My 6 BLRW's are all sick now, plus 3 buff orp's, 2 white rocks, and 3 Silver-pencilled Wyandottes. They can't really get to their feet, and if they can make it to the feeder, they are on their hocks or laying at the feeder. They will drink a ton if you put them near the waterer, but don't seek it out on their own. For that matter, there is only one or maybe two that will pursue eating on their own, but if you put them near the food they will eat. They have watery poop, with some indications that there may be more of the white stuff on it than normal, maybe not. They lay on their breast, eyes closed, most of the time. The healthy chicks will run away from you - these will not. If you pick one up they are limp, and can't stand on their own, although they do remain upright on their breasts. No signs of any respiratory ailments whatsoever, no pasty-butts, no lesions of any kind. Some peep very weakly when you hold them. Their legs do not appear to be paralyzed in anyway, as they will move their legs and wings if you turn them on their side or backs.
Now let me tell you why I suspect Botulism is possible - I am a taxidermist, and the room where I keep the chicks used to have some decomposing moose skulls in there. Part of my business is rendering skulls with flesh-eating beetles, for museum or personal display. The skulls were stored there in preparation for the beetle tank. Although there never were any beetles in there, there were housefly maggots crawling on the skulls. There were some old blood stains on the wooden floor, which I presumed would not bother the chicks. Today, I removed all the chicks and bedding, and proceeded to bleach and scrub the floor, then replace the chicks and add new bedding. I also added some ACV to their water to boost their immunity.
Can anyone advise? This really sucks...Scott
Botulism symptoms in my chicks
Hi Scott, botulism is anaerobic and is usually in the soil, so I am not sure why it would be a problem with taxidermy. I am so sorry about the chicks. I am sure separating them from the other healthy chicks will be best for both. If it is not a viral disease, maybe antibiotics will help. They sometimes have them for animals at the feedstore--or find an avian vet (hard to do). I am sure others can give you better advice.
scott, check your d-mail
Scott, I found this site which does include a discussion of botulism and, to some extent, treatment. They needed to be in contact with decaying organic material or have eaten insects that fed on it. It sounds like recovery is possible. Hope you are getting all the help you need.
http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/disbact.htm
Scott there are bird antibiotics sold at pet stores. I use to raise cockatiels in large numbers and always got it at those places. Been a while so I can't remember the name. Regular vets aren't much help with birds. They get very little schooling on the subject. If you can reach an avain vet at least by phone they can point you in the right direction.
I did a google search for avian vets in Maine results are here http://www.aav.org/vet-lookup/locate-vet2.php?query_field=state&search_string=ME
Hope your chicks pull through!
MollyD
how terrible, Scott. hang in there, you and some chicks will recover!
tf
Thanx Molly - I appreciate the info. Will try the pet store after I glean a little more ammunition. So odd that the BLRW's are all sick...Scott
Cuckoogirl - didn't see any d-mail can you re-send please?
Just found it
if botulism is a bacteria [i think so], than wouldn't colloidal silver help? would be worth a try, esp with thos enice breeds you have there. hope they are better.
tf
It isn't botulism, I believe that cuckoogirl got me pointed in the right direction - another forum (BYC) has extensive information about this "mystery disease". I am not the only one experiencing this - and the end results are not good! Search sick chicks on there and see for yourselves. I am getting in touch with the dept of Ag and sacrificing my sick chicks for necropsy. Hope that my losses end there. I am not buying from hatcheries again, just from breeders. Thanks everyone for all your help...Scott
i hear you. so sorry.
can this have anything to do with the 30% losses others have gotten from their hatchery chicks?
Hi Scott, I read the BYC forum and am not buying cold weather as the explanation for your chicks and some of the others symptoms. It develops too late and seems neurological at least in part. Odd that it doesn't seem contagious. Maybe incubation problems? I just don't understand. Please, let us know what the necropsy says. I am sorry you are going through this.
i'm a member on byc also although maybe to shipping in cold weather for some it is to many people haveing the same probs and i don't buy it either everyones r dieing due to it. i think it is brooder nemonia. also known in the info below. mabe something in this will help. so sorry to hear about ur little ones. :0( i also think it is due to week and very poor stock. as a pa state liceasended poultry tech i can assure u something is not right with how many people have been looseing chicks from the same company within so close of a time spand.
so sorry,
silkie
Aspergillosis
Synonyms: brooder pneumonia, mycotic pneumonia, fungal pneumonia, Aspergillus . When the source of the disease is the hatchery, the disease is called brooder pneumonia. In older birds, the disease is called aspergillosis.
Species affected: All birds (domestic poultry, pigeons, canary and zoo bird species), animals, humans, and plants are susceptible.
