Japanese and Siberian irises

Question: what advantages do you feel you'd have with a co-op as compared to a classified ad on DG?

Which would be more tempting? Does it depend more on varieties offered, price, or something else?

What would make an offer irresistible?

Would a mixed package be of interest to introduce you to either plant?

co-op, they are a fun way to get there and have fun with garden folks and get some plants too... the other option I have never bought anything yet that way... never yet.

I like names so I dont like mixed groupings... just me but I dont like them . Bargians... they can be smallish (bloom in the next year or two ) but I dont want to wait for the seedling to mature.

Waiting is always so annoying. Thanks for the feedback, Mitch.

The biggest advantage to a co-op is that co-ops are openly promoted in relevant forums, so you have a lot more eyes looking at the co-op offerings and, as a result, a lot more response to them. For the commercial grower, a co-op offers a whole lot of free advertising that is read by a whole lot of DG members.

It is against DG law, on the other hand, to promote your own classified ad in other relevant forums. Also, the classified ads aren't used or (I assume) read by nearly as many DG members as are the co-ops, so your ad wouldn't be seen or answered by nearly as many people as would a co-op. Also, you have to pay for a classified ad.

Of course if you're not a large enough commercial entity to be able to offer a co-op, then a classified ad may suit your needs. If you only have small quantities of items to sell, you may get the response you need from the classifieds.

Good thoughts, Laurie. I had no idea you couldn't mention an ad. Not even the ad of another person that might interest others on a thread?

Not really - it could be done but not really in the spirit of the laws...

From what I understand, the DG restriction prohibits self-promotion but allows promotion of other people's ads. So, you aren't allowed to notify folks on other forums of your own ad, but you can notify them of other people's ads. At least I think that's how it goes. You'd have to check with Dave or Terry to clarify the policy and be certain.

Seems odd that you can openly promote a co-op that benefits vendors that are not part of DG, but you can't promote the classifieds for DG members. I do realize the co-ops benefit the people in the co-ops, but I suspect the classifieds benefit purchasers as much, if not more.

I know there is some promotion going on of the classifieds. It appears you just can't promote your own sales.

How many people actually watch the classifieds? I do, but it seems like a lot of people don't even know about that forum.

I would be interested in either kind either way you sell them. The co-ops do get more exposure, but I have the classifieds on my watch list and check it daily for new offerings. I've purchased from there alot. The ads aren't expensive, I think $5.00. If the plants are yours, you can't start your own co-op. Someone else would have to host it. Price is what usually attracts people either way you choose to sell. I'll be watching for them!

Polly, I tried to point out these issues in a thread I started on the DG forum about the classifieds, but my suggestions were shot down. It makes no sense to me, either.

This message was edited Oct 13, 2007 8:48 AM

I'll look at that, Laurie, thanks.

I think price, selection, and flexibility of shipping dates (especially for Sibs and JIs) and payment options all play integral parts in the success of their sale.

Thanks for the input, everyone.

I know I've received word from one person who ran a classified ad and never felt offended in any way. It seems too odd to me that TUV can't mention a classified ad by WXY.

I'll look for your thread, Laurie.

Laurie,

I agree, especially with the flexibility of shipping dates, which has been a problem for some in the past.

I read your thread on the Daves Garden forum, Laurie. And I agree with the people that say the classifieds need to be promoted more, which would get more people to advertise. I also agree with the administrators of DG that we don't want to have a lot of spam on the forums.

What I still don't understand is why the co-ops, which mainly benefit the vendors rather than the DG members, are allowed to be promoted so freely, if the classifieds are not. Now I'm talking about the sellers not the buyers, as I know the co-ops benefit the buyers greatly (usually), as do the classifieds.

For example, say I wanted to do a co-op for JIs with Dinky Iris Sales, who was not even a member of DG. I could promote that on the various forums. But if you, Laurie, wanted to do a classified ad you could not promote it. Why should Dinky Iris Sales get all the free promotion, when you do not.

