House Sparrow problem

Well, I have this nest of house sparrows in my natural gas fireplace outflow box on the side of the house. I can get up there with a ladder and take the nest out, but I also have 2 bluebird boxes with active nests in the general vicinity. My question is, if I take out the House sparrow nest, are they likely to get angry and go try to invade the bluebird boxes? Should I just leave them where they are for now for the protection of the bluebirds? I don't really want house sparrows because they are an invasive species and are hostile with other birds, so I consider them a pest. At the same time, I don't really want to do major active control methods - passive is preferable.

So, do I leave them where they are for now, and put new wire grids on the box when the babies have fledged, or do I evict them now and risk their wrath on my other birds?

Thanks for any advice,
Claire

Since this isn't the bird forum, I'll be blunt, and honest.

You have a dilemma. We have a purple martin house, and at first we let the sparrows live there also, hoping not to risk the hosp's wrath. They would still occasionally invade the martin nests.
DH started to remove their nests after the eggs were laid in an attempt to just control the numbers (they'll nest 3 - 5 times a year here). We didn't see any big difference. But we never had bluebirds. This year, after attending a program on bluebirds, DH took a different stance, and has been aggressively destroying them, using 2 trap doors on the martin house. For the first time in 10 years, we have bluebirds, who have successfully raised their first brood and are working on their second. We used a sparrow spooker on their box to help too. We have seen what the hosps do, and we are no longer passive (removing their nests). We also, for the first time, have chickadees and titmice using other boxes, along with robins, mockingbirds, brown-headed nuthatches and cardinals nesting in trees.

I suggest you place sparrow spookers on the bluebird houses (once eggs are laid, they will not abandon) to keep the hosps at bay, and destroy the hosps. Passive means not only allowing the problem to continue, but multiplying it by about 25 per sparrow couple per year.

Sparrow spookers: http://www.sialis.org/sparrowspooker.htm

Wow, that's a lot of new sparrows per year. I had planned on some sparrow spookers so I guess I will continue with that plan. I also need to figure out how to get the vent closed off so they can't get in it. Maybe I will do the trap thing as well. I feel bad about it but I don't like the idea of them scaring away or destroying the other birds' nests. I'm really anxious about them hurting the bluebirds, so I don't want to do any active nest removal until my bb's have fledged.

Thanks for the straightforward advice.
Claire

Hey ceejaytown, Very well stated. I remember when you struggled with the paradox of active control. Horrendously tough decision to allow active control for me, not so hard for my husband who began active control a few years ago after looking at photos and watching a few video cam recordings online. He didn't begin baiting them with cheap bird seed or white feathers until he flat out got fed up the day he found his first sparrow nest built on top of a nuthatch nest. The sparrows had built their nest right on top of dead nuthatch babies. He'd seen my dead wood duck babies and dead screech owl babies and he had seen the sparrows flying in and out of the nest boxes but he had never seen a nest built right on top complete with their telltale eggs in it. Looks as if you ended up in the same boat that we ended up in several years ago. I still can't bring myself to destroy either English house sparrows or European starlings but I allow it and admittedly support anyone who chooses active control and that includes my husband, a few neighbors, and you. Over here, passive control (including me removing their eggs from their nests to boil them and putting them back to dupe the sparrows for a while into not laying more eggs) simply didn't stop their numbers from growing exponentially. We still feel horrible about it because it isn't the sparrow's fault. It came down to being forced to choose whether to continue passive control alone wherein which the sparrows continued to annihilate cavity nesters or allowing my husband to begin active control where he was stuck humanely destroying them. Their rate of reproduction was impossible to deal with over here.

I'm in your boat, Equi. I can't do it myself either, but DH changed after attending a meeting on bluebirds and seeing the photos. He realized that he was only stopping the breeding in our martin house, and that wasn't enough. Last count I heard was 37. He is a very gentle man, and this is entirely not natural for him, but I'm now glad he can do it. When he is out of town, and the trap is sprung, I call on my friend - a petite, organic gardener, who just happens to be on the board of the bluebird society here - and she drives to my house to do whatever she does. I don't want to know. I just realize it has to be done. I take no pleasure in this; I feel very bad about it, and I know it's a losing battle. But this year we had bluebirds, and all kinds of other wonderful birds too (including brown-headed nuthatches that I had never seen before), and so I have to say it was worth it.

Are you using one of the traps we discussed a few years ago?

