Info on Tsuma Gaki?

I recently saw beautiful specimens of 'Tsuma Gaki' for sale. The red edging and plant form is so appealing. The tag says that in the summer, the edging remains and the centers fade to pale green/ivory. However, the Vertrees book on JMs says that the leaves turn all green by summer. Has anyone had experience with this variety in the Midwest?

I have one but don't think mine kept its color red edges in the heat of summer but can't remember that well but I think that is right but I do remember many if anot all of my red edged cultivars, of which there are many to varying degrees ,always loosing that edge of red in summer...maybe on some second flush leaves giving it some of that look...but not older leaves ...in addition i would take Vertrees info over any tag anyday ...although Vertrees is human and I expect not always right,tags on the other hand are ment to sell the cultivar ...not often a good place to get correct info...and of course there is the adage just like in realestate it often depends location location location....Coloration can be differnt from spacial and regional locations...But I think vertrees descrition is correct. David

My tsuma gaki definitely greened out during summer here in St Louis.
It was clearly a spring-time performer.
Alas, no longer with me after last spring's freeze.

Thanks to both of you for the info. I think I'll pass on this one for now. Someday...?

It's difficult to see in this pic, but my 'Tsuma Gaki' kept red margins all summer. As it's in a full sun location, the top leaves got red. (Not crunchy, though; it's in a moist spot and we had l-o-t-s of rain last summer)

Vertrees considers the Tsuma gaki and Tsuma gata very similar ..yours according to his description sounds like a Tsuma gata not gaki which is always a possibility from mistagging or just so close it was always thought of as such by the growers... the gata holds it's color into the summer and has more of a redish cast thoughout except on shaded leaves which looks identical to yours ... But it may be just the location and a gaki ...as I said in my original response a plant can look very differnt from area of country to area of yard.and they are very similar ..I am 200+ miles south of you and St. Louis is 300+ miles south and very hot in summer ...and as we all know you chicago folks had little or mostly NO damage from last years freeze whereas I had alot and our St. Louis friend had a total disaster so location is a big deal in all phases of JM'dom..that being said I would NOT want to bet the farm that any gaki will hold its color into the heat of summer or for that matter ANY JM no matter what the lituature says on it ...some may hold better than others or better in differnt locals but it is not a good thing to promote all summer color on any JM that is anywhere near as dramatic as spring or fall color on said cultivar...but it is still a neat tree whatever it's ultimate color disposition is.David

This message was edited May 11, 2008 3:39 PM

Plantaholic186: How old is your 'Tsuma Gaki'? It looks like it remains fairly short, unless you've pruned it that way. (?)

My Tsuma Gaki loses the red edges later in the year, but I waited three years to get it and I love it. It's very well structured and its spring color is such an eye catcher.

Laura

I actually planted this a only a couple of years ago. I had been looking for a 'Tsuma Gaki' for a while, and lucked out when I found this guy. The only pruning I've done is to remove the errant dead twig, which has been minimal. Since this is its second year in its new home, I doubt I'll see much growth until next year at the earliest.

David- According to Vertrees, the 'purplish' red tips on the leaves of the Tsuma Beni bleeds into the green center, which mine does not. My tree is identical to the image Vertrees uses for Tsuma Gaki, so I'm pretty confident that that's what I have. I've just assumed that the full sun position is what reddens the leaves so much. And you're right; one should never expect a plant to behave exactly as it's described in texts.

Laura, I'm with you on that! My TG is definitely my favorite tree : )

I must have been tired when I posted that I misread Vertrees there is no Tsuma gata sorry I ment Tsuma beni...And still think the beni is plausable even if you don't think so...if you look at the photos of both...yours resembles the Beni much more...Of course I don't know when that photo was taken but the Gaki droops and becomes yellowish in summer..and I agree with that discription since I have both ...I perasonally prefer the beni myself at least this month but both are nice trees and similar except in summer.and mine are not full grown specimin trees like yours in the photo is or is nearly David

I bought this Tsuma Gaki from our Master Gardeners plant sale last year. I worked in the JM section and told my 4 year old son to pick one. He loved the way the leaves looked like hands with red nail polish. I kept its red but not as contrasting as the season went on.

Master Gardeners are not gods and that info may be correct for your area but not others.. it is a much bigger plant than the similar Tsuma Beni and isn't as stunning as beni has more colored red tips and holds better thought the seaon better although both won't hold mid summer.. but it does grow faster and bigger .. yours whatever size it gets is WAY to close to the house I think even a BS master gardener would agree with that a Tsuma beni would have been a bit better choice or numerous other more dwarf jms. but even with smaller dwarfs that is two close you will have a trangular tree eventually with no branches on back .. mand how the heck did you come up with 2008 thead I am too embarrassed to read what I stated likely all wrong since I was just beginning collecting then and thought Vertrees master gardeners and other that i would classified know it all is where I got all my info from.. Vertrees is still "the man": but he is from Oregon 99% of everyone reading this is not ... and oregon is perfect Jm growing area very similar to Japan with volcanic soil temps etc .. 99% of the resat of us do not have those condition thats why the most knowledgeable grower in Oregon cut his 10 year growth allot ( almost 1/2 vertrees) than what it was from reading Vertrees Oregon monologues since he doesn't sell in Oregon but all over nthe nus wholesale only ... D-san

