OK, am i crazy or did the forum just change from "indigenous

I'm a big worrywort so forgive me a second, but the now deceased "indigenous plant" kind of excluded many naturalized plants that aren't native (to whatever area you happen to live in). Now, in this new forum they are included. The bad thing is that we could get mixed up. The good thing is that I guess we will be having lots of discussions about how that beautiful field of wildflowers may not be 100% good for the environment.

Also, did I miss something? What was the thinking about the name change? Just curious.

I said I was a worrywort...

The change was requested because the forum had very little activity, the thinking was that many people didn't know what Indigenous meant or did find it too restricting or esoteric.

We still would like to keep to Native plants as much as possible, and because it is important that we know whether a plant is native or not, we are trying to include the common and scientific names, and a link with each of the pictures, that will show if the plant is native to the U.S. or not.

I like to use Wildflower.org; http://www.wildflower.org/plants/
because it shows if a plant is native to the U.S. and to which area, if it is not, it won't be in their database.
In that case you could search Google, the idea is to learn about the beautiful plants and flowers common to many of us, and otherwise admire the ones that are not native to our area.
I hope that helps explain it somewhat.
Josephine.

CompostR:

The discussion was held over in the Daves Garden forum. Here's a link to the lengthy thread:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/812073/

Thanks frostweed - I'm a big native plant person, so I "get it" totally.

Viburnum - I missed that thread and just read it. I'm working on a response. Meanwhile, I have to say, I wish the name were just "Native Plants" - I think this change alone would have drawn more visitors.

Sometimes democracy is like the weather -- just wait a little while.

Yes, we'll see how it all shakes out.

Here is a link to the USDA's Threatened and Endangered plants list. You can search it by plant name or by state. http://plants.usda.gov/threat.html

Thanks, maccionoadha - I just spent several hours searching for endangered species and then mid-atlantic ecology. These are really great lists (625 plants for Pennsylvania alone!). I printed the ones for my state both ways - common name and Latin name.

Just a little comment though - because I kept forgetting this myself - there are tons more native plants that just don't happen to be at great risk and they aren't on the lists.

I still wish we had a definate Native Plant forum - because this is a specific area of inquiry in which people are trying to restore native habitats. I don't understand the explanation of the "Native Plants and Wild Plants" forum - things which grow beyond the garden fence and endangered plants - this does not necessarily include native plant habitats.

Closer to native plant habitats is "Wildlife Gardening," but, again, of course, this wouldn't necessarily cover only natives.

I find this whole name change amusing. The forum was originally Wild Plants when it was first added to the site. Then there was a big brouhaha about conversations involving non-native wildflowers and the name was changed to narrow the view. It caused quite a disturbance and had some people moving, on so to speak.

Personally, I liked Wild Plants. I enjoy discussions involving natives, and am sometimes quite specific in that regard, but I am also fond of ox-eye daisies and Deptford Pinks and find them no more invasive or obnoxious than the several species of goldenrod that grace my yards and fields. I know all the arguments for destroying the invaders, but as a member of an invasive non-native group myself, I try to keep an open mind.

Kathleen,
That's nice to hear you say. I went to "school" and wound up primarily a botanist, but a farmer by trade. Here in Indiana we spend loads of money trying to eradicate "invasive exotics" (a p.c. name change from "exotic aliens", just so our different law enforcement agencies wouldn't get confused :) ). On their top ten list is Autumn Olive. The main reason our DNR gives for this invasive (which, I must add, they introduced oh so many years ago...seems DNR policy is like democracy, as well) is that it,and I quote, "..is causing a rapid decline and restructuring in our poor-soil plant communities". These communities are not endemic, but the result of over logging, as well as soil erosion from coal and degraded post-agricultural land.

Autumn Olive is a nitrogen fixing shrub, so it colonizes these waste areas (where our native plants are just struggling to do all they can to improve the habitat) and lends a hand to the natives. Succession occurs more rapidly, due to the re-nutrification of the soil. One finds, in a 10-15 year old colonized area, tree saplings coming up in the protection of the Autumn Olive bushes (deer are overpopulated, and nail any unprotected seedlings, thus delaying reforestation). So, while outwardly it appears that this plant is "outcompeting" natives, it is actually just what the ecosystem ordered: a catalyst for igniting the reforestation and reclamation by nature of degraded land, and the reduction of soil erosion. No native plant could have done this, and no human plan is so elegant and affordable. And when the trees come into their full inheritance in 60 years, the Autumn Olive will be gone from there. It will have shipped out to tackle another degraded area, a true ecological tool with which our native lands can heal.

Of course, I'm not suggesting this is the rosy situation for all non-native plants, but we do need to keep our wits about us as we pronounce judgement. Not all non-native plants are detrimental, especially when viewed from an ecosystem succession POV. After all, the non-natives are only successful because they are filling or providing more efficiently some ecosystem function, regardless of whether or not we are aware of it.