I just don't get it.

Just finished reading your thread, too, Laurie - thanks for an interesting read. True, as Terry said on the thread, and polly said above, we don't want any spam - anywhere. I did add Classified Ads to my watch list.

I agree with your thinking, polly, and the promotion of any company whatsoever but not one of our own members. I don't get it either.

It does seem silly and counter-productive, doesn't it? If YOU want to promote Dinky Iris Sales because you are hosting a co-op through them, that's fine. If YOU want to promote MY classified ad, that's apparently fine. But if I want to promote MY OWN paid classified ad, that's not allowed. Where's the sense in any of that?

I understand wanting to reduce spam on the forums, and I think it's important to do so, but the loopholes in this policy negate any anti-spam effect it may have.

For example the most views on a current classified ad are 175. The last iris co-op had over 2,000 views. And I see the one from Aitkens last year had over 3000 views. Quite a different base for sales to be productive.

This part of the AUP concerns me, too:

Members are restricted from utilizing the Dave's Garden services for self-promotion of themselves, their website, or their organization, or to solicit items or monies for charities or fundraisers. Members may not utilize the service to create business opportunities, without express prior written permission from an officer of Dave's Garden. This includes, but is not limited to, advertising products or services in any communication medium, including, but not limited to, the discussion forums and the member E-mail system.
a) As of July 6th, 2006, members may promote their ventures in our classified advertising area.
---------------------------------------

So, if I'm reading this right, I wouldn't be allowed to tell polly about Laurie having a classified ad, via Dmail or on a thread?

pirl, it appears that the rule you quoted applies specifically and exclusively to "self" promotion. As far as I can tell, there's no restriction regarding promoting someone else's items for sale.

Even within the context of that rule, an exception is made by allowing users to link to their own website on their member page. Anyone who sells anything from their own website and has it linked on their member page is in direct violation of the rule you quoted, unless, of course, the fact that DG allows linking of one's own website on their own member page constitutes " ...express prior written permission from an officer of Dave's Garden."

So after say the third day of a sale we could lavish praise on the plants and packaging we received from someone and say how pleased we were and how good the prices were but we're not allowed to say the same thing about our own.

Since the Classified Ads viewership is so limited in number it would be nice if, at the top of just say the Iris Forum, Dave could insert a bright red star that said SEE CLASSIFIED AD BY JOESCHMOE.

You know, this entire thread really should be part of the thread I started about classified ads on the DG forum. I'm guessing that Dave will never see these remarks or suggestions on this forum.

Would it help if I sent a link to Terry? She's been so helpful to me with so many other things that maybe her voice will be heard.

I check both co-ops and classified ads. It seems like there have been lots of problems with the co-ops in the past, but I haven't heard of a single complaint about the classifieds.

I don't check the classifieds, I can barely find my way back to a thread I want to reread. If there were a red star at the top of the Iris forum saying Pirl was listing JI in the classifieds, I'd be tracking it down because I have seen pictures posted of her beautiful JI and I would trust her to send a quality product. I've read the co-op remarks from some of the sales and the members receiving Siberians from vendors aren't all that happy. Don't think that I would ever buy that way.

There is another thread where a member wants a greenhouse and wraps her plants with pretty paper and ribbons and plant info tags. DG members want to preregister for future offerings PrePay ?) So she can get the greenhouse she needs. Is this wrong? I see it as helping a fellow member and if they are happy with their plants, everyone benefits.

Right now, it seems that members aren't treated as well as vendors in the co-ops, definately room for improvement.
I love Dave's, I have learned so much since joining, and hope I have helped others, too.

Here's a link to Laurie's thread, which she mentioned:
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/776107/

Next I'll put a link to this thread on Laurie's thread.

Thanks for the post, mittsy. I don't know how the administrators feel about pre-paying for plants so someone can have a greenhouse. It's up to them, not me, to approve or not.

I think more can be done to promote subscribers and it's up to us to present ideas to Dave, for his consideration.

