HELP-new garden to install, flat lasagna style

So I have a huge backyard that's just begging for a veg garden to be put in. In the 30 years of the homes exsistence I'd venture a guess that no one's ever had a veg garden on the property. So, I have my work cut out for me. I expect yields to be moderate for the first couple years.

I have nothing to start with but will buy as needed. I don't have a compost bin and was looking for ideas when I came across a great thread on here about lasanga composting, http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/800670/ and I plan to follow this method.

Now here are my questions:

Should grass clippings, unlike leaves, be omitted from the composting?

If there is grass should I rent a sod cutter or just use grass killer on the area prepped for the bed?

If I can't easily backfill the area with good composted topsoil (behind a detatched garage with fence on all sides backing up to a neighbors) should I use fertilizer for the gardening this year? Or....?

If I don't expect great yields should I minimize the types of seeds I plant?

Is the best idea to rent a rotatiller for this year?

What else am I missing?

I'm not a complete beginner but had only moderate yields for the 2 years we did raised beds at the previous house. We learned some things from there but again, terrible soil and lots of backbreaking work and just so-so results. I imagine this is all due to the soil needing years to be worked, right?

Give me hope!

Grass and Leaves are excellent for your compost pile. As far as tillers go I rented one.

So grass is good, thank-you for answering!

And rent a rear tine one, it's easier on you. Grass and leaves are good for the soil. And before you do anything else, have the soil tested! Your local extension agent can provide you with the materials and the cost is minimal. Or you can invest in one of these inexpensive testing kits from any big box store or nursery. That will give you a better idea of what you need to do to improve the soil.
You need to decide what you want to grow and draw up some plans on paper of your planting area. It's a lot easier to use an eraser if you change your mind or make a booboo. It also allows you to make sure you're planting veggies that are compatible with each other. And so you understand which one''s need full sun, or shade or are heavy feeders, as well as ht and width requirements, etc. If you don't have compost readily available, any good quality 10-10-10 fertilizer will do as a side dressing. I'm greatly in favor of using wide row, raised beds. And you don't even have to do the boxed in raised beds, just till the soil add amendments and shovel it up into a rectangle about 6"-8" deep. Broadcast your seed into boxes, and I use radishes to help mark the end of one box and the beginning of another. In the mean time while all these plants are growing, you need to mulch, you can use grass clippings, leaves etc. It cuts down on the weeds, conserves the moisture and eventually enriches the soil. :) I garden organically, so my beds are set up to draw in the beneficials and ward off the pests. I do not use pesticides nor insecticides at all. If you come up with a plan and have further questions or need more info, please dmail me. :) Your further south than I am, which means you're going to deal with lots of heat and humidity I would imagine.

Very informative! Thank-you!!!!!! Yes, we're in Houston so we get all the humidity. :( The area is full sun and we often look for seed varities that do well in the blazing heat. :) Dh does likes to draw out his garden on graph paper. :)

Only thing I don't have a handle on from what you bring up is----planting complimentary veg's next to each other. I have no clue what benefits another???? I have read you need to rotate your crop but again, some crops will fair better the next year where something else was due to needing the extra acid, etc provided by the previous plant.

Does anyone have a good list on what to plant next to each other or crop rotation????

It's called Companion Planting, honey. And crop rotation is one of the reasons you keep a journal and take notes. Try some of the following books:
"Great Garden Champions" by Sally Jean Cunningham (from Rodale Press, the fount of all publications organic)
"Lasanga Gardening" by Patricia Lanza. (She has 3 books, I have all 3)
Mother Earth News, always got good info in there.
Roses Love Garlic-which I can't get to right now..
Tons of info on this subject :) You'll have a ball.

Bless you! We love Rodale. Bookstore here I come! :)

And here is a website - http://www.gardenguides.com/how-to/tipstechniques/vegetables/vcomp.asp

Bubba, perfect, thank-you, a nice succent list for moi! Appreciate it!

If you have an some way to haul it, rice hulls (rice mills) and spent hops (Budweiser brewery) are available in large quantities - they used to be free. We tilled a BUNCH into the calichi clay soil at our Houston home and turned it into productive garden soil in a single season.

Frank

Oooh, that sounds interesting. Something I forgot is using wet layers of newspaper under the mulch.....I prefer not to shred it for the garden area, sometimes it's just to difficult to control. Worms love wet newspaper (black and white) and coffee grounds.......you put it down,they will come and bring family. :)

You don't need to take out the grass. JUst cover it with a thick layer of newspapers and then layer your topsoil, compost etc on top of that. You can plant in the top layer - next year you wont see any grass or newspapers!

Normally, I say go that route, fancyvan, works like a charm. But she's getting close to planting season in her area and for this year, it would be smarter to go with the tiller so she can get some things in the ground. Side dress and work the lasanga around the plantings. It can only get better. :)

I'm beginning year 5 in Houston gardening - amazing - no matter how much, I add to the garden, the soil has not raised at all. I use the Mantis to till what is there and add at least 200# of additional material every year, not to mention all the leaves, grass clippings, compost, etc.

Love at least one local yard service - they use clear plastic bags. I "harvest" several every week - leave inside the fence to "ripen" for a week or two and add to the garden or compost. Has the odor of fresh "road-apples" when I bust open a bag, but dissipates in a day or two.

Tir, you may find the same service in your neighboorhood.

You do have to be careful about how much grass you use because the decaying grass clippings have a high concentration of nitrogen which can kill new roots as they emerge.

No way, shrubbs. You are mixing all these goodies together. Grass doesn't get that hot unless is all mattered up. I'd be looking for that in my regular compost pile. I just use them to help keep down the weeds.

