The worst draining soil I've ever seen!

On Sunday, I had my daughter dig a hole about 1 foot deep and a foot diameter. She has icky soil and I wanted to see just how bad it drains. They had rain later in the day, and today, WEDNESDAY, it was still half full of water. Everything around the hole is like concrete. I don't think there is one half inch of good soil in her yard. I'm overwhelmed at the chances of ever having decent dirt. I know to add compost, but it is going to take truck loads. Has anyone ever successfully turned around clay this bad?

That's pretty bad.Maybe she should think of building raised beds.

We have been raising the beds near the house, but we can't even get grass to grow, it is either a mud pit or concrete. I'm so frustrated.

That is really common in some places in this country. Heck, its that bad in my backyard all winter. What I would do is call your NRCS County Extention Office and talk to them about it. They will have ideas for you on how others in the area deal with it, and could come out for a look for free.

Compost is what one would do for the gardens, but for grass, I have no idea without seeing where you live.

Thanks, I'll give them a call.

cathy4 - I'm from St. Louis County, and the soil is just like it is here in Eastern Kansas. Clay, clay and more clay.

I'm not sure if this works as yet, but I just sprayed this stuff called Earth Right over our yard - it's made in Topeka for clay soils and is supposed to help a lot with drainage. I don't know if you have Westlake Ace Hardware stores there, but that's where I found it. Supposedly, you can drain a pond using the stuff. It looks to be mostly natural, but I'm not sure. I'll let you know how it works in another week or so - supposed to take a couple of weeks.

Please let me know how it works, my husband tried to till some leaf mulch from my stash into part of the dried mud and barely broke the surface.

For garden beds, top dressing is the way to go. Just lay down 1-3 inches of live compost, and don't sweat it. Check it out in the fall. The acids and bugs in the compost, will start to change the soil all by themselves. Add some more compost in the fall, and again in the spring. The soil will keep changing due to the bugs and acids in the compost, and the bugs will start churning the compost into the soil, further breaking down the clay texture.

One can also spread compost spring and fall on the lawn, 1/4 to 1/2" at a time. The same thing will happen all over the lawn.

If only we had lawn, lol. Thanks for the help.

Cathy,

I think the stuff is working. I just walked the area I sprayed, and there is no standing water there anymore. Plus, I was able to dig into the dirt without it clumping up in the first inch or so. The instructions say to use it again in the fall, and then there is other stuff with natural fertilizers you use on the grass or, in my case, flowers and veggies.

The stuff is pricey, but seems to be worthwhile. It has fish emulsion and other stuff in it. Obviously, I'm not terribly good at the terminology! LOL!

Thanks Beth, I'm going to try to find some, we've piped the gutters and still have standing water and mud after a small rain. Next week we hope to build a raised area for the kids play area.

First of all, this is international compost awareness week, so get to it. I read a lot about how someone's compost is not hot enough, we need more green, etc.... What you need is more compost. We are not talking quality here, we are talking quantity. I gather around 6,000 bags of leaves every year and my compost pile is 35 ft. in diameter and 8 ft. tall. It does not get turned and there is very little green but because of the size, it gets hot. If it does not break down by the time I want to use it I use it anyway, it's better than nothing. Gather any and all the organic matter you can get your hand on.

Next, you will never be real gardener if you do not understand that gardening begins with the soil. Sand is inert and clay is the most nutritious. Because of the molecular structure of clay the molecules lay flat and so very close together. The cure for hard clay is as simple as sprinkling of granular gypsum on top. It works a miracle. We pay around $11 for a 50 lb. bag and we get it at our local feed store. If applied twice, a few months apart, you will be able to dig with no problem. Rain will soak in, instead of run off.

Here is a picture of our driveway and our garden starts in the driveway.


kenboy

Garden growing in red clay.

Kenboy, you are absolutely right! It IS International Compost Awareness Week! Who knew?
http://www.compostingcouncil.org/section.cfm?id=25
So how come your town is called Big Sandy and you have clay soil? LOL
I agree that the "cure" is compost and more compost, and I also use mine before it is completely rotted if I need to. Anything to aid the big sand bar called Cape Cod!