It goes against our grain too. Think how many of us are raised to respect all life and taught to never destroy anything under any circumstances even if it is killing other life forms. It's that circle of life associated with wildlife ingrained in all of us from when we are little. One problem- these birds aren't a part of the circle of life here, they destroy wildlife here. My husband is into the hundreds. It's the white feathers. They can't pass up white feathers.

I know it isn't a losing battle over here so don't think it is by you. 37 means your husband single handedly removed those adults and their ability to reproduce from the environment. That's hundreds less by one man who must care an awful lot. My husband isn't the only one any longer as our neighbors are catching up to my husband's count and the county health department began aggressively destroying European starlings. My bet is the county's numbers are in the thousands. Once that farmer down the road saw what the county was doing, he ordered a colossal industrial trap used by professional exterminators and began destroying the European starlings on his property. Our one neighbor put up a martin house specifically to lure in the house sparrows. Never thought of that tactic before they did it but his numbers are incredibly high in just one year which might justify the purchase of a martin house and individual traps for each compartment. As fast as the neighbor can unload a trap, it's getting filled again. I am convinced that what my husband and others are doing is making an impact locally. We have screech owls again, first time in years. We've put up nest boxes for woodpeckers in areas that my husband can monitor from windows in our house and they're being used by woodpeckers this year which is another first in years. Still no blue birds or purple martins but maybe some day if he keeps up the pace. My husband is motivated so I don't think that will be an issue. Trapping them has become as common place as cutting the lawn and taking out the garbage for him. My only regrets are that we can't ship the house sparrows all back to their native range throughout Europe where there numbers are declining.

I've been away but am just back reading this. I have what is probably a silly question, but how does the trap only get sparrows and not other types of birds?

I am really upset. I had 2 chipping sparrow nests, one with 3 eggs that had just hatched, and another fresh built that just had 3 eggs laid. The one with the eggs that hatched was OK for 2 or 3 days, and then I went to look and found 1 baby dead laying on the ground, and the other 2 missing. No bite marks or other damage to the baby. The other nest with the eggs was just empty, and then I found one of the eggs on the ground across the yard, but it was intact. I put it back in the nest and the next day it was broken. Plus, one of my bluebird nests with 5 babies was suddenly empty one day and they were not old enough - maybe 9 days old. Did the house sparrows do all this? Or is it something else? If it was something else, I would have thought they would eat the baby chipping sparrow, not just leave it. Same with the intact egg. I am beside myself trying to figure out what is going on.

Claire

One starts by learning how to properly and definitively identify an English House Sparrow both male and female. There are many online sources to help you do this or you can do what I originally did and call out a die hard birder. I found a volunteer who left me with full color images of them as well as any bird they could possibly be confused with.

I actually started by learning how to identify the eggs because I wasn't comfortable allowing anything but the boiling of their eggs to dupe them back then. I was provided with resource materials to be able to identify their eggs. Interestingly enough, after a while of watching which birds tend to the nests, you are able to identify them quite easily. The male is the give away.

Regarding the traps, we do occasionally get other species in them. The birds don't hurt my husband. He simply sticks his hand in the trap and removes all the indigenous species.

His ground traps always have fresh food and water in them for the house sparrows. If you are not going to check traps several times a day, don't put them out. Please go to the sialis site and read everything you can read there. Then, you might want to contact a member named stelco via private d-mail for additional help.

Not much I can do for you other than to tell you that what you described above sounds similar to what happens around here on a regular basis only sometimes we find the eyes of baby birds pecked out and other noticeable peck marks on them. Eggs of cavity nesters were trashed regularly. Usually the dead babies were never gone from the area though. We are always able to find the dead babies in the nest or directly underneath it on the ground. I don't think they ever just vanished. Go out and look again and see if you can't find their little bodies on the ground in the grass. To the best of my knowledge, there is no other bird that could account for what you described above. I will tell you that we had to add baffles to our poles to stop feral and stray cats as well as snakes from getting to nest boxes. Snakes can go straight up some poles. If you don't find the dead babies on the ground directly beneath the nest boxes, you could have a snake or cat problem. Set up a video camera on the area maybe?

