxBoy says azardirechtin is certified by OMRI - so it's allowed for certified organic farmers. It's a registered "low-toxicity" pesticide in the U.S. - it is required to be labeled with the words "Caution" or "Warning." Remember, it's "low-toxicity", not "non-toxic". I think regulators just want to protect the public from some kind of massive dose if someone is not using it correctly.

It works by preventing insects from eating, or molting properly, or may repell pests. Insects must ingest it for it to be an effective killer, so it affects mostly those insects that suck sap or eat plants - this is 60 or more kinds of insects. However, some beneficials may be affected - Butterfly and moth larvae are particularly sensitive to it and they may produce crumpled wings. Repeated sprayings may cause it to build up on pollen and be carried to hives by bees, killing the immature bees. It is toxic to fish and should not be put in any water or drain. It takes a while - sometimes more than 10 days to kill but, in my opinion, frequent sprayings - for the above reason - should be avoided.

On the good side, it breaks down quickly in sunlight and rain - in about 100 hours. It's a relatively safe insecticide when used according to directions - it's only when improperly used that it could be a problem.

The use of any such product has to be thoughtfully weighed - it's potential hazard against one's need. The best thing to do is to be as informed as possible and to use it as lightly as possible to get the desired effect

I believe "inert" ingredients are just that and, in general, not a concern.

P.S. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't think BioNeem was a fungicide (?)

This message was edited May 29, 2008 6:01 PM

OK - I'll chime in - i have a 70% neem nut (love to say it) oil OMNI endorsed bottle for aphids and fungi and rust and other stuff listed for sundry varieties of plants - it does say to keep out of reach of children.

(Shouldn't everything be kept out of reach of children? not for their protection for the protection of the thing itself?)

AND - it is working...so - the $20,000 quesition is can I kep usinf it and still sleep easy knowing I am organic? Or should I wash all of my plants in dilluted mild organic soap?

LAS, good question on the "other ingredients". Some ingredients might be inert but yet that doesn't mean in some instances they would be considered "organic" or acceptable. From what I understand inert means they have no effect on things but guess that is something that might require a bit more research, eh?

And yes, the hyperlinks are "short cuts". If you hold your cursor over the hyperlink, look at your bottom tool bar and it'll show you it's address, if you have that set up on your computer.

Shoe

edited to thank the others for their input! Much obliged!

This message was edited May 29, 2008 10:54 PM

Composite R - "I didn't think BioNeem was a fungicide?" This is another question I've addressed to Safer, but haven't yet gotten an answer. I have seen neem described as a fungicide, and I have seen it work spectacularly well on my hibiscus AND Safer sells a product with no active ingredient except Neem called "Concern Garden Defense" which is sold as a fungicide. I have asked them what the difference is between BioNeem and Garden Defense, since they have the same ingredient, but "fungicide" is not listed as one of its features.

All - This has been a very helpful thread. I'm going to post a note in "Garden Products" alerting people to its existence.

Thanks!

The plot thickens...

From the neem nut comes the extracted chemical, azadirachtin, which is the active insecticide as described above. This isn't a fungacide I don't think. This is the Safer brand product "BioNeem"

Then there is the extracted whole oil which IS a broad-spectrum fungacide and also a broad-spectrum miticide and insecticide (toxic to bees, so never spray when plant is flowering). Sold as "Neem Oil."

Then there is a third item which is a soap product made from the neem oil. I think this, too, is a general use fungacide and insecticide. I don't know what product names this is sold under.

Oh, the many uses of the Neem.

Composite-R: THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!

I wish I'd read this an hour earlier. I just got finished spraying my roses with BioNeem.... Sigh...

That's OK, LAS. In 4 days it will break down.

Are you spraying for black spot? I once used cinnimon as a fungacide on a mini rose and it worked, amazingly enough.

I sprayed with some water and a few drops of dish detergent - as a sticker - then dusted lightly but well with cinnimon. Then bake for... oh, no... Of course, I didn't have many roses and didn't need too much cinnimon. Smells good, too.

Hey, there, Compost4, would you take a look at my post in "Garden Products," "How long before rain may I spray?" It's a question about Neem again, and you are the most knowledgeable I've found on that subject. So maybe you'll know that answer too.

TIA
LAS

Hi, Horseshoe,
You explained hyperlinks to me in the snippet below. Could you tell me how to put one in one of my own posts? I want to create a hyperlink to Dave's Garden/Delphinium Forum? .

LAS, click the following link and it'll take you to the Garden Products forum:
[HYPERLINK@davesgarden.com]

TIA
LAS

Never mind, Horseshoe, I found a post in Dave's Garden FAQs that sent me to a tutorial. Hmmm.... well.... maybe I don't want you to "nevermind." I cut and pasted the URL from the window I was viewing (the tutorial for hyperlinks), but it didn't turn into a hyperlink.... Well.... maybe it will when I "send..." We'll see.

http://davesgarden.com/j/viewentry/10202/

TIA
LAS

OOOHHHH!!!! It did!!!! Yay!!!

This message was edited Aug 6, 2008 8:14 PM

Hehehe...methinks you are happy now, eh!? :>)

Congrats on learning to hyperlink! Ya done good!!

Happy Gardening!!

Shoe

Yes, happy. :-)