'mycorrhizal fungi'

I have just been reading about a product that promotes mycorrhizal fungi - used in granular form when planting out/potting on plants, it claims to promote extensive root growth. The particular product I am looking at, Rootgrow is a UK based product, and says that all of its innoculant fungii are UK products. What do you think about this?

They also do a second product called Rootfeed which they are saying is a humate (not sure if I have that right, didn't have my notebook with me, just my glasses) - used as a liquid feed.

I do grow on organic principles, but wondering how this fits in? Sounded interesting, but in need of more info before really considering using it.

I believe this material is considered to be organic, but you'll have to hear it from someone who has more knowledge than I. I just purchased a similar product because I read how beneficial it is for soil. Apparently, if you don't have mycorrhzia (spelling?) in your soil, you just don't have healthy soil for growing. I'm a sucker for anything that will bring beneficial fungi to my newly-prepared bed that is stark naked, except for a covering of mulch, and awaiting the warmth of spring and healthy seedlings (from my lips to God's ears). Don't you just love this forum.

Certainly do, Pam - and thanks for the info and opinion. I do feel out on a limb - would love to try it, but don't want to add something I'll regret.

What I am also wondering - if I have been using my home grown compost, along with very well rotted manure, both with loads of lovely home grown red worms (and their castings) - do I already have a full cadre of mycorrhizal fungii? Would this be a matter of gilding gold and painting lilies? The other point I was wondering about - I use purchased/bagged peat free compost for seedlings and potting on in the greenhouse - if it is sterile enough for no seeds/bad fungii, does this mean that it could do with a dosing of the mycorrhizal feed?

Any thoughts?

I believe good compost ammended soil can carry the spores to facilitate this relationship. The innoculents are more of a gaurantee of building a relationship with your plant roots much like using a legume innoculant. Often you find legumes growing with nodules indicationg they developed a relationship without an innoculant. The same can be said for benefcial fungi. Adding an innoculant just increases the likelyhood of a symbiotic relationship, it does not mean that a relationship would not be formed in the soil. Established garden soil is more likely to have the needed organisms than a brand new bed or a container environment.
If you use this inoculant I don't think you have to reuse it in the same location again. These things have a way of establishing themselves.

Thanks Bryan, I think this is kinda in line with my thinking.

Do you think it would be beneficial to use in greenhouse growing where I am using sterilized soil?

And may I add another question.

would compost tea give me the same effect, but actually with the fungi that is particular to my garden? I am assuming that the fungi has slight/dramatic variations by regions - since the packaging clearly states 'uk product with uk produced fungi'

Any thoughts?

I just found this ad for one of the products (I'm not advocating this, just showing what they are saying - this is for discussion, not advice)

RootGrow Mycorrhizal Fungi Handy 75 Gram Sachet

This amazing new product supports new planting, by reducing, repotting problems in most plants,

Rootgrow supports plants during dry periods and actively extends the plants natural root system and nutrient absorption.

90% of all plants have depended on a beneficial group of fungi called mycorrhizal fungi to transport nutrients and water to their roots.

In the average garden it may take up to 5 years for these fungi to naturally colonise freshly planted plants. However if rootgrow is sprinkled in the bottom of the planting hole at planting time this effect will be achieved in 2-4 weeks,

Rootgrow is a completely natural product containing UK origin mycorrhizal fungi.

Mix 1:20 with the growing medium if small plants are being grown together (e.g. strawberries).

Plants suitable include roses, all garden shrubs, garden flowers, bulbs and vegetables.

Rootgrow will not help brassicas, rhododendrons, azaleas, orchids or heathers

The benefits to plants are,

one treatment lasts forever (as the plant grows the fungal partner grows)
rootgrow is easy to use (simply sprinkle in the bottom of the planting hole)
earlier and better growth (in 2-4 weeks after planting the mycorrhizal fungi can increase the active root area of plants by up to 700 times)
better uptake of fertilisers when applied after planting (the network of mycorrhizal fungi act like a net catching nutrients and preventing leaching)
increased uptake of obscure trace elements from the soil leading to increased plant health (the ultra fine fungal mycelium can unlock nutrients from the soil)
reduced mortality of plants especially specimen plants and plants that are difficult to establish (the extended root system feeds the plant from very early on in its life)
better drought tolerance (due to the vast fungal root making best use of all available soil moisture)


This message was edited Mar 22, 2008 7:31 PM

In a sterile soil I believe that the fungi would still colonize the roots therefore I can see a benefit in the greenhouse application. I have also seen it advertised as an ingredient in some seed and potting mixes with advertisements showing increased performance.
As for Compost tea, I think this is a great way to add organisms to the soil. If you use a fermented tea you will get spores, if you use aerated teas you should get living fungi. I use the old fashioned two week old teas myself to water in transplants My current veggie garden is less than a year old but seems to be full of life.

thanks Bryan - i was also thinking about trying out the aerated teas and using it to water in for seeds/seedlings. By 'two week old', does this mean you just leave your compost teabag for 2 weeks in the water?

