Starting Hippeastrum From Seed

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

I've had a bit of beginner's luck and pollinated an unnamed Home Depot rescue bulb that appears to be Rosetta with pollen from Hippeastrum mandonii. I got the pollen from Shields Gardens thanks to a poster here who gave me the source. Of the four flowers on the scape, two are producing seed. The seed pods are still swelling. Since this seed is pretty precious to me, I'm eager for any advice on how to successfully germinate it. I do not have a green house. But I am willing to use heat matts or whatever else it takes.

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Solingen, Germany(Zone 7a)

Snapple, the seedpods in the picture won't produce seeds.
NO'PE!
Notice that the stem is already fading too.
A TET hybrid is not likely to be successfully pollinated by a DIP (species) amaryllis.

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

You could very well be right. But the capsule on the left contiues to swell, is rock hard, shiny bright green and the stem is very much alive. The one on the right is marginal. I know this is highly improbable. I got the idea to try from an article in Garden Gate Magazine. A breeder got a cross between a Clivia and a Hippeastrum. Extremely improbable!! The breeder is not disclosing yet what the results are. This is the fourth flower stalk this hippeastrum has thrown this season ( a mother bulb and two off sets) and I pollinated every flower. All but these two were obvious failures right from the start. I have another flower stalk on the way. I repotted last spring, keeping the offsets with the mother bulb and it apparently likes it new conditions. If it is a failure I will post.

Aschaffenburg, Germany

Snapple 45, here is a picture of some capsules that kept swelling but didn't produce viable seeds. If the seeds capsule does not form a niceley sealed capsule, the answer was a lemon.

Here is a pic of some that swell, but didn't set...they will look strong but will have the cockscombs ...lock at the capsule in the right upper corner that fuses with the bloom.

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Aschaffenburg, Germany

They will eventually look like this...

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Aschaffenburg, Germany

I don't share the opinion held by Haweha, who is well known in the German forum as the amaryllis man when saying:

TET hybrid is not likely to be successfully pollinated by a DIP (species) amaryllis...

and who readily shares his opinion on anything and everything regarding the hippestrum species...

I have done repeated crossings with xxxxx, which is believed to be a tet...both with tets and diploid hippeastrums...

I am not disclosing the type here because Haweha is known for airing other people's findings as his own.

I also believe in the breeding of hippeastrums that are different species but closely related because I have done it myself...

Be encouraged, snapple 45, do your crosses, learn by trial and error rather than by what selfstyled specialists tell you...

And please do share both your successes and failures with us.





Aschaffenburg, Germany

Here a photo of diploid and tetraploid successful pollinations on a tet...

Believe me, these seed pods look rather promising...and no cockcombs...



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Ewing, VA

I try anything on everything...

If it succeeds, be grateful. If it fails, persevere...

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Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Oh wow! gofast! mariava7! I'm awed! Here are two shots of development as of today. I've no idea what's happening. Except that its been about 12 days since the flower(s) wilted.

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Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Better shot

Thumbnail by snapple45
Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Last One

I really appreciate your encouragement. Even if these are duds I'm not quitting now.

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Mobile, AL

Snapple,

Most definitely, never get discouraged and do not quit!

The first obstacle that you have with this cross is the fact that the pod parent is a double. I have many doubled Tets in my collection, and I have never been able to get any of them to produce seeds. That does not mean that it is impossible. It just means that my many, many attempts have never been successful.

Secondly, I agree that my impression after viewing your first image was the same as Hans-Werner. In that picture, the stems appeared to be yellowing, and from 'my' experience, this yellowing is an early sign of pod failure.

Third, I have read many of Hans-Werner's posts on various forums, including the translated version of the German forum, and I have noticed that if he shares information experienced by someone else, he states so and often links to another site for reference. He also references Veronica Read's book on Hippeastrum. Some day, I hope to have my own copy of that book.

Personally, I learn as much as I can from other's experiences as well as my own. That is a good thing and the greatest thing about forums like this one and many, many others. The internet is wonderful!

Snapple, if you wish to understand the Tetraploid vs. Diploid issues better, there has been a lot of research done with daylilies. That is how I first found out about 'ploidy', and I had an excellent internet mentor (selfstyled specialist) to help me through the process since I am not a scientist, by any means.

