Persistent problem with my lasagna beds

I made two huge lasagna beds with great enthusiasm in the fall of 2006 and started planting vegetables the following spring. There are a couple of things I noticed since then:
- there seems to be too much nitrogen, tomatoes and peas are very lush and tall,
-seeds don't germinate well at all, like one third of the green beans, no squash (last year's seeds), last fall no kale germinated at all,
- some tomatoes have developed an incredible lilac colored fungus at their base (I posted this to the tomato forum)
- green peppers are doing very poorly and I will replace them,
- collards did extremely well

The only suspicion I have is that there is something wrong with one of the ingredients in the lasagna, namely, I used mulch from the municipal mulch pile (mixed leaves and pine needles). My thought is that there might be some noxious stuff in it, but that is just a guess.

Other than that I did the bed in the usual way: cardboard, horse manure, mulch, spoiled hay, manure, etc. Last fall I put on about 1-2 inches of horse manure (weedy, unfortunately) and one inch of my own compost. BTW, the manure comes from neighbor's horses, they are outside a lot (weeds), but should I ask him what kinds of medications they get?

I am at the point now where I don't want to try vegetables any more. I used to have a vegetable garden elsewhere that I did only with compost and it fed two people for the entire summer and into fall.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Clementine

I use a modified lasagna gardening on my flowers and veggies,and it does very well. I use a lot of sawdust, wood shavings, chicken and horse manure. But I use it mainly in between the plants in the veggies rows and flower beds, and plant the actual plants and seeds in rows or pockets of soil. As the plants grow I layer the lasagna layers around them to act as a deep mulch. This way the plants have soil to grow in, but still benefit from the nutrients from the lasagna as its breaking down. Just the way I do it, it works for me.

clementine - I don't have any specific thoughts, but I think it might be worth investing in having a soil sample tested to see what the imbalance is. could it be something as simple as needing to be turned (the layers may have remained to stratified)? I've noticed that you did not mention the presence of worms, so I am assuming that there were not many present - is that true through out the bed (side to side) as well as top to bottom? If it is just top to bottom (none at the top and some at the bottom) I would look at the construction of the bed and see if part of it got too compacted. Maybe one of the layers has become too compacted. My understanding is that they don't cross well from one dense layer to another, but that could just be an old farmers tale.

Have you tried sowing any seeds this year (2008) - because I am wondering if it has settled itself out - and may just have been to new and rich for most vegetables? I think I would try three things - prepare your soil for planting, and then direct sow a set of your regular reliable seeds (tomato, lettuce, carrots - a cross selection). Also start some of these seeds in pots in the greenhouse, in an organic prepared compost (either your own or purchased - but from a source different from the bed) - this will be your base line. Then try the same selection of seeds in another area of the garden (in amongst perennials?) And compare the result.

Between the growth comparison test, and the soil sample you should end up with a lot of useful information.

Thank you both for your thoughts. When I plant in a new bed (what I called semi-lasagna, may be the same as the modified lasagna), I usually also add some soil and compost for the transplants and this works fine.

However, what I am describing is a "real" lasagna bed that I built with several layers to a depth of 10" (one of them) and to way more than a foot (the other, bigger one). Laurie, it is true that there may be some problem with the layers. There is some undecomposed spoiled hay that I scratch up occasionally, but I can't see any compacted layers. And I do have worms, but have not observed where they occur.

I just saw that some more green beans are coming up that I sowed after the first ones did poorly, but the squash did not do anything, so I put in some more. The soil at seed depth is very nice, fine, dark (has horse manure and compost that I added last fall).

Perhaps someone else will have some ideas. Perhaps in the fall I should just turn the entire bed over and put on another layer of manure and compost, I am willing to do that. I am having difficulty getting leaves - too much oak - to put on the bed, but I could mix in raw, untreated sawdust.

C.

Do you not compost your Oak leaves?

Actually, Laurie, I don't for two reasons and both may be invalid: They are always mixed with pine needles, and both take a long time to decompose. I don't have a good way to shred them either. Are you trying to make me feel guilty, :-)? It is true that I don't have enough "brown" compostables, so I put in shredded paper and occasionally some cardboard (torn up).

No, not at all - I compost my oak leaves (largely because we have tons and tons of them) and I was wondering if there was a reason not to.

