Ailanthus Removal (experiments & what to do with wood)

After reading all the posts, I'm gearing up to do some serious Ailanthus removal experiments here on a .7 wooded acre we just bought that is adjacent to our property and absolutely infested with Ailanthus.

There are these bizarre-looking places where the original tree seems to have died a natural death and left a little ring of small suckers growing around the perimeter of the old trunk.

I'm going to try cutting down some of them at 4-feet and painting the stump with Tardon, and drilling-and-filling some others.
(I'm don't like to use chemicals at all, but I really don't think I have any alternative--there's just no way I could successfully cut and contain all the seed-heads until these things die a natural death!)

Is there any use at all for the wood?
Can it be burned, carved, mulched, made into furniture?
Should I pile it up somewhere in the woods to decompose or should we load it up and take it to the county landfill?

What do I do with the wood from the trees that I cut-and-paint? (Plan is to cut-and-paint at 4 feet in height and then continue to cut-and-paint repeatedly over time until it is quite dead)

If it won't be harmful, I'm inclined to just pile it all up somewhere and plant some nice natives around it--but will they survive the chemicals--both the Ailanthus' and the Tardon?
Maybe I've read too much sci-fi, but I can just picture the stacked and 'dead' Ailanthus wood putting out roots, reviving and being very, very angry!

I'll take some pictures to post the next time I'm out there.

Teresa

Teresa,

My condolences: sounds like you're taking on quite a project, but it surely is a worthwhile one! Just be forewarned that it will take some time; these creatures do not die easily, darn it. Loved the image of angry wood sprouting and seeking revenge; in the years I've been battling this beast, I've had many such fantasies!

Do not use the wood for mulch. I know both the roots and leaves are allelopathic, and kill off other plants for a wide area; I'm not sure about the wood, but I wouldn't risk it. It is a very nice hard, light-colored wood (if viewed objectively, which is hard when you've been trying to kill it); probably would be fine for furniture or carving. Burning is also a viable alternative if allowed in your area. I have the tops of a couple adult ailanthus that I had taken down after I finally managed to send them to tree heaven; someone promised to come burn them but never showed, and I don't know how to do it safely. I haven't seen any resprouting from them, but they were pretty dead when cut. It's probably just a result of my high frustration level with this tree, but I wouldn't want to keep sections cut from a living tree on the property; just not sure they wouldn't sprout, and wouldn't want to take the risk.

BTW, I share your reluctance to use herbicides, and normally try hard to avoid them. Take my word, you have no choice with ailanthus; manual removal while the tree is living just prompts massive root suckering. I learned this the hard way, of course. [The only success story I've read is terryr's, and she had a massive amount of soil removed as well; doubt that's practical in your situation.] I don't know about Tordon, but triclopyr (BrushBGone) has a long life in the soil. Milder chemicals like RoundUp are only effective on small seedlings, not at all effective on root suckers without repeated applications.

Keep the faith. Every time I do another round of hack & squirt on my one remaining adult ailanthus (she's hurting but hasn't given up yet), I tell her she may be the tree that grew in Brooklyn, but she's not growing on my patch.

You've read the threads on this beautiful beast and seem to know what you're up against so best wishes to you because I think your plan to cut and paint and cut and paint using Tordon is sound.

I don't see any reason why the wood couldn't be burned in your fireplace/fire pit and if furniture can be made out of it that's even better. Not good to use as mulch or leave on the ground to decompose for reasons mentioned by spartacusaby. Any native plants you might plant around a pile of Ailanthus might not have a fighting change of surviving let alone thriving because of the allelopathic chemicals that would leach into the surrounding soils.

I too share your reluctance to use chemicals but there are times when there is no viable alternative unless you want to end up with the equivalent of a crater in your yard to get to all the roots to attempt to minimize or eliminate suckering... you're going to have to use them. Truly sorry about that but mechanical removal on some species isn't practical and I know this from experience myself.

Here are a few pictures of those suckered mosquito-pits.

I suspect they are Ailanthus, but since I'm terrible with bark, won't know until things leaf out!
There are about 10-12 of these at the edge of the wood as well as others that don't appear to have suckered. . . yet.
Do you think we could burn Ailanthus in the woodstove? (That would make my husband very happy, too!)

Planning ahead on what natives to plant once I have some Ailanthus cleared.
We have lots of red maple, sassafras, tulip poplar and a few small hollies.
Teresa

And did I mention that we have a crop of English Ivy to contend with as well?
No doubt it's the only thing that is happy growing this close to the (suspected) Ailanthus.
This shows one of the lovely mosquito-habitats they provide.
Teresa

This message was edited Mar 13, 2008 4:26 PM

Like you, I have trouble being sure of the ID until they leaf out; but the color and texture of the bark in your photos looks like my old nemesis. I've never seen them form pits like that, though: I'll bet the mosquitos love that!

BTW, there are other vines that happily survive on ailanthus: mine were covered with thick poison oak and ivy vines when I started working on them. That was the first thing I had to eliminate because I'm really really allergic to both. Think English Ivy is also in that small group of plants that would survive anything including nuclear holocaust. Aren't we blessed.

