Any suggestions for a tree?

Hello folks,
I may be in the market for a Japanese Maple but I just don't know. I have a spot eastern exposure between my neighbors house and mine. I have built a raised stone planter and a small flagstone pathway to get from my driveway to my backyard and am looking to spruce it up a bit. The site does not get any direct sun until around 10 o'clock and then the sun stays around till four or so. Not enough morning sun for roses and they get disease, even knock outs don't do very well. Also the air movement isn't as good as the spot is between our houses. The bed I have prepared for the roses is a raised one double dug and amended four feet wide by twenty feet long. I am trying a different planting scheme and would like to nix the roses. I have tried the Encore azaleas but it seemed to get to much afternoon sun and burnt up the leaves. I moved them and they are doing better. I need an upright grower, fairly narrow as the spot is about ten feet from my house and I would like to shade the path and planter some. I love the look of the trees but know nothing about them. My soil is clay and I live in Chesapeake Va. zone 8. Some of my neighbors gave them a try but in full sun. The trees looked a little frazzled to me. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Have a great weekend!

Hi Mudcatslim! I'm just a few miles from you in Newport News. McDonald's Nursery has a great selection of Japanese Maples. Their Virginia Beach location has the largest selection. The photos I posted in the "fall color" thread are taken much from there, and one other nursery near me. I'll be posting more shortly.

It would be helpful to know how much space there is between your house and your neighbor's. Many of the nicest looking JMs can get very wide at maturity. How tall are you thinking you want the tree to get when it is grown up? If tall, are there any overhead wires that would be infringed upon above where you wish to put the tree? (I have issues with this at my home). What color and leaf type are you looking for. The two basic choices are green and red with disected leaves or not. There are wide red leaves, and narrow ones, so you have some things to consider. There is a "sticky" thread at the top to give ideas of which are which. Some of the trees which can handle the sun can also get quite large, but not all.

I'm sure we can make some recommendations!

Laura

Sango Kaku is a fairly upright grower, beautiful in all seasons, easy to get but Laura is right that we'd need a measurement of your space (and height limitation) before any suggestion is really reliable. Air movement shouldn't be a problem since wind is one of the hardest things on Japanese Maples and a big part of you see when the leaves crisp in the summer.

Another similar variety to Sango Kaku would be Japanese Sunrise. I think I have some pics to post of it, but need to go dig them up.

Laura

Here is Japanese Sunrise in Spring before it leafs out. It's bark is more yellow and orange than the normal Coral bark pink and red. I thought I had one of its fall color, but no joy yet.

You all know my feelings on the Sango ...basically you gots top be nuts to grow one unless you get lucky or live in a perfect JM area like Doss does and have an older tree like she does ...( pre crap period)...and I do think if you buy a new one you will hate yourself for it ...in the past they may have been ok but have been so "bred up" that the current incarnation is pure crap in most cases... the Japanese Sunrise is a FAR superior tree in every respect but is even more prone to winter die back although it takes sun much better than the Sango which DOESN'T take it AT ALL IMHO...So if you live far enough south or want to keep it containerized and well protected in winter go Japanese Sunrise...Otherwise stay clear of both. David

Guess you have an opinion David! LOL I forget that it's a problem in cold places. People here grow SK in full sun without a problem but that's moot so I don't even know why I bother. Too bad about the problem with production methods.

It's probably warm enough here for it not to be an issue. I see lots of Sangu Kaku around, and it's possible a cold winter could cause issues. My tree is about 8-9 years old (for me), and was as small as my other "babies" when it was planted, so not a problem for me. Chesapeake is often a few degrees warmer than even I am due to its proximity to the ocean.

Laura

Why are they called Japanese Maples when they originated in China?

This one was planted in 2001, has been neglected big time since 2003, didn't show the wears for the tears. Oh, I've forgot to mention, once it was established, it weathered the triple digit temp. this past summer. Overide the severe drought that we've (without supplemental irrigation). What a tough beauty! Where did I get it? From the boxe store in the Spring.

Lily_love, looks like a very nice Crimson Queen. They are very tough.

According to the book "Japanese Maples", by J D Vertrees, Japanese Maples consist of many cultivars of several species of Maples (Acer) into this general term. Several are not from Japan, but many are. He says that many of these are from Central and Eastern Asia, including Japan, Korea, China, and other countries. Vertrees considers "Japanese Maples" to be the ones from the two species Acer palmatum and Acer japonicum. I think the term japonicum means "from Japan", but maybe someone more familiar can correct my assumption. Vertrees calls several other species "Maples from Japan" rather than "Japanese Maples".