Good Luck to YOU! And do let us know what happens... We all have failures. There are too many variables associated to make perfect conclusions as individuals, but collectively, we can share in a friendly fashion and learn from each other. In time, you will become more and more successful. And when you learn what works for you and what does not, you can try elaborate crosses with better probabilities of success.

Cheers and Friendly SMILES!

Ann

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Oh, I really appreciate your experience, information and guidance. None will be wasted I can assure you. At this time the 'pods' are stilll growing strong. About 17-18 days out from when the flower(s) wilted. There is no yellowing of the stems, just bad photography! However, I do realize how improbable this is and the extreme odds of success.


Mary

Mobile, AL

Mary,

I will be thrilled if you have success. Since I do not specifically have Rosetta (I adore from pictures), I cannot quote experiences from that specific double.

Please do keep us posted!

Ann

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Thought I would update. Seed capsules still apparently growing. Another flower on the fourth scape opened fully today. Seed capsule pic in next post.

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Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Seed capsules still growing - Seems slow!

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Ewing, VA

3 weeks from pollination... If it reaches 5 weeks without the seedpod wilting/aborting, you are almost safe. What's inside the seedpod is another story.
Please continue keeping us posted. A little prayer helps too. :-)

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

The seed pod(s) aborted! I am so disappointed. But, I persevere. I thank you all for warning me that this could happen. It did soften the blow.

Solingen, Germany(Zone 7a)

Mary, thank you for the final information.
My early prognostication was based on the appearance of the seed pods. According to my experience the formation of rills (grooves) is an un-illusionary precursor of truncation.

Please beware of misinterpretations of my further statement.
When I detail a chain of reason and effect, here that it is the combination of
TET [seed pod parent] x DIP [pollen donor]
which is unlikely to produce seeds then that is to be taken as an explanation in order to understand and not to invest too high expectations to receive seed production after dusting big blooming cultivars with DIP species amaryllis. It should pretty-please NOT be interpretated as if I be recommending not to untertake the attempt.
I learned, at least from the GardenWebAmaryllisHippeastrumForum that a member crossed successfully
"Red Lion" x H.papilio (TET x DIP) and, since the member was capable of presenting the proof in picture (he received 3 specimens of very different appearance, all the three being extremely arttractive) I have no reason to doubt.
However, when I dusted 8 flowers of Red Lion with Pollen from DIPs (4 with H.papilio and 4 with "Pretty Lip") I was not as fortunate as he had been ;)

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

I have Veronica Read's book and also "Botany for Gardeners". I'm determined to get a basic understanding of the TET DIP stuff. I'm also encouraged to continue on. Again, Thanks to ALL of you who took the time reply. Even if it was a bust it was fun. Can't wait for the next time.

Solingen, Germany(Zone 7a)

Veronica's book will not provide you that kind of information.
Actually, she did not (cross)pollinate and propagate hippeastrums by seed - at least this book did not reveal the slightst hint that she had (hitherto) propagated amaryllis with other means than vegetatively.
I was - disappointed :(

haweha-
Which books do you recommend that are available in English? Thanks.

Ewing, VA

Failures happen for us to learn from them. :-)

Robertstown, Australia(Zone 10a)

Hi all,
This seems like a good spot to give a basic explanation of ploidy to those who are new to the concept. For those of you who are familiar with all of this you can just ignore me, but it seems that we have a few new people on this forum who are finding it rather heavy going. LOL! In the original species Hippeastrums, it is most common for every cell to contain 22 pairs of chromosomes. In each pair it is normal for only one of the pair to be active ie working. The active chromosome is described as dominant and the inactive chromosome is described as recessive. Without getting too technical, the production of pollen and ovules splits these pairs so that each pollen grain and ovule contain one member of each pair, ie 22 single chromosomes. This is called the haploid number or n. In Hippeastrums we say then that n=22. When the pollen and ovule fuse to form the seed the 22 pairs of chromosomes are recreated in the offspring, but since the divisions in each pair are random in the first place genetic mixing occurs and the offspring are unlikely to be identical to their parents, even if the plant is self pollinated. Some combinations will result in different active chromosomes in the offspring - the classic example of this is two brown eyed parents who produce a blue eyed child because each of them carried one recessive blue eyed gene and the child ended up with two blue eyed genes. Anyway, biologists call all such organisms DIPLOID and this is the basic state of most living creatures capable of sexual reproduction.