One point of clarifications - vendors can't run co-ops, so we're really not comparing apples to apples. They can't run co-ops because that would also violate the AUP - this is right below what Pirl quoted:

Vendors can take out a classified ad, and many of them do, and are happy with the results.

A member can organize a co-op/group purchase within the co-op forum, which is open only to subscribing members. That's really the only place that co-ops should be discussed, since other forums may be open or closed to non-subscribers, and that leads to some confusion when a forum or event is described, and some of those participating in the thread can't access the details.

Now, as to word-of-mouth about a classified ad. If you see an ad for something that is of interest to you, of course you can tell others. But if you're doing it because you want to help the member/vendor cross-promote their ad, then that would be wrong.

Several years ago, we had an issue with a vendor who tried to promote himself in our forums, and when we thwarted those efforts, he began asking his DG friends to "name drop", asking leading questions about his upcoming sales, new introductions, etc. He then felt entitled to address their questions - and promote his business.

We asked him to stop.

He pleaded ignorance.

We showed him the proof.

He became belligerent.

He was shown to the door - he's barred from the forums.

He's asked (demanded) to be allowed back many times, and we've refused.

He dropped his PlantScout enrollment. That's regrettable for him and us, but we won't ease up on this rule for him or anyone else, because if we did, the forums would be overrun with subtle and blatant forms of advertising.

Our members deserve better than that. They expect (and rightly so) that information and answers given by a fellow member don't have a profit motive attached.

Thank you for your time and all the information, Terry.

Then there is no violation of the "spirit of the laws" if we mention the ad of another person since, on this thread and I'm sure many others, we're intensely interested in one specific plant - Japanese irises. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Would you prefer this thread be a continuation of Laurie's thread?

Is there any chance Dave could alert readers as to Classified Ads when the plant in question is being offered, as I described above by a red star or a large print line just below the heading (as shown here) of -

IRISES: JAPANESE AND SIBERIAN IRISES?

It would help any of us who might be considering selling them and spreading the joy.

Just for clarification: I am not a vendor, have never sold a single plant, have no business cards, nothing actually more than purchased address labels with "pirl" on them!

This thread was intended to discuss the benefits of one method of selling, Classified Ads, over the advantages of co-ops. I should have reversed the wording in my initial post, obviously! While I've participated in some good co-ops (especially Aitkens JI's) I've had my share of big disappointments, too, with too many other co-ops. Positive repetitive Feedback on the person is critical to me but it's useless when a vendor offers plants and then finds not all cultivars are available or when they actually change an order due to lack of availability with no way for the buyer to withdraw their offer to purchase.

I appreciate your help, Terry. Thank you.

I would guess that any commercial grower who is acquainted with DG and who wants to offer a co-op would find it easy enough to find a DG member willing to organize a co-op on their behalf. I don't read any of the plant forums other than irises, but it's certainly common practice on this forum to discuss iris co-ops. I assume such co-op discussions commonly occur on the other plant forums, as well, providing lots of free advertising for commercial growers offering co-ops.

Pirl, I LOVE your idea of having some sort of "Red Star Alert" at the top of a forum about classified ads relevant to that forum. That would promote the Classified Ad Forum itself as well as relevant classified ad merchandise, and it would do so only to the audience most likely to actually want to purchase the specific item. It would satisfy the desire to alert friends to items in the classified section and would thereby reduce associated posts within the forums themselves. It should also discourage spammers from believing that they are "allowed" to promote wares within forum posts.

This could be made part of the Classified Ad submission form by allowing advertisers to request a "Red Star Alert" on a specific forum or forums. Heck, it could even increase DG ad revenue by doing something like including one "Red Star Alert" free for the price of the ad, then charging $1.00 per additional "Red Star Alert" on more than one forum with a limit of, say, 3-5 forums per ad. DG would retain the right to reject any ad or any "Red Star Alert" that it deemed inappropriate or inapplicable. I think it's a win/win suggestion all the way around!!!