That said, I'm off to take my Tennessee coneflowers (Echinacea tennessiensis) out of stratification, and put them onto the germination tables. They're rare, and I don't want our bioregion to lose them.
b

My interest lies in restoring pre-colonial habitats. We have old cleared farmland.

This is the situation as it stands. It will take years I think - past my lifetime at least - to restore it. Why? For one thing, the most obvious, there are few trees (just around the house). The very soil is changed. Most of the topsoil is gone. Left is a thin layer of clay-y loam and underneath that mostly clay and underneath that very hard clay. Fortunately, the good Pennsylvania soil is full of minerals, so it is still relatively fertile. We are in somewhat better shape than the developments where the topsoil was actually removed and sold.

So, like the mining situation above, changes to the very soil and sunlight make it impossible to quickly create what was once here - an oak and hickory forest ecosystem.

But, we can remove really bad invasives and we have planted many trees. I will be long gone before the tiny white oaks mature, but I guess we'll see them get to be teen agers if we are lucky.

As for making decisions as to what to plant and what to avoid - I get my information from local scientists, sometimes government publications, sometimes online sources. I really rely on science. You can't rely on anecdote. I don't know how else we can make good decisons - decisions that are personally and communally responsible. I don't think one can make too many broad generalizations about natives - what is an invasive one place is, obviously, native in another. Some are more harmful to the sprouting and growing of native plants than others.

It's my feeling that each plant requires a thorough specific and science-based understanding. In fact, this my particular passion - research. If a question interests me, I'm like a dog with a bone until I find the best answer I can.

I mention this because this was why I joined DG. I do have this particular interest. Age has a way of narrowing one's focus - which can be good thing. My satisfaction with DG depends on the extent I can share thoughts and info with other DGers. I have this project before me - this is my life. I am after sound information wherever I may find it.

And, uh, btw, they are laughing at us over at the Garden Web:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/natives/msg0220213120822.html?24




This message was edited Feb 28, 2008 9:43 AM

Sorry, but who cares.


(all beyond here is the edit)

That was rather short of me. There are days when I'm a bit terse. On further reflection I would like to amplify my statement.

I find the attitude that the mere mention of a non-native plant is offensive in bad manners. People who follow that thinking are apt to miss out on some rather good opportunities for education. They also tend to drive away people who are interested in learning new things. I've seen it happen. I used to go to that other site and pretty much left in disgust at the rudeness evident in the purist attitude. They are more than welcome to look condescendingly at us, I find in the broader scope that it makes no difference at all.

This message was edited Feb 28, 2008 6:15 PM

I keep hoping that this forum becomes the non-gardening botanical corner of Dave's Garden. So "wild plants" sounds good to me. I'd rather garden with natives than with non-natives, but I'd rather be wandering around looking at uncultivated plants (native or not, but preferably the former) outside of a yard than either. Probably a title change doesn't mean much of anything, but this title at least suggests directly that there might be room for all that stuff that isn't planted.


Also, brambledad, I have to say that my impression, living in Bloomington until 2004, is that the whole area is over-forested. What is needed isn't a means to encourage new, dense, weedy second-growth forest to colonize more quickly, but a way to avoid that kind of forest entirely and arrive at some of the open forest and unforested habitats that were once found in southern Indiana but have become rare. So I guess I'll respectfully disagree and suggest that, first, poor-soil communities are endemic (at least, as endemic as any ecology was when Europeans arrived!), and, second, a plant that aids reforestation is not a good thing if the forests resulting are just more of the dense, thickety beech/maple/tulip poplar stuff that southern Indiana already has far more than its fair share of. Give me glades, barrens, and open oak/hickory woods any day. Beech/maple/tulip poplar forest is fine but there's no shortage.

Patrick

This message was edited Feb 28, 2008 8:01 PM

Patrick,
That's great, man. The more of us with strong ideas the better! If we're all working towards that elemental image of beauty that has seared itself in our minds, yet looks different to all of us, then the gift we give to the world (and ourselves) is healing.
Keith

You know, my only motive in asking for the name change was to revitalize a forum that was apparently dead. I know there are people around who are interested in native plants and wildflowers and hated to see this forum with so little interest. I really didn't care what the forum is called but figured no one could make any sense out of the term indigenous plants.

It apparently worked, so I'm happy. I have certainly been enjoying everyone's posts about their native plants.

My feeling on the whole native plants (or whatever is the politically correct term) purists is their offense at anyone who doesn't agree stifles any conversation from newcomers to wild plants or from those who feel that it's perfectly okay to plant something that isn't native.

Maybe we need two forums for this - one for those who are interested in gardening with native plants or wildflowers or whatever you want to call them and those who want to argue the political issue of planting non-natives and discuss restoration of habitats where native plantings are crucial.