I think it would be fine to burn the ailanthus in your woodstove: as I said, it's a nice hard wood. Would be nice to get some positive use out of it.

Honestly, I wouldn't plan to plant anything in the area of the ailanthus this year: you won't believe how long it takes to totally kill off the roots. And as long as the roots are living, they're allelopathic.

http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/aial1.htm ...
Here is the unwanted tree as stated above in this thread.

There is a close up that makes the tree more desirable, but it is not one for the home landscape. It shouldn't even have a place in our woods!!!

Karin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Amen to that, Karin! Down here you can watch the beast's progression in so many locations. Starts as seedlings along the roadside/disturbed areas. Cut them down and they multiply from root suckers. Soon there are many rapidly growing little trees. First they kill off the perennials/annuals, then they kill the shrubbery, finally they take on the trees. Within a few years, you have a solid stand of ailanthus that goes on for blocks. Personally, I'd like to see them banned throughout the country; as it is, we'll never kill off all of the ones that already exist, and their long-lived seed banks.

Thanks for that link, Karin!

Here's the part that caught my eye:
" A potential biological control for ailanthus may lie in several fungal pathogens, (Verticillium dahliae and Fusarium oxysporum) that have been isolated from dead and dying ailanthus trees in New York and in southern and western Virginia."

(I've been wishing there were such a thing as the 'Chartreuse Ailanthus Borer'--as recently as yesterday!)

The instructions on this page for the 'hack-cutting' suggest using an axe and leaving a few inches between each cut, but it doesn't suggest a good depth. . .

Anyone try the 'basal bark' application? Says it's most effective on trees under 6" diameter.

Teresa

Ailanthus does have its own moth, the Ailanthus webworm moth. It's actually pretty neat looking. I don't think it hurts the trees, though.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/bf/go/908/

Greenthumb, that picture looks like a Paulownia or something else besides Ailanthus.

Claypa,
Do you mean that the photo looks like something else or the site that has a photo looks like something else? I had my grandaughter take a bunch of photos last weekend of the Ailanthus. Does this one look more like what you know? I don't know what the blooms of the Paulownia look like or know when it blooms. We were still in Ohio last year in April and did not see those purple blooms.

Karin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The photos - that sure looks like Paulownia tomentosa to me.

http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/pato1.htm ... Here is the information from the same site I used above, but about the Paulownia tree.

What do you think now? Is it blooming in NC now? I sure would like to find it and see it for myself. Can a few of you knowledgeable people chime in here and straighten out the dilemma? LOL

Karin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's a link to an Ailanthus-flower picture from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ailanthus_altissima4.jpg

I didn't realize you thought the purple flower was Ailanthus--to my inexperienced eye, it looked like a non-native Wisteria, LOL!

Hopefully someone experienced will enlighten us. . .

Teresa


This message was edited Apr 15, 2008 9:30 AM

And here's a link with information on differentiating Ailanthus from sumac--which is what I find challenging:

http://www.themondaygarden.org/archives/2005/01/ailanthus_and_staghorn_sumac.html

Teresa

My link above did not work for the Paulownia tree. Let's try this. . . http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/pato1.htm ...
It looks like the Ailanthus has different looks to it. I haven't figured out these two trees yet.

The Ailanthus looks very much like the leaves of the sumac.

Karin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let's try this for a viable link for the Paulownia tomentosa ...
http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/pato1.htm

I'm trying this a different way. When in "Dave's Garden" and their way doesn't work, do it the North Carolina way.

Karin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The purple flowers look like Paulownia to me, also. The key question is whether the blossoms stink: ailanthus blossoms smell like rancid peanut butter, hence the common name of "stinking shumac." The ailanthus leaves do look a lot like sumac.

Paulownia is pretty invasive in this area, also, BTW. One house down the road has a large mature specimen, and the roadside has small offspring for half a mile in either direction. Neither one is a plant I'd want to encourage anywhere; but you can buy Paulownia at most of the big box stores.

I went back yesterday and walked up to the area that had the most trees that my granddaughter photographed and this is what I saw --- Trees that had purple dangling flowers (not upright), I couldn't smell anything and I was VERY CLOSE, the leaves were a multiple leaflet with directly opposite small leaves with points. The leaves I saw yesterday did not look like the leaves on the link I provided of the Paulownia which look like "redbud sort of".

The Paulownia leaves did not show the pattern of multiple leaflets. These purple flowers on the trees we photographed are fading fast around Charlotte and are getting to be not very attractive.

Spartacus - When does the Paulownia bloom? I'd sure like to see it.

Karin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's hard to compare blooming times, Karin, since your part of the state is so much warmer than ours. Ailanthus blooms here in summer; the Paulownia in late May, I think. Can't say I've ever paid close attention to its bloom time; just notice it blooming when it happens, think that it is pretty then, regret how many seedlings will be following. Sorry; Paulownia isn't a battle I've needed to fight yet, so I know much less about it than ailanthus.