Clinical signs: Aspergillosis occurs as an acute disease of young birds and a chronic disease in mature birds. Young birds have trouble breathing and gasp for air. Characteristically, there are no rales or respiratory sounds associated with aspergillosis. Feed consumption decreases. Occasionally there is paralysis or convulsions caused by the fungal toxin. Mortality in young birds averages 5-20 percent, but may be as high as 50 percent. Mature birds also have respiratory distress, reduced feed consumption, and may have a bluish and dark color of the skin (cyanosis). Nervous disorders, such as twisted necks, may occur in a few birds (see Table 1 ). Mortality in mature birds is usually less than 5 percent.
Transmission: Aspergillosis is caused by a fungus. The fungus grows well at room temperature and higher. All litter and nest materials (peat moss, peanut hulls, sawdust, peat, bark, straw) have been known to have been contaminated with aspergillus. Feed and water should be suspect when attempting to identify the source of contamination.
Treatment : There is no cure for infected birds. The spread can be controlled by improving ventilation, eliminating the source of the infection, and adding a fungistat (mycostatin, mold curb, sodium or calcium propionate, or gentian violet) to the feed and/or copper sulfate or acidified copper in the drinking water for 3 days. The litter can be sprayed lightly with an oil-base germicide to control dust and air movement of fungal spores.
Prevention: It is important to thoroughly clean and disinfect the brooding area between broods. Use only clean litter, preferably soft wood shavings. Do not use sawdust, litter high in bark content, or shavings that have been wet.
added note NO CEDAR it is toxic.
Was just reading in another thread (the goat one) that McMurray is using new breeders this year. That might just be the problem.
No NEW sick ones this morning!
Silkie,
Brooder pneumonia symptoms sound close, but they aren't having any apparent trouble breathing. That doesn't mean that they're getting all the oxygen they need, I suppose there is no way for anyone to gauge that. Certainly a lack of oxygen would explain the lethargic, intoxicated symptoms of the birds. I am trying to contact someone at the Ag dept this am to take the sick ones in for testing. Will keep everyone posted.
Thanks for all your warm thoughts, everyone!
So sorry, Maine. These are the exact symptoms I had
before I lost 1/3 of my chicks from McMurray. A knowledgeable
game bird breeder suggested aspergillosis to me, as well.
This concerned me, as I have been very attentive to their
bedding and environment, allowing no wet or dirty bedding
of any kind. They did not gasp for air, but a curious thing
was that their crop was puffed up and spongy. Not full of
feed, almost as if filled with air. I do not believe it is your
environment, at all. I spoke with my vet, a really good vet
but still not certain of his bird experience, and he had never
heard of this. I want very much to hear results of the necropsy.
I posed our bird symptoms to many websites and forums,
and could not get a definative answer. Please keep us posted.
I love 4paws. I love Miss Robbi.;o) I wish health to Princess
Kathy.
In parrots aspergillosis is a deadly airborne disease. Every bird grower fears it and they will take major precautions to avoid bringing it home to their flocks. Even to the point of stripping off clothing and showering after visiting other bird owners.
New introductions to the flock are kept quarantined for several months to avoid introducing it.
I fought one outbreak of it once. It was introduced when I was left with an orphaned clutch of eggs and borrowed a brooder from a friend. She neglected to tell me it had housed turkey eggs just before. Turkeys are considered major carriers of this disease. The babies that hatched were all ill and behave the way people here are describing their chicks. At that time I had an avain vet who made house calls (with 50+ birds I could hardly take them to his office!). He had to treat all my birds, some were on the verge of dying. The newly hatched babies all died. I had to spend a month giving my flock antibiotics every day. Eventually they recovered but it was the scariest time in my life.
MollyD
Yikes! Their crops are empty, but not necessarily filled with air. They are spongy feeling though. But I don't know what a normal empty crop is supposed to feel like, so they may be normal.
I spoke with MMH this am, and they gave me this much info:
Birds hatched the week of March 1st were affected.
They don't know what the problem is.
Treat whole flock with Terramycin for 5-7 days.
Isolate birds with symptoms.
Take a body count when I determine this situation has run its course and advise them if I want a refund or replacement.
They were extremely courteous and accountable for the problem.
No other info is available.
Now I'm verrrry afraid! My chicks from MMH are due next week with my BLRW's!!! How can they not know what the problem is if they know when it happened??? What would you do if you were me, cancel? Sooooo Sorry about your chicks!!!!!!!! Keep us posted.