I wondered about snakes. I asked the local bird place and they said that because my nest boxes are on PVC posts, they were unlikely to be able to get up those. Maybe they are wrong. I don't know what sort of snakes we have here in Iowa that would do that. I have never seen a snake in my yard. I want to get baffles installed and we bought some aluminum flashing last week to make our own. The bb boxes were installed by the previous owner of the home so I am still learning. He didn't have baffles. There were no dead babies under the nestbox at the bb box. The dead baby sparrows (chipping) might be in or under the juniper bush branches. I didn't look too exhaustively there. I just found the one on the top. The bb nest box is in an open grassy area that we mow, so I would have seen the babies there, plus they were not just tiny pink things like the sparrows - they had begun to grow feathers. I am sure I would have seen them. But, if they were pulled out of the nest one day (and I didn't see it) then that night, the raccoons could have got them I guess. There was a robin's nest that also went mysteriously empty and I wondered about raccoons. Another reason for the baffles.

The thing with the chipping sparrow nests is that they are pretty close to the ground and easy to find. I don't know how to protect them because I can't install baffles for those.

I have 3 bb boxes, 2 with bb families (one is still OK with its 5 babies, getting close to fledging) and then the 3rd bb box has tree swallows in it, still in egg stage. I will be putting up baffles on all of them (cone shaped, made from the aluminum flashing).

Claire

We have baffles on all of our birdhouse poles. And we place the sparrow spookers up after an egg has been laid. They won't desert the house then. You could have had raccoons, opossums, or snakes. They all can easily climb any pole.... If you put up baffles, make sure you add a snake deterrent. Snakes can stretch out and go over the edge of the baffles, or climb right up through it if the opening around the narrow part which is attached to the pole is large enough to allow their body to get through. The sialis website talks about using a square piece of hardware cloth, with the edges snipped to make them sharp, and placing it above the baffle to deter any snakes that circumvent the baffle. That site is a wealth of information.

If you see eyes pecked out, or peckings on the body anywhere - that is death by hosps.

As Equi said - Learn what a hosp looks like. The male is obvious, but the female is a little trickier. Not impossible, just trickier. For instance, we also have house finches. The female's coloration resembles hosps, but I can tell the them apart immediately by their beaks. Finches have heavy triangular shaped beaks for cracking open seeds. And a hosp's nest is very recognizable. You probably already know that.

There isn't much you can do to help birds that make their nests in trees and shrubs. Except to keep the hosps away....

Equi - In answer to your question - The only trap we use are the two on our martin house. We've caught more hosps there than our friend with a cage trap and some other kind that she uses in unused bird houses, placed where bb's don't nest. The hosps love to get up there and wander in and out of the holes. These trap door holes are too small for the martins to get into. Our friend now has trap doors in her martin house too! We'll keep it up this winter after the martins leave (we usually take it down for the winter to deter the hosps from setting up shop), and add some more trap doors.

You know another thing that I have noticed? I hear bird songs. Beautiful bird songs. Not hosps chirp, chirp, chirping, but birds singing. Never really noticed that before.

I've not known chipping sparrows to ever nest in a box but I suppose anything is possible. Around here I removed the European buckthorns and Japanese honeysuckles that they were nesting in which forced them to nest at greater heights. Get a taller pole to put those nest boxes on that the chipping sparrows are in so you aren't exposing those birds to a greater risk of predation.

I'm with ceejay on the snakes- "Snakes can stretch out and go over the edge of the baffles, or climb right up through it if the opening around the narrow part which is attached to the pole is large enough to allow their body to get through." PVC isn't all that easy for snakes to get up but there are some decent sized snakes in Iowa. All of these are present in your state-
http://www.herpnet.net/Iowa-Herpetology/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=81&Itemid=45
My baffles are store bought and are sized to the poles I use. They fit snug so that there's no space for snakes to slither up and through. I've got my nest boxes up high to deter snakes from stretching up and over the baffles.

If you have bluebird babies and tree swallow eggs left in two nest boxes PLEASE put up a sparrow spooker now on both of them. Take your plastic garbage bags (color doesn't matter) and cut them into thin and long strips and staple or duct tape them to a dowel or piece of wood and get them fluttering over the top of those nest boxes even if you have to do it in your slippers and nightgown with a flashlight. You don't need anything fancy but you really do need something fast since you don't know what happened to the other blue bird babies and I suspect those were destroyed by your local house sparrows. A snake would have only taken what it was going to eat. Same deal with a raccoon. At least try your best to get something temporary up until you can create sparrow spookers that are more permanent-
http://www.sialis.org/sparrowspooker.htm

Yup, our neighbor is trapping one after the next using your system.