Is it possible that drainage is affected by not only the type of soil, but where the surface is in relationship to the water table (is that what it's called?)

I signed up for a plot in a community garden this year. The plots are on a slight slope. With the rain we've had for days now, everything is muddy, but the plots at the bottom of the slope have standing water on the surface. The ones at the top of the slope do not seem to have the same puddles. (Mine's halfway up and I'm copying my "neighbors" by building hills to plant in.)

What is the reason for that? And does it affect you, Cathy4? Or is it the bad soil alone?

NisiNJ

Water does stand in the yard when it rains and yes, spring this year has been very wet. We are raising the play area for the kids with timbers and mulch. On the slope at the back of the yard I've added small junipers, red bud trees and perennials, amending the soil as I plant. We only need thousands more, it is a wide yard. SIL had dug in some large boulders to break up the ruts starting on the slope and to add some interest. Hopefully this will slow the erosion from the water coming down from the neighbor's yard. He also piped their front gutter out to the street, so that water doesn't contribute to the side yard mud. (the uphill neighbor won't do his, I even offered to buy the pipe.)

I don't remember who it was who came out, but they were told that the dirt was subsoil (I'm not sure about the word). This fall we will be collecting every bag of leaves for miles around, and have found a source for rotted horse manure. Daughter has a compost pile and the neighbors are bringing their grass clippings, etc. It should be an interesting look this fall when we spread all this stuff. Actually, some of the grass clippings are being spread lightly every week, they break down quickly in the sun.

Good luck with your garden NisiNJ, they are worth all the effort!

Cathy4, have you talked to your county inspector about the situation with the neighbor who doesn't want to cooperate to help the drainage problem? In this state, he would either fix it, or get some jail time, but that seems to vary from one area to the other. Wouldn't hurt to ask..:)_

This is a subdivision that was started before the housing crunch, and it is out in the country, no real governing body. The builder has gone belly-up, the subdivision fees are long gone (missing?) and there are many lots sitting empty. Several families have walked away from their homes because of the crazy mortgages they took. Most of the people remaining are trying hard to keep the neighborhood looking good, but some don't care. My husband is looking into drain tiles or something to install right at the edge of the property to catch and channel the neighbor's gutter water to a french pit. It is pitiful, they need to move back near me to get special education for my grandson, but their house is worth much less than they owe now, and who would buy it for full price when so many of the houses are sitting there empty for 1/2 the cost? Sorry, I think I went off in another direction....haha.

Cathy, When I read your initial post of Apr 16, I couldn't help thinking that I was asking the same questions in this forum just a few months earlier. We moved into a new home July 2007. The native soil is clay and was like concrete from the drought. The soil that was used to grade around the house was subsoil, full of weed seeds, and water ran off of it to lower areas or pooled where there was a depression. I started putting my veggie and fruit peelings and tea grounds on the area beside my deck, where there was nothing but bare earth like you have. It was the small start of my compost pile/lasagne garden. In November I put down sheets of paper from the move and piled what I had of composted kitchen scraps and some bags of potting soil and some composted mulch on the bed. In March, I could actually dig into the soil with a trowel. I planted a few potted shrubs I had from the balcony of the apartment we moved from. Now, two months later, with just that little bit of amending of the soil and some spring rains and this previously inert and impenetrable soil is a little garden! I even found worms, which was very exciting because it indicates that there is life in the soil. I never would have believed it. The small beds I'm making now are all the lasagne type, and I am planting in them just as soon as they are made--not waiting until next year because I just have to have some flowers and butterflies. My beds are not the deep ones some people have because I just haven't accumulated enough material, but I'm bringing in leaf mould and wood chips, grass clippings, and kitchen scraps, anything organic. It's simply amazing to me how the earth can improve with so quickly with so little assistance. I hear your frustation and hope you can take some comfort in that you are loving, caring parents who are very supportive of your daughter and her family.