Laurie

Laurie - you certainly made my day! I love your idea of first red star alert being free with the ad and then additional stars for extra payment. I second everything you said.

When I went to Classified Ads this morning I saw a house, clothes, raised beds and some seeds. For some reason I'd have thought there'd be more in the line of actual plants.

If we can all be diligent about reporting spammers we'll all enjoy DG even more, if that's possible.

I agree with Lauries first paragraph above. Any commercial grower that knows anything about DG, and luckily a lot do, can get a DG member to sponser the co-op. I respectfully disagree with Terry, I think many vendors do run the co-ops. It may not look like it, but you can tell they are doing it from start to finish. I think a vendor may contact a DG member and the DG member starts the thread, but then it's the vendor all the way from there. I watched this very closely on a couple of co-ops. And I know some of these co-ops were publicized throughout the forums, and even in private dmails..

I would love the idea of putting a 'red star alert' on the forums to alert people to forum related classified ads. I think it's a great idea to have one free, and then pay for other 'alerts'.

Is there any chance this could be initiated?

Daves Garden is just such a great place. Thanks for your input, Terry!

Whadya think, Terry and Dave? I think it's super idea, Laurie.

Thanks, boojum, but it was pirl's idea, not mine. I do agree that it's a super suggestion, though.

(Me, too!)

Sorry Pirl!!! It still is a great idea!

Quite alright!

I'm curious as to Dave's decision.

I think it would be very helpful to have a bold header at the top of each forum, if a new classified ad or co-op is posted that is selling their particular plant. I have missed co-ops and sales in the classifieds that I might have participated in if I had known about them in time. Everyone seems pushed for time and we cannot read everything, everyday.
Teresa in KY

As to adding any type of "alert" to each forum, that would be Dave's call, as it would involve programming to make it happen. There's also the philosophical question of whether our forums exist mainly to market and advertise stuff, or if they are here primarily for the membership to be able to converse with one another...(I guess it's easy to tell where my personal feelings come out on the matter ;o)

pollyk, if there are co-ops that are skirting the rules, it's up to the members to call the organizer on it, or bring it to the admin team's attention (there's a "contact us" link at the bottom of every page of DG.)

When we brought back the co-op forum, Dave was very clear that we would not be giving any sort of official "seal of approval" or endorsement on any co-op. We placed the responsibility squarely on the participant's shoulders to "police" themselves, and make sure that each one is run in accordance with the AUP, and report any infractions to us. If the vendors and organizers are taking advantage of our hands-off approach, then we may have to reconsider co-ops altogether.

Terry, I don't see that the co-ops are doing anything in non-compliance with the AUP. Even if vendors are making alliances with DG members to organize co-ops on their behalf, that is still compliant with the rule you quoted above as long as a DG member is the co-op organizer. Also, is there any rule in the AUP that specifies that co-ops may not be discussed in any forum other than the co-op forum? If not, there is no infraction there, either.

I don't see any reason for DG to narrow its focus to either discussions OR acquisitions. It is very clear from the wide participation in co-ops, trading, and the currently less active classified ads that DG members enjoy BOTH discussions AND acquisitions. That's what makes this such a successful community. There are areas of interest for all members, regardless of what any single member's preferences may be.

I hope Dave will read this thread and the one I started on the DG forum and consider the suggestions made.

Laurie

II again agree with Laurie. I did not see anything that the co-ops were doing that was against the rules. I saw nothing that said they could not mention the co-op outside the co-op forum, and as long as a DG member started the co-op it appeared to be within the rules.

I'm very happy with the way the co-ops are, and would like the classifieds to just get a little more activity, and I think Pirls suggestion would do it. And I don't think it would adversely affect any discussions.

Thank you,

Polly

I love to chat about flowers, ect but I also buy from several companies too. If a DGers has what I want for sale, I had rather give them the business. If it is not up to par then they will not get repeat business.