This past weekend I had another DG member over here. She is an avid birder and counted upwards of 20 different native species in my back yard. She was awestruck. She's one of those people who can identify a bird without seeing it by its song. She heard a catbird and told me to listen as it was distinctive but after a while of being with her, they all start sounding the same to me. No house sparrow sightings at all out back over the weekend and only a few starlings.

Sorry - I wasn't clear. The chipping sparrows are not in the nest boxes. They are in my juniper and arrowwood (viburnum) shrubs. The nest boxes are separate - with the bluebirds and swallow in them. The little chipping sparrows in my juniper had their eggs hatch but the babies were dragged out (not eaten/pecked) and the other nest had its eggs removed before they hatched - in fact only a couple of days after hatching. I am hoping the chipping sparrows will build new nests and try again, but am concerned on how to protect them because I can't put up baffles on my shrubs. If it's the house sparrows that are attacking the nests, then I guess I can't protect them in any case. Can I put plastic streamers on the shrubs? Would that attract more attention from other birds (like maybe blue jays?) that would lead them to the chipper's nests, or would that detract the hosps? Maybe it's the blue jays that attacked the nests in the first place - I'm not sure. I have a lot of birds - 36 species on my property at last count, but the most common ones I see in the area with the chipping sparrow nests are the orioles, the robins, the blue jays, the hummingbirds, and the sparrows themselves. Oh, also the phoebe. Her nest and eggs are fine at this time.

I will put up garbage bag streamers on the boxes tonight when I get home. I will put them on the 2 boxes that are still inhabited. Should I also put them on the now empty box? I have seen the bluebird pair sitting on top of it since their babies disappeared. I hope they might try again? Should I clear out the old nest so they can rebuild or will they reuse it?

Claire

I was doing my own baffles with the flashing because the ones from the Wild Birds Unlimited store were $40 apiece, which was quite a bit for 3 of them. Also they don't fit the poles that the nest boxes are currently situated on. So I would have had to buy 3 new poles and 3 baffles all at once. Ouch. Maybe I can do them one at a time and we'll make the aluminum flashing baffles and put up the streamers in the meantime.

As far as the chipping sparrows, I don't know what to even think about that. I suppose if they build another nest that low you could turn the shrub into a bramble fortress by placing blackberry and rose branches around the circumference and while you're at it, maybe sprinkle a boat load of red cayenne pepper around the base. I'd contact stelco privately and ask him what he would suggest. I've removed shrubs that aren't a suitable nest location and the birds are now choosing hawthorns more often than not.

The strips of garbage bags are fine. I've used streamers from the handles of children's bicycles and discarded pom poms from a friend's daughter who had been a cheerleader before. No need to incur any unnecessary expense. Do not put sparrow spookers on top of the nest box where the babies disappeared. You always wait until they lay an egg to add sparrow spookers. The parents will not abandon their eggs. I'd clear out the old nest. I think Mark sent me something on bluebird preferences in nests and if given a choice, they will choose a cleaned out nest box over one with an existing nest in it. Something to do with parasites. Best to confirm that with him though.
The only reason why I bought their baffels is because I had bought their bird houses and poles and started asking myself if my husband really needed another "honey do" project to bog him down. Make your own, lots of people do. Use the hardware cloth as suggested by ceejay but other materials are also able to be used and I've seen people use that wire mesh at the tops of chimneys.

Just wanted to add something about the sparrow spooker. I was also one of those people that couldn't bring myself to kill the sparrow and would have someone else do it when I trapped one in the box using the trap sold by the Bluebird Society. That was until I actually found my female tree swallow pecked to death on her nest and the male sparrow going back into the box. After that I was able to do the killing myself. I just picture that horrible sight in my head and have now problem. I tried something new this year. Last year I would take the spooker down when the brood left the nest. I had problems with the sparrows and wrens trying to take over the box while the blues were trying to build a second nest. I decided to leave it up this year and see what happened. The female bluebird is now sitting on her third nest of eggs and no one has bothered them all summer. The blues obviously don't mind the spooker once it is there because they built a second and third nest with it in place. I will take it down when they stop nesting for the summer.

Thanks for the tips suscwbuff. I have had several nests of chipping sparrow eggs in my viburnum shrubs that I have found within a few days of egg laying with all the eggs pecked open. I strongly suspect the house sparrows but haven't caught them at it yet. I have yet to buy the trap but plan to do so.