I simply fill a bucket halfway full with finished homemade compost and fill the bucket to the top with water and let it sit for 2 weeks. Some would say this is more leachate than tea since the living organisms soon die from anaerobic conditions but when fungi and bacteria are in stressful conditions they provide future generations in spores. These spores are part of the leachate that I use and my plants are observably populated with active rhizospheres. Aerated tea is great, I simply have a personal opinion that properly aged leachate is easier and effective enough and for home use safe. Here is an article on aerated compost teas and pathogens I hope everyone takes to heart. http://www.newfarm.org/research/dec04/122304/e.coli.shtml

I apologize to the original poster, this has drifted far off topic and I fear that this will both pollute the thread and bury this information at the same time. I will state my opinion and if we continue to have interest regarding this part of the discussion I will start another thread.


E-Coli is part of our own digestive system and that of most Mammals. I am sure a pathologist would be better suited to answer this. It is not the end of the world to find E-Coli in our soil, but a foliar feed of E-coli containing tea on leafy greens would probably be ill advised. What I take to heart from the article is that a compost tea older than 72 hours is less likely to have E-Coli surviving than a 24 hour tea. Seeing how most of us aren't going to use a specialized compost sold for ACT(aerated Compost teas)nor have our compost analyzed for pathogens we need to be aware of the potential for that Microbe explosion that occurs with ACT and especially when boosted with Molasses could include pathogenic organisms.
At some point between marketing aeration systems and alot of differing research, a Synonym of Aerobic= good Anaerobic=bad has developed in our perceptions.

Fermented products such as Bokashi and some of the key ingredients used in bio-dynamic methods illustrate that this is not always true. That fermented or anaerobically derived product can be a very useful product and or inoculant.

I am not in anyway stating that ACT is not a great way to spread Microbes and fungi around with less compost material. I am stating that we must not make carte blanc statements about the efficacy or safety on compost teas based simply on wither it is aerated or not. There are plenty of users of both methods that have had plenty of positive anecdotal success with either method and I don't question their success as I expect they would not question mine. The point is that we must al be carefull of the ingredients and methods we use to prepare something we add to our edibles.
A good example of the wrong way to make compost tea would be to use porly made feedlot manure compost(with strong anti biotic resistant strains of E-Coli) in a mollasses spiked tea and apply it in 12 hours. I would expect bad things in this extreme scenario.





This message was edited Mar 22, 2008 10:36 PM

Bryan, I don't find this off topic - rather it is an extension of my questioning the initial product. I am just gathering 'research' before introducing something I might later regret or not need.

Your information is extremely useful and makes me think that while the Mycorrhizal products may be very useful, and safe, it may not be necessary in my garden's case. Which brings me back to my initial interest in the use of compost teas/leachate. And that brings me to your very interesting additional info.

So, for me, not off piste at all. Thank you for your extremely interesting input.

Laurie1, the beneficial mycorrhizae are easily damaged and destroyed by tilling. So whether your garden already has a healthy supply will be dependent on your gardening style.

You might find the information at this website helpful:
http://www.mycorrhizae.com/index.php?cid=387

The site at this link has some great video clips showing you the activity going on in your soil. I especially like the series that shows the beneficial mycorrhizae capturing and strangling a predatory nematode.
http://www.mycorrhizalproducts.com/index.php?cid=103&

ohh, gardenmermaid - capturing and destroying! this is 'street' gardening!! They'll be making a new tv series - CSI garden!

Thanks for the links - right now it is morning and that sun is shining for the first day in a week - I'm heading outside. To do a bit of planting and cleaning up after the winds/rain/snow.

I've watched the mycorrhizae.com videos--loved the brave cowboy-fungae lassoing the evil nematodes!--and the claims for these products look very convincing (plus now I know how to pronounce the word, lol)
So here's a true newbie question: What's the difference between this sort of application, and applying EM1 to my soil (as described in the Bokashi discussion threads.) Are they completely different organisms? Does impoverished soil need both sorts of treatments?

It's my understanding the Mycorrhiza has a symbiotic relationship with the host tree/shrub. It increases the host's root systems abilities to gather and break down sugars and other nutrients used by the trees. I've use mycorrhiza fungi under my magnolias and black walnuts. for years. I read in a Mother Earth years ago, that sometimes trees that have a tendency to be alleopathic seem to predisposed to diseases related to poor nutrition as they mature and that the mycorrhiza seems to aid the tree in increasing the supply of nutrients. So we tried it and it appeared to be real help, the magnolias started to produce bigger better looking bloom. Not a real scientific experiment, but I got the results I was looking for. LOL

On the other hand the fungi/bacteria/furry little critters found in the Bokashi mix seem to be a whole nother group of friendlies. Everything I've read on the subject suggest the fungi/bacteria are added to and already present in the EM1 mixture. By making the extender you are just creating more of the same using the formula for the mix.
Evidently, the molasses and bran act as a "feeding system" for the Bokashi fungi/bacteria. It's a complicated subject and I'll probably have to go back and re-read it again, there is so much information to absorb and apply contained on that site. Well worth the effort, the whole idea makes excellent sense to me. I just know from experience that heathier my soil, the fewer problems I have with disease and insect pests. Mostly easily controllable.