However, sometimes, things go wrong during the production of the sex cells and they end up with double the number of chromosomes that they should have. In this case every pollen grain and ovule will have 2n chromosomes, that is two copies of each chromosome from each parent. A hippeastrum seed in which this happens will end up with 44 pairs of chromosomes, not 22 and this is called TETRAPLOIDY from the Latin tetra meaning four, because these plants now possess four time the haploid number of chromosomes rather than the original two sets. SO, what does this mean for the plant? Lets say that on Chromosome number 1 there are genes which control the speed of growth and size of the flower. The original diploid plant has one active set of these genes. They switch on and control the flower growth to a certain size. A tetraploid mutant of this plant has two active copies of the same genes so the plant gets treated to twice as much of everything: two times the amounts of plant hormones, receptors, growth factors; the lot.

Not surprisingly this tends to result in plants which are bigger and sturdier than the original diploid stock. Another side effect is the chances for more variation in any further generations. Not only does our tetraploid plant have two active copies of each chromosome, there is no reason for the two copies to be identical to each other, suddenly, instead of an either/or this gene/that gene situation you could have a trait which is off, half on, or full on depending on just which random combination the new plants have inherited. The tetraploid plants are also almost always extremely fertile in both the pollen and ovules. This is true, of course of the original diploid wild stock as well, but think what happens when you try to cross diploid with tetraploid - you end up with half a set of chromosomes which have nothing to pair up with! This leads to the following types of results - failure to produce seed, failure of seed to germinate correctly or the production of progeny which are themselves sterile, so you have a dead end, genetically speaking. As horticulturalists that doesn't bother us so much though, because we can usually fall back on vegetative propagation, should we actually produce something attractive from such a crossing, it is just that the results of getting any such offspring are low to begin with. Any plants which do result from such a combination of n + 2n chromosomes are called TRIPLOID and, though they are rare, there are a number of important triploid plants in cultivation, such as seedless watermelons and plantation bananas.

Horticultural practice has, over the years, discovered ways to artificially induce tetraploidy and other higher levels of polyploidy and tetraploid hippeastrums, daylilies and other such plants have made a significant impact on our garden landscapes since these techniques were discovered. I hope you find this information useful and here are links to a couple of pages you might like to look at if you want to study this further.

Plant Hybridisation: http://waynesword.palomar.edu/hybrids1.htm#polyploid
Hippeastrum Speadsheet: http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:JX8k8fw498sJ:www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/daehler/wra/full/Hippeastrum%2520puniceum%2520KHC.xls+hippeastrum+n%3D&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=au

The second one is a bit technical, but for anyone interested in producing their own hybrids there are some interesting nuggets of information buried in the spreadsheet cells

Ciao for now, KK.

Thanks Kaelkitty. An excellent post, and the spreadsheet is very interesting.

Link, Sweden(Zone 5b)

How shall I as an amateur know whitch is TETRAPLOIDY and DIPLOID, is there any lists. Or can I see it... of course not... I think.

It is little difficult for an Swedish to understand it in English all technial talk.

Can I cross an tetraploidy with an dipolid.
Or shall I cross an TET with and TET
and DIP with an DIP.
IS always ALL species DIP?

Every help is grateful.

I have try to pollinate so many Hippeastrum true the year, it is´nt often it success. I have try many time to polinate my Hippeastrum pardnum and even take pollen and give to any other hippestrum cultivars. With no success.

The Dutch amaryllis how can I figure out if it´s dutch. And all small from SA are they all gracilis-kinds are they TET.

It so much.... it go round and round in my head.

As always many many questions.

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Aschaffenburg, Germany

Sylvia,

As a rule, the majority of wild species are diploid. The huge Dutch are almost always tetraploid and were produced by using a chemical called colchicin which prevents the chromosomes from separating and producing half a set of chromosomes during meiosis. Some may have come about by a sudden mutation, too, of course. I recommend that you read up on the biological terms of meiosis and mitosis to get an idea what happens before and during fertilization. This may sound a bit complicated first, but I assume that they teach this in Sweden in biology class, too, at least they do it in Germany...

