Horse Manure...

Ok folks, some advice would be appreciated!

I've got an opportunity to get some horse manure/straw from a park district stable. It's my understanding the horses don't graze in pastures much so I'm hoping the seed factor will be minimal.

So, do I haul in as much as I can shovel?
How long does it need to "age" before I spread it (don't want to burn my beds).

I've got ph neutral soil that has a lot of heavy clay. I'm planning on mixing in some leaves (brown, right?) with the manure (green, right?). Do I need to worry about ratios or just heap it all together and let nature do it's thing. Looking to do a lot of this to get the soil more friable and loamy. I know I need to add organic matter and this looks like a way to start.

Am I on the right track?

hostamomma,

I'd say your on the right track. Just mix your browns and greens. Place it in a pile and you'll have your black gold.

Try to find the oldest looking part of the pile, if you can. I think they say to age six months, but I don,t think you can prove one way or another. If you find old, broken down looking stuff, that doesn't steam or smell alot when you dig, and doesn't heat up after you've worked with it, I would feel safe using that this spring. If it's steaming readily, and gets hot again after you stir it up, it still has nitrogen to burn.
Manure will help leaves break down, but manure will break down by itself too. I would use up to half leaves in the total pile, just heap up and turn weekly, or when you feel like it, which depends on the weather for one thing.
I've seen amazing things grown with lots of composted horse manure!

Usually horse manure also contains wood shavings/sawdust. Otherwise they must be pastured where weeds are almost inevitable. The type of wood chips has a bearing on use in compost.Good luck.--- Dean

ok good points all. Dean, the stuff did have a lot of wood shavings in it. It was already nice and steamy (36 degrees here in Dundee, IL).



Why does the type of wood chips have a bearing on the use in compost? I will call to find out what kind but as always any information would be appreciated.

Usually (not ALWAYS, lol) the chips are cedar or pine (we were just having this discussion on the equine forum!) but it's possible that it is hardwood, and not very likely that it's black walnut (thats bad for horses, too).

The chips *should* be shavings, which should break down a little faster than actual chips. But i would definitely wait at least 90 days before using any of it, the hotter the pile the better. That will eliminate most of your seeds if there are any and probably denature any wormers, medications, or chemicals used in supplements. Anywho, if the chips haven't broken down to the point of blending in, you can use that part of your compost as a top-dressing or a mulch... or just throw it back in to cook a bit longer.

hostamomma...I till in horse manure each fall after crops are out and have had no problems with crops burning. After the first application three years ago I sent a composite soil sample to an ag-lab and asked for their garden test. It came back too high on Nitrogen. Potassium and Phosphorous were also high but by spring tilling time the manure had broken down with very few biscuits left. Crops did well, so I repeat the process each fall.

I mulch and cultivate various crops in the spring with composted horsemanure from a 60 cu ft bin as well. I have however, made a number of changes in my composting methods based on numerous ideas from DGers, and already the compost looks as good as my previous spring batches. I am adding 20 percent new material every three to four weeks due to shrinkage, which amaizes me. I have added coffee grounds, leaves, grass, and left over blood meal, bone meal, potash, and epsom salts in no particular ratio to my endless supply of horse manure. I may be wrong, but I think compost is failry forgiving, as long as you keep it well watered and turned periodically.

As to weeding...there will always be weeds in your garden regardless of what you do. I use one of those wedge shaped hoes with very sharp replaceable blades available. I sharpen it after ever use and just skim the surface under the weed and leave it lay. My garden is 90' by 60', and I do a few rows each morning, repeating at about a weekly intervals. I use soaker hoses so mulching makes weeding less difficult in the wet areas where a hoe is of little use.

I found a cure for weeding. My garden is on Indian campground where i've found many arrowheads(including a Clovis point) and pieces of pottery. Neighbor kids to look and I tell them I usually find the points when I pull weeds. Cleanest garden in the area and they occasionally find a point.Hmmmm--Wonder what I can come up with for housework.Please verify NO black walnut if hardwood shavings and preferable no red cedar --time needed to decompose.Happy manuring!

clever! My step mom once hid a ten dollar bill in some leaves her grandson was raking--and watched to make sure he found it, of course.

I really appreciate the responses. The wood shavings were very fine and I suspect pine. It's already pretty well broken down (no ammonia smell). Besides, here in Zone 5 I have at least 3-4 months till spring so it should have plent of time to break down.

Last 2 years I have put dry horse manure on and worked it in in the fall.
The year before that I got a load of wet with not too much straw. It was harder to handle but by spring I could find very little remaining. The night crawlers loved it. I also have a few loads of fill sand in to loosen up the clay.
I like to use news paper under grass clippings to control weeds between the rows. Holds moisture, control weeds and if you have to get on your knees it's softer and not muddy after a rain.

And another

And one final. I thought I had the rows far enough apart. But the maters just kept growing.

Tomato Jungle!

Couldn't ask for a much better advertisement than that...