Gottch ya.

I guess I am coming from a landscaping view and not a gardening view. If we mix too much sod we dug up for a planting bed in with the topsoil it can create a nitrogen toxic environment for root systems.

My mom also used grass clippings over the top of her garden to keep down the weeds. My wife and I are looking forward to starting a garden in our new home. We are planning on staying organic. I will keep your insight in mind. Thanks.

Thanks Bubba, good ideas. Yes we have a ton of landscaping crews who go up and down the street doing everyone's lawn, we do our own, lol. So there are plenty of bags of black gold to take! :)

Off topic: Aren't you only allowed to call yourself "organic" if you now follow the (who is it, usda?) certification guidelines to "be" organic? I know they came in and governed it so it's now easier to just say you are "natural" but perhaps none of this matters if you aren't in the market to sell what you grow????

I am organic though not certified. I'm not selling in the market place, just doing hobby gardening at this point. I'm also doing volunteer work for the Master Gardener program. I just got my cert last Nov and am anxiously early spring, so I can go "help" out in the rose gardens at Mary Washington House and the Kenmore Mansion. Killer rose gardens......oh my :)

Oh love killer rose gardens!

Okay then, organic but not certified, sounds good!

Here's some things I still need answered:


If there is grass should I rent a sod cutter or just use grass killer on the area prepped for the bed?

If I don't expect great yields should I minimize the types of seeds I plant?

What else am I missing?

Just turn the grass under with the tiller, (more nitrogen in the soil). Plant as many things as you want too, production is influenced by the quality of the soil,but enjoy what you can when you can! Try something different, unusual, play a little, try Baker's catalog.......those guys have got the neatest stuff in there and some of it would work well in your "hot" area!

Would a legume crop be a good idea? Do a little nitrogen fixing in your new soil?

Also, I guess I'd stay away from using any sort of herbicide where you're going to be doing veggies. It sounds like your first year is going to be challenging enough, without having any issues from lingering chemicals doing damage. You don't want to risk killing your veggies off in the same way you kill your grass!

I agree with doccat about trying a bunch of things in terms of seeds. You haven't planted there before, so you don't really know what will work there. Fedco has very inexpensive seeds if you want to try a bunch of things.

IFF you do decide to kill the grass chemically, there are grass-specific herbicides.

DH says no grass killing. But are debating on renting a sod cutter and lifting the grass out?

You can always use vinegar to kill the grass first. It's safe.

Good tip!

I forget what percentage it needs to be. Maybe someone here can help out.

Tir_Na_Nog, you might also ask around and find a garden club in your part of Houston. They'd have a lot of practical info.

What kind of grass is your lawn? Dean_W, will vinegar kill San Augustine?

Frank

You can get horticultural strength vinegar off the web, which should give you the proportions to kill out grass. What kind of grass are you trying to kill out?

St. Augustine here.

We've used the vinegar on lawn weeds before, had just forgotten about that.

Yes, it will kill St. Augustine. It is available also at big box stores.

If you don't amend the soil, you may find that different parts of whatever size you make the garden, have very different results with the same seed. By tilling, you will also find whatever the builders buried - that can be amazing in itself.

When I started mine, I dug with shovel and garden fork. Way too much work. Took a whole weekend to get a 3x7 area turned, then it went back to hardpan with the first rain.

When I got the Mantis, doubled the size in 20 minutes. Added top soil and peat moss to break things up. Still too tight. Then expanded to current 20x10 and added 400# topsoil, 200# sand, 2 bales of peat moss. Much better, but continued to amend with the lawn service "stuff" and all the leaf mulch I could find.

Even with all that, there are two distinct zones that grow and produce differently -- so still learning what to plant, where.

Wish I had rented a really BIG tiller and gone down a couple of feet when I started. The native soil is fertile even though hard. Made it very hard to grow root crops the first year or two.

This message was edited Jan 10, 2008 9:40 AM

Here's a site on vinegar http://www.moscowfoodcoop.com/archive/VinegarKillsWeeds.html or google organic grass killers, lots of stuff to pick from.

Prepare the beds first, then add the amendments. If your not going to till then use this method and then add amendments and work them in. Then the newspaper etc and plant thru and on top. Keep a journal, so you know what worked, where it worked and what didn't . It isn't going to happen over night, but each time you add more amendments to the soil you are improving the health. Plus there's a whole world of aerobic teas out there to add as well.

This message was edited Jan 10, 2008 11:43 AM

Thank-you all so much so far, you've been very helpful.

Bubba, don't imagine I'll find to much interesting stuff, it's an area farthest from the house, but maybe!

We'll be renting a rotatiller and then laying down lots of leaves and grass. May not get much in the ground seed wise but the bed will be worked on. :)

Bubba,
The shovel and pitch fork were a hard way to go. Do you still use the mantis?

Yes, but DW thought I was working too hard cleaning plug and carb every year to get it started, so bought me an electric tiller for Christmas. Now I just need enough daylight home-time to use it.

I want to create some separate garden beds to expand what we're growing.

But first have to shred the brushpile. There goes Saturday.

Well, golly, why else would you be doing on a Saturday? You can still drink beer and shred the brush pile, just might want to limit the number of cans/bottles......grin.....
How does the electric tiller work, is that also a Mantis? I have a gardening friend that has a Mantis and we switch off periodically. We have a TroyBilt Horse, so I can do beds for her super quick and she comes over and helps me with some of my beds that are to close to be going thru with the big tiller.

The mantis sounds great for rows.