The words properly made are key to any form of tea making. All teas that are less than aerobic are representative of unfinished elements found in unfinished compost. When they go into the soil they still must be finished by the soil born biology. In the case of properly made aerobic tea one should not fear any reasonable amount of molassess because in the aerobic state the biology explosion in numbers use it all up as food. Furthermore most boosters for teas are largely molasses at a higher cost due to processing. Beyond the carbs in black strap molasses are fifty or more other soil building helpers.

All soils and I believe even all finished composts contain both good and bad biological partners all the way from bacteria and fungi up through amoeba to nematode. However it is also said that the bad can not live in a properly aeriated brew. Therefore if the brew is placed within two to four hour and the oxygen levels are maintained there will be little or no reversion to the anaerobic state. Others have correctly said the good guys simply out number the bad guys and control the bad guys. What is placed on the plants and into the soil from an aerobic brew is just simply an explosion of all the biology players that by conversion are quite some time beyond other teas in their development or conversion through humus to humic acids even forms beyond humic acids we know little about even today. Even beyond humic acids as acted upon by Mycorrhiza to take elements of plant food to the roots. The roots then expell exactly what they want into a specialized root zone or supported bacterial zone where the food processing is finished. The plant then takes up the food it needs and can grow in the process of using it.

The only difference is the possible greater blend of elements in manure based, soil and plant made compost. When it is properly finished into humus it is far beyond other tea bases which must somehow be converted from the anaerobic state through whatever conversions it takes to get to the point of actual plant pick up and use. Anything that rots reguardless of how long it takes all ends up at the same place in close association with the roots. It just takes longer because the other teas are not to the point of humus or humic acids when they are placed into the ground. It is like the old question which is better a whole fish going into the soil or cold processed fish oil.

I have seen many weird and extended beyond truth claims for all kinds of tea. One just has to know by reading and sorting throught the baloney to deside which steps to take to build better soil in each instance. Most small growers like gardeners or small truck farms can effectively now use organic methods and bring their soil back to a very healthy state in a few years. Time depends on the conditions when the decision to stop using the manufactured poison salts fertilizers was made.

I will now try to copy and paste what is really in black strap molasses. You will not find these elements in this amount or value in processed molasses.

Edited to fix some spellies and whatever else I could see.

This message was edited Mar 28, 2008 9:25 PM

This message was edited Mar 28, 2008 9:29 PM

This message was edited Mar 28, 2008 9:38 PM

MOLASSES COMPOSITION
UNITED STATES SUGAR CORPORATION

Molasses & Liquid Feeds Division
P.O. Drawer 1207
Clewiston, Florida 33440
09/29/03

Typical Composition of
U. S. Sugar's Heavy Mill Run Cane Molasses
Brix, spindle 86.0 degrees
Weight/gallon 11.8-12.0 lbs
Nitrogen 1.01 %
Crude Protein 6.30 %
Total Sugars 48.3 %
Density (as fed) 11.8 lbs/gal
Dry Matter 76.5 %
Moisture 23.5 %
Ash 16.0 %
Organic Matter 62.5 %
Reducing Substances, as Dextrose 11.5 %
Sucrose 35.9 %
Fructose 5.6 %
Glucose 2.6 %
pH 4.9 - 5.4
Calcium 0.8 %
Phosphorus negligible
(not for use)
Potassium 4.2 %
Chloride 2.1%
Magnesium 0.27 %
Sulfur 0.78 %
Sodium 0.09 %
Copper 14 ppm
Iron 130 ppm
Manganese 5 ppm
Zinc 8 ppm
Cobalt negligible
Iodine negligible
Selenium negligible
Biotin 3 ppm
Folic Acid 0.04 ppm
Inositol 6000 ppm
Calcium Pantothenate 60 ppm
Pyridoxine 4 ppm
Riboflavin 2.5 ppm
Thiamine 1.8 ppm
Niacin 500 ppm
Choline 700 ppm

I use mollasses. Just not in my teas. I use it in foliar applications(great addition of potasium) and feed the soil with it by injecting it in my drip irrigation system. Mollasses is a great addition to the soil and to the plants where I want the bioligy to prosper. A bucket and the soil are completely different environments. My teas(or fermented tea product) and my high solids fertilizer (fish emulsion) get poured onto the soil by hand.
As long as we are all getting results we are happy with there are a million ways to do it correctly.