I know the ones who have been so offended by the change of title certainly weren't in here discussing indigenous plants or anything else.

Rather than a new forum (we seem to have a plenitude of forums lately), how about separate threads within this forum.?

As to open woods, we HAD a lovely maple/cherry/beech/tulip wood - lovely old trees with open space beneath and an abundance of wild native flowering plants. First, the gas well drillers let a salt water pit over flow, then the former owners, who kept the timber rights just long enough to sell out the woods had it pretty much stripped. It only takes waiting for the mature woods to develop. We are now seeing some new growth and less brush.

I think it would all fit in here wonderfully, Kathleen. I was referring to those who are apparently offended by the gardeners who don't toe the line with their particular hobby horse.

That's a horrible shame about your woods. Did you not know when you bought that the former owners had kept the timber rights? Most of those trees are fast growers, especially the cherry, so hopefully you'll have something to look at besides brush before too long.

I think that people can start threads about any aspect of native plants, gardening, conservation, restoration or just plain admiration.
There is room here for all the smart people who love native plants and want to talk about them and or do something about them.
Josephine.

Yes, we knew they would be cut - we tried to buy the timber rights, but were refused. Greed still runs rampant amongst those who see the land as entitlement. We would have done some selective logging and been choosy about who did the actual logging, but it wasn't to be. I'm still trying to find some of the plants that I had catalogued (in a very minimal manner) before the over flow.

Back to the thread, I too do some scientific research, but I have really had the best luck with talking to older people who had farmed this area for years. You'd be surprised at how many farmers know exactly the what and where of wild flowers in their woods - much more so than what their wives are growing in their yards.

Josephine, I agree with you. I was just trying to make the point that people who want to tell other people what they can and can't grow in their own yards are stifling discussion.

I'm so sorry you weren't able to save your woods. I live surrounded by a national forest and some of the loggers have come in and done exactly what was done on your land - wipe out everything taller than a wildflower.

I know what you mean about cataloging the plants too. State lists of native plants really aren't always very useful. Many of the plants native to my state or even my region won't live on my land because the soil and conditions are completely different from other areas even a few miles away.

Have you tried contacting your state native plants association? You may find they have done surveys and catalogs of plants in other sites near you that would be helpful.

Wow! I went and looked at the list you posted and you do have a lot of prohibited plants.
I think we should all be well acquainted with our state's invasive and or prohibited list and act accordingly and responsibly. I am well aware of the Texas invasives list as well.
http://www.texasinvasives.org/Invasives_Database/Results/Invaders_Results.asp
Josephine.

Here's a link to the USDA website on the Prohibited Plant Status: Federal & State: http://plants.usda.gov/java/noxComposite?stateRpt=yes


Aquene,
Moe/Wahtukques Sochepo

Since some of these invasives lists actually include plants that are native to that area (I'm not talking about the Texas group you posted), that again to me is a political issue and, like religion, one that everyone has to decide for themselves.

And the thing is, while some states may have long lists of prohibited plants, some states don't. Like Josephine said, everyone should be acquainted with what isn't allowed in their state and it's just good gardening to know what's going to go wild and invade if you plant it.

You know, for many years it wasn't legal to grow gooseberries and currents in Virginia, although many people grew them anyway, because they are a host plant for a pine rust disease. It was kind of ridiculous because there are wild currents growing all over the state and that ban has been lifted. Thank heavens they didn't try to eradicate the wild currents.

Maybe now that this forum is getting active you should post a thread about the ones you're seeking? We've had a lot of people from Texas post here, you might find people who have what you want.

Hello maccionoadha, that is an excellent list you posted for us, now everyone can find what is not allowed in their State.
It might be a great idea to have a " Sticky " thread for this type of thing, so everyone can find it easily, what do you think? We could ask Terry to do that for us.
Josephine.

Sounds good to me. There's also a list of what can't be sent from the USA to Canada.

Oops, forgot to post the link... lol. http://www.inspection.gc.ca/english/plaveg/internat/d-94-14lste.shtml

Great, another good list, would you like to ask Terry or Dave about the sticky? or would you like me to do it.

In case anyone's interested, here are some native alternatives to Autumn Olive which are drought tolerant (as the Olive is):

Strawberry bush (Euonymus americanus)
Wax-myrtle (Myrica cerifera)
Meadowsweet (Spirea latifolia)
Mapleleaf viburnum (Viburnum acerifolium)

Also, this was mentioned above a couple times - that the very conditions which supported natives are often changed (for instance, the top soild is depleated). In this case, the original ecosystem and native plants are gone. I would like to learn more about this. It has been discussed somewhat (by the Penn State extention people I know) - most in regard to old farmer's fields. They suggest planting plants native to a priarie situation. Other areas of the country probably have similar situations. As I said, we are also trying to replant oaks and such trees as were once here.