Hope this helps,

Laura

Hey all,
Sorry to take so long getting back but duty calls as usual. Well, the place were I want to place the tree is between my neighbors and my house. There is no problem in regards to his but I have only 10 feet between the middle of my four foot bed and mine. also a raised field stone planter I have made lines the side of my house, and I have a flagstone pathway between the planter and the bed. I don't know if a "tree" is the answer as roots could spread out of the bed and under the flagstone. Maybe a shorter shrubbier form could do the trick. I don't know. I do know that I plan on planting an October Glory maple in front of the path and bed and this may help to break up some of the heaviest sun in the summer months. As it stands right now this area never sees good sun until about nine thirty in the morning. After that it gets a good amount of light and heat until around three o'clock in the summer. Any suggestions would be good. As stated before I live in Chesapeake Va. zone 8. I have clay dirt but amend before planting anything and usually raise the beds. Thanks everyone with the responses from last time.

I'm still a little confused. So you have room for a tree that is 20 feet in diameter? And you want a shade tree? You say that maybe a smaller tree would do but would that create the shade you need? A photo of the area would really help.

I agree, a picture would really help, especially if you can get one in the morning, noon, and afternoon when shade is an issue. I would not worry too much about the roots. A 10-foot space between the trunk and your home means a 20 foot "dripline", or diameter tree, which is not too bad, but could be trimmed back if the tree isn't too tall. Remember, you need to allow for gale force winds in this area, so you may need to consider the eventual height and proximity to the home. For example, when the wind kicks up near my place, the maple I have placed about 8 feet from my home tends to tap the side of the house some.

This tree was labled for a height of 12 feet. Don't believe the tags. I thought I was safe putting it into the location where it is, but It is less than 10 years old and over 10 feet tall already. I have had to trim it back a bit already to keep the branches in control. I had no idea what I was doing when I put it there. It's good that you are asking for advice, and as long as you are not in a hurry, take your time in selecting just the right tree. You are planning for a space that gets at least 6 hours of direct sun in the heat of the day, at least initially. I don't know how the growth rate is of the October Glory Maple, but if there will be shade in say, the next 5 years, you might be able to put something smaller there and provide it with a little shade cloth/small temporary pergola for a few years until the maple gets big enough to shade it in the heat of the day.

If the October Glory is a red fall color, you might want to consider a yellow/orange fall color tree for contrast. I think this might translate to a green-leafed tree, or maybe a variegated leaf, in order to get a fall yellow color. We'll see what the real experts may have to say.

Upright trees to consider:

Sango Kaku Coral Bark- green leaf, spring pinkish color, fall yellow/orange/red
Japanese Sunrise -similar to Coral Bark but some say better
Butterfly- this one needs some shade, but has a vertical shape
Peaches and Cream - not sure if this one can take full sun, but suspect not. Spring color pinkish orange, summer green, fall yellow, shape globe, not too tall

These are some I know you can get in our area, there may be more. A little nursery I go to in Yorktown is planning to get some "Germaine's Gyration" in the spring, but I'm not sure how much sun that can take. Doss may be able to advise as she has one in California.

Laura

Germaine's Gyration does take full sun according to the grower. In my garden and in full sun I got some leaf burn on the edges of the leaves by August but that's not unusual. However, GG is a short and spreading tree which is "supposed" to get to only 10 feet. It would be easy to keep it to that height because of it's spreading nature but it wouldn't be easy to keep it narrow. It's more of a bush tree.

Beni Fushigi grows in full sun here. It's another bushy tree and it's height is supposed to be 8 feet tall and wide.

If you want a taller more round headed tree, Suminagashi, Tsukushi gata and Sherwood Flame can take full sun here in zone 9. These are trees I know from personal experience.

Hey folks,
Hope you guys had a good weekend. When I was talking about space I was referring to the amount of space I had between my house and the center of the bed that runs between my neighbor and my property line. The bed is sandwiched between our property line. The bed widths farthest edge is parallel with and actually defines a sort of fence line. The bed would serve the function of dividing our property like a fence. The bed is entirely on my side. So I have ten feet from the center line of a four foot wide bed to my houses edge. Sort of like a wide hedge effect. I was worried that the root system of the tree could leave the bed and go under my flagstone. The flagstone path is between the bed and my house. My soil is cultivated in the bed and I have a fairly deep stone dust and crusher run base under the flagstone. On my neighbors side the soil is the typical concrete clay that the builders leave behind. Very compacted and hard as all get out to breakup . I actually broke the tines of a heavy Honda tiller when I first started to cultivate my yard. I thought the roots would probably seek the path of least resistance. But I have no experience with Japanese maples. Just Maple Rubrum with their fairly shallow root systems. A large rubrum wouldn't do next to a pathway. I will try and figure out how to upload a few pictures on my wifes digital camera. Any way the responses are always welcome.