You have to respect that MMH is taking responsibility for the problem. They probably have massive legal liability fears. I suspect it is one of their new breeders that is the cause and that is why they don't yet know exactly what the problem is. I was thinking maybe Newcastles or Mereks disease--but they should be more contagious--Aspergillosis makes sense.
They are behaving in a reasonably responsible manner but as mommahen10 says if they can isolate the when of the problem they should know the how. Sounds like they know what it is from their advice but don't want to label it. I wonder how their brooders got infected?
MollyD
as a preventative [i am not a licensed anything!], could garlic, minced in the ACV, then added to drinking wtare, be of any help?
this is a sad situation, and i hope action is taken and it gets resolved.
if i had a pending order with a hatchery, ANY hatchery, that begins to have serious problems with diseases [is this ocnsidered infectious?], i would quickly cancel my order. also, if i were buying chicks from a feed store, i woul dinquire what hatchery they came from first.
i can only imagine that this "breeder" source is also supplying eggs to other hatcheries. one in particular i can think of, in New Mexico where requirements are slack.
i am sad for all of you, and for the poor baby chicks. and fortunate that my sex links, who came from new mexico, are fine. but i am going to call the feed store they came from and see if there were any problems with the other 180 chicks...
This message was edited Mar 25, 2008 12:13 PM
My chicks from McMurray were hatched Feb 9th. If
they say such and such was affected, then they know they
are the problem, and that is enough for me not to order
from them again. I kept some affected chicks with the others,
I isolated some. I did not find it contageous, which aspergillosis
is not. It was not a home born problem, as I kept quail and
home hatched chicks in seperate brooders in the same room,
and cared for them equally.
Mommahen, I have not heard any bad feedback from
Ideal hatchery located in Cameron Tx. I have read that
Daylilydaddy had the same problems, and he ordered 250
chicks of several breeds, and lost all of his crested polish,
which were one breed I had affected.
Thank you so much, Maine, for your added info from
McMurray. I have been researching my problem for weeks,
visited many bird sites- not just chicken, and asked a lot of
questions. I do not believe antibiotics will clear up aspergillosis
as it is fungal, not bacterial. I was not able to bring any of my
affected chicks back once they showed symptoms. Someone
has dropped the ball big time at McMurray, and I have to
think of something else they may have that I want to order
for the credit they gave me. It won't be chicks, for sure.
i love bleek. i love miss robbi. may princess kathy have
a clear day full of smiles.;o)
MOMMAHEN........ i think you should cancel. I just found another from Feb on BYC posting about the same thing. Sounds like they have some problems going on there.
Here's an article from Bird Talk magazine which I think can be generally applied to all birds including fowl http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-diet-and-health/bird-medical-conditions/recognize-bird-illness-signs.aspx
a little bit more on disease that affect baby birds:
http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-species/baby-birds/pediatric-concerns.aspx
They talk about how it can affect how a bird vocalizes:
"Aspergillosis is one of the most common respiratory diseases that causes a change in vocalization. “With this infection, usually in the trachea, the Aspergillus organism (a fungus) will grow inside the trachea and restrict air flow. This will change the sound of the voice, may prevent vocalization completely, and even cause death due to asphyxiation,” Burkett explained. Aspergillosis may cause the bird’s voice to suddenly turn raspy or hoarse, or the bird may now be making an involuntary “squeak” or high-pitched whistle, which it never made before." this is at http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-diet-and-health/bird-medical-conditions/silent-birds.aspx?cm_sp=InternalClicks-_-RelatedArticles-_-bird-diet-and-health/bird-medical-conditions/silent-birds
very brief article on asperigillosis:
http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-diet-and-health/bird-medical-conditions/bird-medical-conditions-2004-02-25-5705.aspx?cm_sp=InternalClicks-_-RelatedArticles-_-bird-diet-and-health/bird-medical-conditions/bird-medical-conditions-2004-02-25-5705
a good one on how birds breath:
http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-news/bird-research-news/bird-respiratory-system.aspx
people don't realize how birds breath is so different from the way we breath so they tend to hold them tightly around the chest area not realizing they're suffocating them.
I guess that's a lot for now. Hope it helps.
MollyD
Scott.....we are kinda close on the map. If you have an incubator.....i could provide you with healthy eggs. I have ee standard and bantam. I have silkies too for bantam. For big birds i have SLW.......Buff Orp.....blk Australorp.....but the rooster that guards them is an EE bantam......so its hit or miss for fertility....LOL. I watch the eggs and it looks like he gets an A for trying anyway. So if you ever want any of them........its an option for you.