I don't recomend manure for potatoes though. I grow sweet potatoes. If I used manure the year before it is OK. but I lot of times spread wood ash and sand, in the area where I want the potatoes. The sand, I use to keep the ground loose to help get a more uniform root or tuber. I still have a lot of clay soil, but I keep amending it. Gets better each year.
Here is a pic of one hill of sweet potatoes.

randbponder,

I like the pictures. Does the newpaper work well for you?

Dean; Yes the news paper really does work.
I try to use three layers of paper and cover it with about 2" of grass clippings. That usually, lasts untill well after the plants are going good and producing. The area beside my cucumbers did get around 3 or 4 weeds. That is a manageable number. I do get a few weeds right next to the plant which is still very manageable. The news paper is decomposed by the time I am ready to till it all under The grass clippings are not quite decomposed but do till under easily.
The paper is sometimes hard to lay out if there is a breeze. A little squirt of water from the garden hose, helps to hold it in place long enough to cover it with the grass clippings. If you can't find enough grass, a fine sand will also work. The sand would not have to be as thick of a cover as the grass. I like grass or leaves as that turns into a rich compost. I deal with clay here. and the sand does help to loosen the soil up. If you have all sand the news paper and grass or straw would be more of a help for you. I have a shredder chipper That I run the tree leaves through, so they don't blow away.
I hope I answered all your question.
Oh when I picked tomatoes from those 2 rows, I had to crawl under the upper vines that grew across to the other row on hands and knees. I really appreciated the grass cushion under my knees.
This spring, I will have higher fence to tie the vines to. and yes the rows will be just a little further apart.
This was one of the tomatoes from that patch. I gave it to this lady. along with some cucumbers and such. She used to garden too but now if she can get out once in a while she is happy. That tomato weighed close to 4 lb.

Russ

Those are wonderful pictures! And I personally think you were feed them maters some drugs. WOW! Nice size. What variety were you growing?

Russ, showing that tomato this time of year is down right cruel! I have been craving a nice thick and juicy tomato sandwitch for a month and those store bought hot house things are tasteless! A mater that size would make half a dozen or more sandwitches!

Wow, a 4Lb tomato. You've been using your manure well. Yes, what variety of tomato was that?

Doc,
Zany
Dean
The tomato shown was an heirloom called giant beef.
In that section of garden I had several of the heirlooms
They were ,The Giant Beef, Boxcar Willie, Mule Team, Dr Wychies Yellow, Big Beef,Cherokee Purple.
The Big Beef was the most uniform size. Most of those were at the
1-1/2 to 2 lb the Cherokee Purple is smaller but a great tasting one.

all the rest were all a larger tomato. I'm not a big fan of yellow tomatoes, but if you like the yellow, Dr. Wychies, would be my choice.
They were mostly 2lb. I think had I kept it pruned it may have had up to 3lb toms.
My getting those particular plants was totally without planning.
We went to the IA DG RU, Someone had brought them for our plant swap. There were some left over. and that person didn't to take them back home. She said she had all she needed at home. Thankfully I got talked into taking them.
The others that I put in were Celebrity and a Salsa type . They done well too. And you know that I will be going for some of those old heirloom ones again. Sorry if that was crule for this time of year. But a picture is worth a thousand words. I too find out new things too here on DG. How about one more pic. One picking of sweet banana peppers.

Russ

Hey Russ, you comment on horse manure and potatoes...please explain.
morgan

Morgan;
Sorry I wasn't clear

Your potato plants will benefit from the addition of compost, (WELL COMPOSTED MANURE), and other organic matter to the soil. HOWEVER, TOO MUCH ORGANIC MATERIAL CAN INCREASE THE CHANCES OF POTATO SCAB." (Potato scab is a bacterial infection which doesn't affect the usability of your potatoes, but it makes them look pretty ugly!) To lessen the likelihood of this, mix the organic matter into the soil below the potato seed, where it will feed the roots, but not contact the newly forming potatoes.
The term ( well composted) Does not mean to plant potatoes in the same place that you just got done putting manure on.
Since I put manure on in the fall and till it under it isn't as likely to feed the bacteria that causes the scabs, However I would rather wait untill the second year for potatoes. This will insure that the manure is ( well composted).
If you put manure in a compost pile and it is well composted, that would be a different matter.

I hope this didn't sound like I was preaching! I think I just needed to differentiate between fresh and well composted, manure.

Excellent point, randbponder. Raw manure of any kind should be composted or added an allowed to decompose before you plant in it.
You can always do your taters on the ground and then you won't have to many of those kind of problems. :) See my article on the subject http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/435/ Nothing like tooting your own horn......LOL

Doccat5;
Very good article. I haven't tried putting the potato on the ground then covering them as here in zone 4, the availability of leaves near the end of March Traditionaly Good Friday is nearly non existent. Do appreciate the information though.
I tried raising them in barrel once. That turned out to be more work than in the ground and it didn't work as well.
I usually just put them in the ground. They may sprout early an get nipped by a late frost but they keep trying. I think that helps the roots develop better. Maybe not, but when it is finally warm and the plants are growing good. I start mounding dirt up around them. When I feel they have enough of a mound I usually have enough grass clippings to cover sheets of news paper. as a weed barrier and it also aids in keeping the ground from drying out so fast.
I use the same technique for sweet potatoes, only at a later date. They can't take a frost and come back so easily.
Just being curious what is the best planting date for potatoes, where you are???
We were in central Missouri for 6 years and they used St Patrick's day.