In the meantime, I have been very successful since installing the baffles. My bluebirds who lost their initial brood (still not sure how since no evidence found) have since had 2 successful broods in the box with the home-made baffle. Both broods have successfully fledged and they have just laid another set of 4 eggs on the weekend! I am amazed! The other box with a homemade baffle was initially inhabited by bluebirds who were successful with a brood after the baffle was installed, and then a tree swallow took it over and she has just had her brood fledge. This tells me the baffles are working. I have to buy a ladder long enough to reach the sparrow nest in the propane vent.

I also made spookers with the holographic tape I bought from Burpee. Seems to be fine also.

The only thing I haven't been able to do is help the chipping sparrows. No matter what shrub they build a nest in, either the eggs are crushed or the newly hatched babies are killed. I think it will come down to killing the house sparrows because I suspect they are the culprits.

I certainly appreciated everyone's suggestions on this thread and am seeing improved success because of the help!
Claire

What wonderful success stories. Our BBs are on their third nesting too. We've had 10 fledglings so far, working on 15. And brown-headed nuthatches, titmice, chickadees, cardinals, mockingbirds, red-bellied woodpeckers - it has been an awesome year for babies.

We had a big influx of sparrows just as the purple martins babies fledged. They came in to our feeders from nesting sites in the neighborhood. But because the martins had vacated, we were able to return the trap doors to their house, and began eliminating them again. For some reason, they are attracted to the martin house. It is the best trap we've found, and we've tried the others. Kind of an expensive trap, if you don't get martins, but we do, so it's the best of both worlds. Just had to stop the trapping for awhile when the martin babies were older for fear they would be startled when we lowered the house...

The trap I bought from the bluebird society works great. I heard the d--- male sparrow making his annoying chipping sound and went to check the box at the corner of my lot. I had been cleaning out sparrow nests but had neglected it for 2 days. Here there was a nest with an egg. So, threw it out and put the trap in the box. Within 15 minutes I saw the trap was sprung and sure enough the male was in the box. Needless to say he was disposed of quickly.
The last two nights have been entertaining in the yard. The babies from the second brood have realized that mom and dad are bringing food to the box to feed the third brood. So, they've been sitting on top of the spooker just hoping for a free meal in between the feeding of the new babies. They'll play with the streamers while they wait.
CMoxon, do you have bluejays or grackles? They will eat the eggs and young of other birds. I saw a jay get to close to the bluebird box and the male and female blue both started attacking it. The jay couldn't have gotten the eggs in the box but I guess they weren't going to take any chances. I've also see the robins chasing the jays if they get too close.

#53

Yes, I do have jays. I rarely see grackles. This is why I'm not sure what went after the chipping sparrow nests and babies. The bluebird babies who didn't make it disappeared from the box without a trace (5 of them) so I didn't suspect jays for that. More likely a snake, coon, or cat, I guess, although I've never seen a cat in the area. That's why we put up the baffles. Do you think the jays would have eaten all 5 of them? In the third chipping sparrow nest that was destroyed, there was also a cowbird egg, destroyed. BTW, I had a nestful of robin babies, 3 of them, who also disappeared without a trace, and a blue jay nest with 4 eggs that also disappeared without a trace. Both those nests were in coniferous trees.
Claire

Or opossum ....

I have a river otter but I don't think they do that. I sometimes see possums flat on the road. Are they capable of climbing the PVC pole and sticking their foot in to get the birds out? They have such short little legs.

Oh yes! They have regular sized legs, and are omnivorous, eating anything they can get hold of, and baby birds are one of those things.

If you poles are baffled you shouldn't have a problem with anything climbing up the pole. Is the house low enough that the cat could jump over the baffle onto the house? I don't think the jays can get the babies in my box because the nest is down low enough. Plus, jays don't hang very well and they have nothing to perch on to even get down into the nest box. I'm guessing that something is getting past the baffle if one is on the pole.

Oh, the initial brood of babies were the ones who disappeared. After that, I installed homemade baffles made of aluminum flashing (for houses) and wood. Since then, the broods in the nest boxes have been fine. It's the chipping sparrows in the viburnum and juniper bushes that are having their eggs destroyed now. Sorry, I wasn't clear.
thanks!
Claire

That makes sense then. If there was no baffle it could have been any of a number of animals that got them. My guess would be the jays getting the babies in the bushes. I have a nest of baby robins in my viburnum and if the blue jay gets too close it gets attacked like you wouldn't believe. I thought a hawk had gotten something because of the racket going on and here it was a robin fighting the blue jay and chasing it through the trees in my yard.