You can be 80% sure that small flowering amaryllis are dips or have a high percentage of dips in their genetic pool. I haven't crossed any amaryllis from Hadeco yet, but would assume that they readily cross with wild species, perhaps also with tetraploids.

The concept of crossing a tetraploid with a diploid, which would mathematically result in a triploid set of chromosomes is a wrong assumption in my opinion because if they were purely triploid they would not cross with diploids and tetraploids, but they do. I hope your confusion is not complete now, but sometimes we can sketch out our crossings in our heads and they should work, but they don't, and if they shouldn't they do....so I guess there is a degree of trial and error in this, too. I keep all the information I read on feasible crossings in an excel spreadsheet, so I don't have to make these crossings myself if others have already performed them before me. And, I am pretty sure that the bulbs on the market in America and Holland are not always genetically identical even if they have the same names...

Hope this helps.


Martin

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

This time I have sucessfully pollinated the double pink with pollen from 'Black Pearl'. I've no idea what I've done actually. I saved 'Black Pearl' pollen and applied it when the pink double came into bloom. I have seed trays ready for germination. I'm going to give 72 of the biggest seeds a try and see what happens. I'm retiring this spring and have a lot of time ahead of me to baby these things for the next few years.

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Pollinate everything with everything. Label accurately. Life is an adventure.

Float your seed in a glass of distilled water. Change it every two days. When the seed has a 1 inch leaf, pluck it out with tweezers and gently plant with similar crosses in a pot of moist grow mix. Spritz with water and a bit of fungicide when they get a bit dry.

Wait three years.

Congratulations. Hand out the cigars. Your a mommy/daddy.

:-)

*The three years bit is the hardest part.

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Wonderful advice which I plan to follow. Do you take the seed out of it's papery coating?

Never.

Aschaffenburg, Germany

I was wondering about the viability of seeds. I read in an old gardening book that 1 year after you have collected the seeds the viability equals 0. I seem to be able to confirm that none of my carefully collected seeds, which are about 9 months, have sprouted so far. The only batch I still have is the one I sowed last September, which made it ok through the winter.

Gofast

I'm trying to sprout some year-old seed right now. I'll let you know of their progress.

Winnsboro, TX

I'm certainly enjoying reading all this. Shoot I might even give this a try if I can come up with a couple more Amaryllis to try it with. I just have the plain old red and white one, and my lovely Appleblossom.

Thank you everyone for all the instructions, information and wonderful photos of the seed pods. I'm going to figure out away to give this a shot myself. Sounds like fun to me!
Happy Gardening, Marian

Houston, TX(Zone 9b)

I have an Amaryllis seed pod that has burst and the seeds are still in it. Now what do I do?

Thanks!

Throw them into a glass of water. Refresh it every few days. Plant them when they sprout. In a couple of years you'll have some new bulbs.

Ewing, VA

2009 is a good season for me. With the coming of the Japanese hippeastrums in the collection, a lot of the "almost impossible" became possible. The so called "rules" in ploidy, can be broken. You just have to look for the "missing link" betwen the tetraploids and diploids. It's amazing how a hippeastrum flower can tell you it's hidden secrets. Seek and you shall find. Open your eyes and look...

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Aschaffenburg, Germany

Oh good, and best of luck, Maria.

Here is a cross of Exotic Star with Jungle Bells which looks quite promising. Exotic star has now produced a third pedicel flowering just on top of the bulb and has about 7 little bulbs on the basal plate...

One is always in for a surprise with amaryllis or should I say nature because my Morning Glories are doing funny things this year, too. One boring white amaryllis which I bought for crosses with species at ebay half a dozen for one euro, was most certainly mislabelled and turns out to be Dancing Queen, which has produced both pollen and pistil.

Martin

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Houston, TX(Zone 9b)

Well, I didn't get to my seed pod before the seeds all fell out, so guess in a couple of years, I will have lots of amaryllis. I have 3 or 4 more seeds pods that are maturing right not for the same amaryllis, so evidently that one is pretty prolific. Anyone need any seeds if these pods are viable?

Solingen, Germany(Zone 7a)

IF the scape is so extremely short THEN I would perform a closer inspection on the bulb. I presume that an infestation by tarsonemid mites is the deeper reason, and certainly you will discover red streaks on the stunted scape. BTW, this is a good instructional picture, and everyone who observes the same phenomenon should be alarmed.

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