I'm in VA and won't be planting until mid-April. I'm in a warmer zone (7b) and have a longer growing season than you do. You can also use wheat straw or pine straw/needles, for cover if you're short on leaves. The object is to encourage the seedlings to grow straight up and throw laterals. That increases your yield tremendously, because each lateral normally produces a bud(tater). Also a lot cleaner to work with, just gently rake the cover back and harvest the taters.

do you think I could put down newspaper on what I laughingly call turf, and taters on, then the leaves etc? oh, maybe the paper would stop the tater roots trying to go down.

I don't know why it wouldn't work. You use newpapers in lasanga gardening and the worms love it. The taters are not wimps, they just don't like wet footies. I'd put down a thick layer of newspaper and wet it throughly first. That won't hurt the seedlings, but will help the paper break down and the tater's grow. :)

I guess I may be limited to use oat straw, and a little potting soil, for the beginning. Pine needles are rare too..
I like the concept of just racking the leaves back and harvesting a few and no dirt hanging on them LOL
edit To say whoops I forgot about news paper. That would work with the straw.

This message was edited Jan 18, 2008 4:03 PM

Preach away Russ, cause I'm writing this all down! My first year with potatoes was a complete disaster. Planted too deep for norther climate. Last year, which was my thrid attempt, was a bit strange. The part of the crop planted in newly opened and treated ground (coupious amount of horse manure tilled in in the previous fall) did not fare as well as a portion of ground adjacent to it which didn't have as much manure. Than I read somewhere in a DG thread that potatoes don't require much fetilizer. With all the information provided in this thread and Catherine's article my head is still buzzing. Thanks All.

And Catherine...keep on tootin!

morgan

For several years, I've been top dressing my gardens with fresh horse manure & sawdust/wood shavings in the Autumn and letting it decompose until Spring. I have very good results, though I still get weeds as that's the simple nature of horse biology. My preferred method these days, is to lay down a few layers of newspaper over the bed before putting down the horse manure as this helps with weed control. That does not prevent seeds in the manure from germinating, of course, so cow manure is by far the better option, if available. Hostamomma, I've found that it's pretty handy to shovel the manure into empty horse feed bags and transport it home on the back floor of my car that way. It's also pretty easy to maneuver when it's in the bags, however, I've got a small-ish urban lot that I garden on and don't need massive truckloads. :)

My horse's bedding is usually a mix of hardwoods, depending upon what the mill/supplier happens to be running, albeit no cherry or black walnut as PC mentioned above. Pine shavings tend to be more costly around here, so fewer stables seem to use pine than in other locales.

PS I, too, started with *heavily compacted clay* but after only a couple seasons of doing this, my beds have become delicious havens for worms and other beneficials. I can even dig in them now without using heavy artillery!

This message was edited Jan 19, 2008 11:04 AM

Wrightie; I have a neighbor who has chickens for their son's 4 H project. I have used some of that as well. I haven't used much sawdust on this garden yet but I did try it on a garden when we lived in Missouri. I even lined the bottom of the little trench with rabbit manure for beans. That worked well.
I have put a couple pickup loads of fill sand on this garden (real fine sand) costs about $4.00 per ton here. My soil was definitely clay. We have lived here for thirty years now and with all the manures, leaves, grass clippings and wood ash it has turned into a nice black dirt. We have a lot of night crawlers that work it up as well.
Anyway I was going to say I also use the news papers in between the rows with a mulch or sand to hold the papers in place. That will keep the weeds from coming up so horribly fast. I try waiting untill the potatoes come up, as I can go between the rows with my tiller untill they start branching out. At that time I start mounding the dirt up around each plant so they are all growing up out of a small hump about 5 to 6" higher than the rest of the ground around it. That gives room for the nodes to form the laterals for the potatoes to form and be in soft soil. Some make a ridge of fine soil before planting the potatoes. that will also work. So long as each plant can send roots down and still have room in the softer soil for the potatoes above the root level.
Then of course you could improvise on just covering the seed potatoes with the straw or leaves and as they grow taller increase the pile around each plant. Normally the taller the pile or mound around the plant will give you more potatoes per plant. but figuring in the length of your growing season. There is a cut off point to allow the potatoes to all mature, to a good size. All in all the potato isn't that fussy, other than liking soft soil, mulch or sand to form the tubers in. You do want all the tubers covered though as any uncovered portion of a potato tuber will turn green and be bitter.
Hopefully this don't confuse any one. I plan to try growing a couple plants in mostly sawdust. just to try it. I found an article on raising potatoes in sawdust, so just thought ok test it. LOL
Russ