I use a lot of leaves, probably half are oak. I love them.

Clementine, how much of that municipal mulch did you use? Sounds like your mix was pretty high on the nitrogen side.
Cardboard- hi carbon
mulch leaves and pine needles)- carbon, but low C:N ratio

Everything else was nitrogen- manure and hay. "Later added more manure"... was there much straw in that manure? Was it fresh or composted? Maybe you did create a high nitrogen bed.

Karen

Karen, I am afraid that what you are telling me is right (but that's why I asked - to hear a diagnosis!). The manure does not have any straw in it, it is pretty pure (ahem!). The municipal stuff was put down about 5-6" deep, and perhaps a bit less for the spoiled hay. I thought the hay was brown, because it was dry and old.

So would you say I should add sawdust? I have a whole pile of it, uncomposted, it came from a local high school wood working class - and I can get more in the fall. And if you think so, how should I put it on, stir it in all over in the fall (and nothing green)? I think I should add some into the compost that I am working on now as well.

The only time I ever had a nitrogen-high garden was when I got a half a dump truck of composted chicken manure - little did I know. The tomatoes were taller than me, luscious, but very few tomatoes of course. But it rectified itself over the next year.

How long do your oak leaves take to decompose? Do you chop them up? And do you have pine needles in them as well?

The oak leaves decompost faster if shredded up, you can run your lawn mower over them if you don't have a shredder and adding the pine needles won't hurt either. I use my oak leaves to cover my potatoes, once they are harvested, we pull the leaves, shred and throw in the bins.

I don't think I'd try to mix the sawdust into the bed, I think I'd just put a layer on top. Some of the N should be tied up working on the sawdust and the worms will slowly mix everything together. And some N will leach out with rain.

Don't take what I say as expert advice. I'm just guessing, giving opinions. I've never been a farmer or lived in the country, so I know little of hay and manure except that, in composting, both are "green".

C:N ratios : http://composting101.com/c-n-ratio.html

Karen

It would probably a good idea to get a soil test done then you'll know exactly what you're dealing with. You can get a kit from your local extension office.

Thanks you so much for your good ideas. I had thought that I had done the right job with these beds, but I guess they still need some "adjustments". I need to pay better attention to those ratios. The same applies to my compost pile.

Karen, when do you think it would be best to put on the layer of sawdust, in the fall after the bed is cleared or now as mulch? How deep?

That composting101 site is quite good, thanks for that.

I wish you all good gardening!
Clementine

I guess I'd try putting some sawdust down now as mulch. I can't see where an inch or so on top could do any harm. Since you already have it on hand, I see no advantage in waiting. If you add it now, hopefully it will start to break down and do it's thing in the warm summer months.

Again, I'm no expert, just a home gardener who likes to play in the dirt. Since no one else is jumping in here with different opinions or comments, I don't want to lead you astray. This is just what I'd try.

Re: oak leaves: I collect leaves in fall, many coming from my next door neighbor, who has a couple of huge pin oaks. They seem to break down just fine either in my hot compost or in lasagna. I also mulch all my planting beds with them in fall. I guess it takes a few months, but most are shredded. They don't seem to stick around much longer than any other leaves.

Karen

Thanks, Karen, you have always been so helpful, and please don't put in your disclaimer, you have so much experience, I consider you an expert home gardener, :-), and I trust your judgment!!

I'll start the saw dust in the next couple of days, and wait - anxiously - for the leaves this fall (time will fly quickly).

Thanks again,
Clementine

PS, My successful Lupines, wintersown 2007.

Those lupines are beautiful.

Good luck with that lasagna.

Karen

Hi Clementine:

Interesting thread. I would concur with what a lot of the others have recommended. I moved to a mainly no-till, lasagna beds over the past 2 years. While I have encountered some issues, they are entirely different from the ones you have.

I do have a question: How much of your garden did you direct seed as opposed to using transplants? Going into this, I was very concerned about how seed germination would occur in these types of beds and elected to start what I wanted to grow in the greenhouse and use transplants. So far, so good . I have noticed a difference in some beds compared to others but I am getting good growth and blossoms.