I thing my Blue splash silkie rooster is finally having an interest in my ee bantam splash hen........so i put a couple eggs under a broody to see how that works out :)
Wendy
If I understand correctly, MMH (and other big hatcheries) contract(s) out some of their production to smaller breeders. If all the chicks that are affected come from one of these breeders, McMurray may know where and when the problem originated, but might not yet have a definitive diagnosis--but strong enough suspicions to give advice. In my business we have to contract out some production, and we are responsible for the product, but if our "contracted supplier" messes up all we can do is take responsibility and never use them again. If MMH does this, I would respect them. However I would not order chicks from them right now--and I think all the advice in this forum to go to breeders and not big hatcheries whenever you can is probably excellent.
This message was edited Mar 19, 2008 10:44 AM
Catscan,
I'm pretty new to chickens. How do I know a good breeder from a poor one? How do I find them?
Thanks!
MollyD
Hi Molly, I'm pretty new too--but you learn a lot on this forum. I think you have to do research to find a good breeder--GardenWatchdog helps with responsible hatcheries. If you post a question about good breeders for the variety you want, I'm sure others can help identify a good one.
Molly, one way is to SEE the parents of the chicks you are buying. And if you can see the facilities that helps too. Otherwise, to see if they are true to breed type, refer to feathersite.com ...
i am hoping that this new "breeder" had an exclusive contract with MMH, so that other hatcheries aren't affected...
Scott, how will this affect the eggs in the bator? are they in the same room? I suppose just making a new brooder fo rthem should suffice...
One way to find breeders is visit a site like eggbid.com
you can email the seller and ask lots of questions about
their breeding program. Ask to see pictures of their facilities.
If they are too busy to give good answers, I would avoid
them as someone who doesn't care about good practices.
Most I have contacted have given a wealth of info and been
very willing to help. Some will ship live birds, not just eggs.
i love mittsy.
i love miss robbi.;o)
I wish long life to princess kathy.
Thanks everybody for your feedback. Called MMH to see what (and how) they would say. They said they don't know what but it was the chicks from the last week of Feb and March 1st. Non vaccinated and vaccinated were affected. Have had no trouble since then. Has anybody gotten any orders from MMH since then??? Still on the fence about canceling or not. I still have time. The reason I went through MMH was for Blue laced red wyandottes, couldn't find them anywhere else.
Thanks Catscan. You're certainly right about learning a lot on this forum!
Thanks TamaraFaye. I've put out feelers to see if I can find a local source for chicks.
Thanks truest. I'll check out eggbid.
MollyD
This message was edited Mar 19, 2008 12:10 PM
Mommahen, my feeling would be that of course they would
say that all is ok now. I would be very leery of any chicks
from this year. I see they are your source for the red
wyandotts, but if you lose a lot, you can't just replace those
you lose through them due to their shipping policy, you might
get stuck without your chicks, and have it mess up your
raising schedule. It's a call only you can make. Maybe some-
one can give you another source for the wyandotts. Best of
luck to you, and for your's and the chicks sake, I hope the
problem has been eliminated altogether.
i love geneivy.
I love Miss Beckie.;-)
i wish princess kathy wasn't such a good lurker.
This message was edited Mar 20, 2008 9:24 AM
another thing to consider is that if their birds are infected you are risking infecting the ones you already own.
MollyD
Hello, I received my order of chicks from MM on March 11, they hatched on March 8th. So far after an initial loss within the first 48 ours of three chicks which I believe was due to cold, mine have been healthy and active. BUT people are reporting this illness starts 2 1/2 - 3 weeks of age. So for me it is a waiting game.
amaliayosa, if MMH is right about the hatch dates of the affected chicks, you should be okay. Fingers crossed.....
amaliayosa, what breeds did you get? Vaccinated or not? Thanks for the info. My order is due 3/31 and I am still on the fence as to whether or not to cancel. I am getting BLRW, buff orps, sp. sussex and australorps. Keep me posted. I'll hope for the best for your chicks!
Avian encephalomyelitis is the dx on some of the preliminary necropsies.
Intro
Avian encephalomyelitis is a viral disease of the central nervous system of chickens, pheasants, turkeys, and quail. It has a worldwide distribution. Morbidity 5-60% depending on the immune status of the majority of parents, mortality high. Vertical transmission is very important, transmission occurs over about 1-2 weeks, some lateral. The route of infection is transovarian with an incubation period of 1-7 days; lateral transmission is probably by the oral route, incubation >10 days. Virus in faeces may survive 4 weeks or more.
Signs
Nervous signs.
Dull expression.
Ataxia and sitting on hocks.
Imbalance.
Paralysis.
Tremor of head, neck and wings. Tremor may be inapparent but is accentuated if chicks are held inverted in the hand.
Treatment
None
reprinted from the poultrysite