I wasn't saying that Master Gardeners were gods. A Master Gardener takes a 14 week long course in their county's horticulture through their cooperative extension agency and then volunteers at least 50 hours a year in their community. So they are basically committed volunteers not BS Master Gardeners. I am a Master Gardener and I graduated from NC State with a degree in Agriculture Business management. I think that qualifies me to write a post on garden forum with out having some BS wannabe expert shred it. NO ONE WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT THE BENI!! I was asking another grower about their Gaki that I liked. I sure as Hell didn't ask you if I planted my tree in the right spot. And just so you know the difference, the beni's leaves are cut deeper and it's mature height is 9 feet instead of 8. It's people like you that ruin these forums for the rest of us who want to share thoughts and ideas. You're an arrogant know-it-all who can't show anyone else a little respect for having an opinion. You probably run people out of threads everyday. Why don't you just blog instead?

You are a snob and youn don't know what you are talkin about Beni is definitly a smaller tree ... and it is folks like yo who take things personally that ruin forums . if folks want to take your opinion over mine they should do so. And if I added something non pertinent who the heck cares and. My experience which comes with 15 years of growing Jms and expert advise from folks whom are have 50 years experience who are my good friends and are much more knowledgeable than I am and are not snobs make me much more knowledgeable than some 12 week know it all with a dumb title .. It takes years to become a JM expert I have that you and your master gardner with their 12 week course do not !!!!! if folks don't like what I say then they should just ignore it not go balistic as you have done I am a big snob know it nall hater .. I make mistakes Andaman admit them you are wrong the beni mis a smaller less vigorous trees ... and your hatefulness and out of order comments ruin forums not mine I have been posting here for years and never had such a hateful response from anyone n.. if my post poffend you don't read them as I won't yours from now on ..I don't need this stress as some folks know why but I will not go into that!! .. I just cant take know it all's... it is a thing that gets to me like tea bagges and other know it all who actually know little. Don't bother respooinding I am done with you on this matter... if you want to beat your breast over this write nyourself a letter and mail it to yourself.

Aw, what's wrong, wannabe?? Can't handle a dose of your own medicine? You'd think after ten years of posting, you'd have a better comprehension of the English language. I hope you know more about Japanese Maples than you know about basic grammer, spelling and writing in general. But from the sound of it, you don't. I guess it's time you went back to school. You're just a hack from IL.

I won't DIGNIFYyour school boy post your post by answering it .school boy .... you try to type with chemo .. it speaks absurdly for itself especially since you have never been active member of this forum ... seems like yahoos are coming out of their closet to vent and I won't be a part of it .. see ya. I am not going top be a part of this forum anymore .. if individuals who are SANE want expert advise they can contact me thru my website or thu Dmail I will check it occasionally but will not put up with this nonsense so g'by.. thats all folks no more advise help or any other INFO from from me ... since those two think they know so much have THEM anwser your questions if they ever post again... but I am always avail thru the other channels. It is too bad that there are so many jerks in the world ... ...or should I say bullying. It would be nice if folks didn't take things so personally... I don't .. and that those who are not apart of any discussion just butt out and not try to make things worse ... just plain bullying. I was bullied by jerks all my life as a youth and I will not be a part o0f it here. YOU FOLKS Enjoy your lives at least those of you that aren't jerks AND BULLYS.... d-SAN

Nice try with the cancer card. But I've already been to stage three and back so no tears shed for you by me. You may want to ask your doc to cut back on the steroids. I've been getting props all day for telling you what everyone else has wanted to for years.

i've been watching this back and forth and hoping it would stop.

mccaine your last post has gone way too far. david is a good person and has been very helpful here with his knowledge and very helpful to me personally - i understand how some of his posts can seem abrupt - if you knew him like most of us here you would understand there is nothing mean spirited behind them.

i get a kick out of his missed key strokes, it has nothing to do with understanding the english language.

it is you who owe him an apology.

Wha

I second that post. As a grower I can understand the comments that David made and also believe that mccaine was out of line.

Dave

This message was edited Mar 13, 2012 8:30 AM

I am an infrequent poster on this forum but have followed it on and off since its inception. I know David from two perspectives - from this forum and as a customer of his. He is a very nice guy and knows his stuff. I had been growing JMs for a few years before knowing David, yet I have learned much from him. This attack on him is truly disgusting and shows a complete lack of character and decency.
As a customer, I have been 100% satisfied with David as a business owner. He makes sure you are well taken care of, no matter what. He is on my 'gold list' of plant sources.

Victor