I'd love to plant all the little forest floor Pennsylvania native wildflowers, but, since I don't have a forest... I have to plant a prarie!

I think it's a big problem because I often hear where people are frustrated because they can't get natives to grow very well.

That's a good list of noxious plants - I wish I could think of some examples, but I think at one time a few plants classified as "noxious" were so designated because they caused farmers a lot of trouble - even though they were native! I don't see any examples on the PA list now. Milkweed might have been one. It just goes to show how things change.

I did not see anything wrong with 'Ingenious Plants'.

If I throw a handful of seeds and don't cultivate or tend them, are they wildflowers if they reach sexual maturity?

"wild" connotes uncultivated, but it also depends on the plants having been self-seeded. In a generation or two, yes.

Before you go with this particular brand of garden sophistry, please check and make sure that the seeds you throw are neither endangered nor invasive.

(I just typed this whole thing and lost it. Phewwwww : ( Ok, it went something like this...)

I don't think you can really define "wildflowers." Say you define them as any particular plant not planted intentionally. Then you couldn't plant wildflowers! If some planted plants spread, are some wild and others not? And, as mentioned, if you cultivate a plant that no-one actually planted, does that change the plant from a wildflower to a non-wildflower? Forget it - If I'm going to go crazy someday, I prefer it not be over this!

ha ha UU - I guess all plants are geniuses at being themselves.

water - (Please forgive me, I couldn't resist.) Did you go wild when you reached sexual maturity? Don't answer that! : )

CompostR- sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If you planted it it ain't wild (the idea of planting wildflowers always seemed nonsense to me), but the boundary between cultivation and its absence is occasionally unclear.

Well, I can see the point in planting wildflowers, for one thing it is a conservation and educational tool.

It doesn't matter whether the plants are no longer wildflowers in my garden, because I planted them, the purpose is to bring them to people's attention and to get them acquainted with their native flora so as to foster an appreciation of native plants.
Also their beauty can be enjoyed by all who see them.

The plants remain wildflowers in the wild where they take care of themselves.

So if I plant wildflowers, they are no longer wild in my garden, but the same species are wildflowers in the wild.
Josephine.

"the thinking was that many people didn't know what Indigenous meant"
Frostweed

"No child left behind."

Is CompostR implying that Water Sedge is sowing Avena fatua ?

Oh, frost, I wasn't debating planting wildflowers ! Just the idea that it's not possible to really define the WORD, "wildflower." Plant away!! : )

paalexan - yes, I think it's unclear - that was my only point. You say it better than I did.

I joined DG in Sept. '07 because I wanted to talk with like-minded gardeners - to see what they were doing, etc. When I saw "Indigenous Plants" I thought, oh boy, great, now there are some people to talk to that share my interest. So, when the name changed, I was so disappointed there isn't a specific place for this particular activity. I just want to discuss natives. It just makes it a little more difficult to find people - I see where someone suggested the use of the term "native" in the thread name. I guess this is one solution. So far, it's great (I mean for me) that people have posted a lot about native plants. It's still difficult to know what threads are relevant for me. There's no way I can read every thread to find out. It just makes it a bit tedious. But, like I said, I'm glad to see people posting about natives. I just had this feeling of disappointment because the "Indigenous Plant" forum was at least 50% of why I sent in my $20.

Finally, I have to say, I'm not here to argue, be political (power hungry), impose my will on anyone, have heated debates - never! I have too much stress in my life and life is too short!

Of course, I do have an opinion - that native habitat restoration is really important for all kinds of reasons: to avoid species extinction, create biodiversity, prevent water runoff, to creat wild places for human sanity, have cleaner air - there are many more reasons. Because I think it's important, of course, I liked the "Indigenous" forum where I could always assume I was talking to like-minded folks.

"Wild oats" ! good one UU !











This message was edited Mar 4, 2008 9:35 AM

You still can talk to us just the same, we care about native plants, no matter what you call them.

CompostR, the easiest way to find what you're looking for is to start a thread with a specific subject and/or questions, opinions, relevant rants and I'm pretty sure that you'll find a lot of discussion. Be aware that here, like the rest of Dave's, there will be the occasion off topic post, but generally we can be trusted to stay on topic in a serious discussion.

We have a farm that has been farmed for over 100 years. The soil is mostly intact clay loam (Langford Clay Loam to give the old designation, now grouped in the Busti/Volusia soils). It's not that the topsoil has been depleted, it is just what it is. We are in an area where the only oaks are those planted by us, although 10 miles east and north there are stands of white oak and when the state put now I86 along Chautauqua Lake they cut down some old growth white oak. What can you do?

Glad my query got a rise out of you all. I've always delighted in the soft core nature of the inflorescence.

Fear not Kathleen, I'll not sow anymore Japanese knotweed, though the variegated variety tempts me ever still.