I wouldn't worry too much about the JM's lifting your flagstone. But there are a lot of others who might have other ideas.

Yes I agree with Doss... I think you are worrying a bit too much ...get the tree you like trim it if you need to ...I don't think it could bother any surface stuff including flagstone which can heave up on it's own btw crack etc but can always be replaced .David

This message was edited Nov 27, 2007 5:04 PM

This 30 year old tree used to have concrete which didn't lift near it and it's had concrete pavers surrounding it for ten years with no movement. Maybe that will bring you some comfort?

Thank you for the advice on the paving. I think a small tree would do nicely. Decisions, decisions. I guess I just have to read a little more and finally take the plunge. Would you guys suggest a tree from a seedling? I know of a few companies that sell them as such. I am not so sure of the grafting. I've never owned a grafted plant and those trees in the local nursery are pretty expensive.

Yes grafted "named" cultivars are more expensive ...but you should know what you are getting... a seedling tree could be anything ...and most will likely get large but as i said you can trim it...if this spot is as important as you seem to have made it... I think spending a few extra bucks to get something that you "know" what it will actuually look like is probably money well spent...It's a one time investment if you care for it properly and you live in a good JM area not a borderline one... I think the term is penny wise pound foolish fits this situation..I'm sure the flagstone cost much more than a single 4-6 foot nusery grown JM you are planning to put by it ..David

I agree with David. You have special needs to be met and I've seen a seedling that is at least 30 feet tall. The tree in the photo is a seedling whose diameter far exceeds it's height for instance. I think that a seedling does have a place if there is too much sun or wind for a grafted tree and you want a maple as long as the place is large enough so the tree can spread it's wings. I tried three grafted trees where the tree in the photo is and lost them all.

I agree. Given your space requirements, and if you can be patient for a few months, you can get a beautiful tree and one large enough to appreciate in the near term. We can connect you up with a mail order source to save some money. I ordered a tree from her last year and it arrived very well packed and I was able to approve the tree via emailed pictures. Mail order will be typically a tree no more than about 3 feet tall however. Prices for one from Della (I'll dig her email up and post it shortly), are in the $100 or less range for a cultivar. I think I paid between $75 adn $100 including postage for an "Omureyama" tree that was about two feet tall. You can pick one out at McDonald's nursery at the same height and they will run $50 to $70 depending on the tree there. Something 3-5 feet tall will be $100 to $200. The reason for that is that the trees that high are several years old. McDonald's has small grafted trees that are about a year old in the $30 range, but they are more delicate than an older established tree, and I've already lost a few over winter. The care and time needed to grow the maple out are the reason for the cost. You can find Sango Kaku, Bloodgood, Emperor (or Emperor 1), and a handful of other cultivars at the box stores for very reasonable prices, but you need to choose very carefully. These trees mostly get 25-35 feet tall over time and that is likely too large for your lot. I've certainly seen 5 foot trees at under $100.

"The Flower Pot" in Yorktown on Rt 17 (Grafton actually), has a very few trees left, including one pretty nice "Japanese Sunrise" if you are up on the peninsula anytime soon. I think the price was between $150-200, but they were having a sale last time I was there.

Anyway, I suggest you figure out the rough diameter of the canopy you want, and height, and color and then we can make better recommendations.

Thanks for the wonderful info everyone. As usual its almost like a big gardening family here. That is why I continue with my subscription. I'll be checking the local areas largosmom. I didn't realize that The Flower Pot carried them. I'll be looking for a canopy of about fifteen feet or a little more as long as the branches are high enough to walk under, or at least seven feet up. And umbrella shape would be nice. I really don't care about the color of the tree as all of them are lovely to me. I'd say maybe twenty feet tall by eighteen feet wide at maturity or easily trimmed without destroying the natural balance of the tree. Other than that the ability to take some sun and heat is the only other requirement as long as it can thrive in my zone eight environment without a lot of die back in the winter. Thanks again for the help and have a nice evening.