Soivos, on your question about the hack & squirt method of attack on ailanthus: I hack deep enough to expose some of the cambium layer, with a downward stroke so you're exposing a fair amount of the cambium layer to the herbicide with each cut - quarter to half an inch deep should do it. Spray each cut IMMEDIATELY with your herbicide of choice, before moving on to make another cut; this is important. I haven't found a source for Tordon, so have been using undiluted BrushBGone concentrate. Start your cuts high on the trunk so you can move down a foot or two each time for the next cuts. This method does work, though it takes time. Of the three good-sized ailanthus I attacked with this method, two were declared dead last spring, after a full summer of hack attacks; I waited until last fall to have them cut down just to be sure. The third and largest tree got another summer of treatments last year, and so far has not leafed out at all this year; I'm hopeful she's finally gone to tree heaven, since this is the female that has blessed my property with seedlings.

I can help you settle your ID dilemma.

To begin with (sounding professorial), look for features to separate plants by the leaf arrangement instead of the really big flower colors. That saves a lot of chasing of wild geese.

Opposite vs. alternate should be the battle cry, despite bright color or great fragrance or evergreeness, etc. One should also look for the origin of the real obvious feature, too, so that quick IDs don't have to be rescinded later.

All that said, the very colorful flowers illustrated capably above by Karin (greenthumb_NC) and suggested as Ailanthus but then alternately ID'd as Paulownia by claypa were then accurately and correctly named as Wisteria spp. by Teresa (soivos).

Now, why is that?

First, Karin might go back (if time is available) to where she's seen the purple flowers and see if they originate from the tree scaffolding, or from a vine that is climbing the tree. Having spotted the compound foliage that she described (multiple leaflets), this eliminates Paulownia from the running. I suspect that the spectacle of this huge object draped with such stunningly copious blooms blotted out any idea of looking closely for such features. Lessons learned!

I act pretty confident here; it's just a forum, after all. I am not thoroughly knowledgeable of the South and all its flora, but I did just come back from a quick jaunt to Augusta (!) last week, and pretty much the whole way through the west tip of NC and through SC to GA there were examples of just what Karin has posted here: big trees draped with wisteria vines in full bloom. It is as amazing as kudzu without being quite as suffocating, and no less persistent than English ivy or purpleleaf wintercreeper around here to absolutely clothe an entire branching structure of the hapless tree upon which it foists itself.

So - to sort out Paulownia from this plant: Paulownia has big opposite simple (not compound) heart-shaped (redbud-like, but much bigger) leaves. You will sooner confuse Paulownia with Catalpa in leaf than you should ever with Ailanthus or wisteria. The flowers of Paulownia will be erect; lavender to light purple and bell or funnel-shaped (not pendulous and pea-shaped like the wisteria pictured); and bloom a bit later than now in KY, more like May. It will be somewhat earlier in NC and SC since you are a couple zones away. For anyone just dying to see one (or thousands), there are zillions of them lining the I-40 right of way as you snake your way through the mountains between Knoxville and Asheville. In the winter, they are easily spotted by the big dormant upright flower buds (kind of a dusty beige color) with additional big dark brown leftover cluster of round seedpod structures that persist.

Ailanthus and Rhus spp. (sumacs) are somewhat more difficult to tell apart, as stated above, because they both have alternate arrangement of compound leaves. These will have to be seen and compared repetitively in order to start seeing the more intimate differences between the species. It isn't impossible, but takes some practice. The best way to do it is collect plant parts from known identified individuals and look at them side by side. Compare stems (and the insides of stems, like pith). Compare buds. Compare the fully extended leaves, as well as the emergent leaves just as buds are breaking. Do a smell test on the broken stems, or crushed leaves. Look at the remainder seed structures, or the flowers when they are in bloom. Look at the overall branching structure, like the density or paucity of branching.

There will be forehead-slapping "ah hahs" that each of you will note, usually never to forget, that will make it easy for you to tell the plants apart every time you see them in the future.

Well, that ran on a bit. Have a second cup of coffee, and battle on!

Thanks, VV: helpful and instructive as always! Too busy thinking trees to remember that wisteria is blooming all over the trees at this season.

For anyone interested, the Ailanthus I had removed...3 yrs. ago...is still gone gone gone. NO suckering to be found anywhere. Do I have seeds that sprout? Of course. I imagine I'll be fighting them for a good long while. In the meantime, the male still resides 2 doors down and another female resides behind me in the church lot ;(

I'm so jealous, terryr; wish I could've found a source for Tordon so my fight would have been easier. And the seed bank is a nightmare, but at least they are comparitively easy to pull or kill. Like you, thanks to the neighbors, I have an ongoing source for future deposits to the seed bank. So generous...

I'm pretty glad myself. Especially glad to prove my tree guy wasn't a crook as others wanted to make him out to be. Gotta love that...people judging people whom they've never met. Anyway, the Tordon RTU was never