My DH made me a curvy path from one side of the yard to the other so I could cross it in my electric wheelchair. (Awwww.) This was our first venture in the paving business (clearing throat) and while it works perfectly well for me, I just noticed yesterday or so that the sand he lay the pavers in has slid a little bit downhill, out from under the pavement and into what used to be bad garden soil on the downhill side of the path. So it's not clay - I don't think - but it acts like it, it leaves footprints and sucks your shoe off. It's sand mixed with whatever was there before. New England dirt is not typically clay, it's typically rocky, but this house was built in the 1950s, so who knows what junk the builders left behind. DH is no longer able bodied enough to do much amending, and naturally, we're up to our necks in student loans with 2 of the 4 people in my house being full-time college students! Finances are strained at best. Ideas?

Carrielamont:

I'm not sure I understand your question (Forgive me.) Do you want to fix what's underneath the pavement or amend your soil for gardening? If it's the latter, there are people who love lasagna method, which would not require much expense or physical exertion (I don't think--because there's no digging). Or if (I'm assuming) those college students are young, could they do some of the potential physical labor for amending?

In his original book, Square Foot Gardening, Mel Bartholemew says if there's one thing he would recommend adding to any soil it's COARSE vermiculite because it 1) lasts forever, 2) improves drainage, and 3) provides slow-release calcium, potassium and magnesium. I just bought a 6 cubic foot bag of coarse vermiculite from Griffin's Suppy for about $20. It is a HUGE bag, but doesn't weigh a lot because it's mostly air. There are Griffin's Supply outlets in Tewksbury MA (978-851-4346), Latham NY (518-786-3500) and Cheshire CT (203-699-0919).

Alternatively, the half-price policies for broken bags of peat moss at Lowe's and Home Depot are a godsend.

Notice that all my information is only from what I've read. Other people on DG are more knowledgeable, and I will defer to their EXPERIENCE.

NisiNJ

LOL one of the college students is my 56 y o DH who has a literally broken back, with chronic bad pain. The other is my 17 y o daughter, who is planning to get a job - first she has to graduate from HS, tomorrow!

But I'm not sure that I even know what my problem is! The other day, DH went to pull a dandelion or something and left a gaping size 12 hole. That's the first time I realized that all this sand had slid out. I just thought I'd hang around here and see if anything else similar had been posted.

Thanks for your good suggestion about vermiculite. It might even be a good idea even with smaller, less efficient bags. I don't think it's a very large area affected - hoping not, at least.

Carrie

Carrie:

Congratulations to your daughter. I'm 56, too, coincidentally. Good for your DH to go to college. I'm interested in knowing what he is studying, even though that is off-topic. Boomers rule! (Unfortunately, the youngsters who run Madison Avenue and Hollywood don't believe that.) Again, IMHO and off-topic.

The reason that M Bartholomew was recommending the big bags of vermiculite (he was talking about 4 cubic foot size), besides cost per foot, was that the COARSE version came in only the larger size bag. He wrote that coarse grade is much better for the purpose of aeration and drainage than medium or fine. Just his opinion. Agway's carries it, too, but I don't know the grade, or if there is one in your area. I am always splitting costs of gardening things in larger sizes with my neighbor; a neighbor of yours might have similar soil problems.

Again, not from experience, only reading --I think I read somewhere (DG?) that sand is actually a good amendment, but only if you add it in sufficient quantities. Add too little to clay and you get cement. So, maybe, add MORE sand (?????)

I'll leave you alone now so that you can prepare for the Big Day tomorrow.

NisiNJ

But we're not starting with clay, which is why this is probably the worst thread for me to be on! I'm not sure what adding sand does.

He's been teaching music all his life, now he's studying to get a teaching certificate.

Carrie

Hey cathy looks like you will have to install some sort of sub soil drain. I think it would be far too costly to do anything else. We have a couple of drains on our property and they do work well. Then apply loads of organic material as suggested by others.



Mike

Thanks Mike