BB

Its an interesting question Bronxboy - I am using a new lasagne bed for growing pumpkins and melons this year - 11 of the 12 plants I put in (all started in the greenhouse) have done wonderfully, and taken off like Piffy - one has been limp as can be. I finally dug around to see what the difference might be and discovered that there was a layer of uncomposted drier material in that particular spot (I'm adding dilute Bokashi juice to help progress the composting there). Curious now why that area didn't break down like the rest - will unearth it at the end of the season and check it further.

I'm not into this the way y'all are, but I do have a question. if your horse (ahem) was relatively pure, as you indicated, how old was it? It has to be at least a year old AND composted before I use it, otherwise it's way too hot - will burn young roots.

Also, I don't use straw, especially not moldy, as it seems to promote dampening off and other fungus(i).

Look back into using our local oak and pinestraw, run over with mower as described. It does wonders for me, both as a mulch and as it breaks down. If it takes the soil a bit too acid, I add gypsum.

careful with that sawdust from the woodworking class- some woods are treated with chemicals you'd not want in your veggies!

This message was edited May 28, 2008 1:06 PM

I started the "notill" method about five years ago. My problem has been not enough nitrogen so I suppliment with fish emulsion as a liquid feed when I need it. It may help you till it balances out. Occationally I use bloodmeal to do a quick fix.
Maybe an inoculant would help with the beans.
Also you may try the organic forum as the lazangia is very organic.

It seems that lasagna beds are not as problem free as I had thought originally.

I have had problems with beans coming up, only about half would germinate, but when I replant they will come up - so who knows, that may be weather related? Last fall I did not get a single kale seed to rear its tiny head. But cucumbers and squashes did ok. Same this year, and okra has come up immediately (soaked seeds).

It is true that there seem to be areas of undecomposed material in the layers. I used to blame it on the drought last year and thought that perhaps I had not watered sufficiently. This is my second year. I am actually really disturbing the beds quite a bit, mainly with a hoe, and in a few places, like for the pepper transplants I have even used a shovel and then added soil and compost.

The horse manure has been in a pile since early last fall, and consisted of older and also fresher stuff. There are definitely lots of seeds in it, I am weeding nice luscious weeds and putting them in the compost pile.

DH assures me that the saw dust is not from treated wood.

Bronxboy, when I transplanted my own wintersown tomatoes or bought peppers and eggplant I made little pockets with somewhat sandy soil and compost to set them in and they did well. My problem was the things I wanted to direct sow that did not work out.

I guess the experiment continues for all of us. I think next year should be much better, don't you think?

Yes. Experience is the best teacher.

I'm still not totally sold on the effectiveness of no-till as it comes to direct seeding. I know all of the literature says it should not be a problem but I have seen folks say it has been a problem for them

BB

I think it works as long as you don't take it literally - as with all of my garden I rake, hoe, shape and weed - move plants, sow seeds, and plant out. It is the pleasure of gardening. The benefit I find from lasagne is that instead of just digging out a new bed, and then digging mulch in - I start a new bed with the soil improver on top - but I still think it needs lightly forking over to make it work in. Worms are wonderful, and boy do we have our fair share - but gardening forks are brillant.

That's it, Laurie, one should not take it too literally (as I have, reading both the book and many contributions to this forum). I will from now on lightly disturb the soil before putting anything in, that should do it.

I'll bet it does, and digging is so pleasant.

So you have me thinking.
I could leave most of my garden undisturbed and till areas to plant seed shallowly with my tiller. I think I will try that with the beets and corn this week.
The soil was so cold 50 degrees two weeks ago here in zone 5, Pa I didn't do any more planting.
Thanks Y'all
aline

Just a thought about oak leaves for mulch. those here have substance on top that makes it hard for them to mulch down quickly. To get by that, put in a bag and put in water. They are ready to mulch when they turn brown or black. Doesnt take too long to happen. No need to shred them this way.
Does sound like not enough nitrogen. Anything green will supply the needed nitrogen. Also do you moisten each layer before adding another layer. Must have moisture to get the "composted" lasagna layer to do its work.
Anywhere you have lots of worms means the soil is great,

dirtyhands, I am certainly going to try your oak leaves recipe. And yes, when I built the lasagna bed, I did water each layer. But then later on, we had a bad drought for many months and even though I watered some, that was apparently not enough.

I do have worms, so there is hope.

Actually, it seems to be the consensus that I have too much nitrogen, so the oak leaves will help some and I'll just have to work on my browns.