help - My new greenhouse has spidermites/ white flys

My new greenhouse is loaded with spidermites/ white flys
how do you control / prevent these problems ?
1. I have two fans which run 24/7
2. there are 4 windows which open in the roof
3. anytime the temp gets above 75 the evaporative cooler comes on and runs until the temp drops
4. the humidity runs at 87 degrees 76% at 68 degrees 60%
5. there is an electric oil heater which comes on at about 60 degrees



I am trying Garden Safe® Brand Fungicide3®
with one application many plant leaces shriveled up but after 5 days they are sprouting new growth
The bananas sohwed little reaction to the spray and the Brugs also do not show any adverse effects from the spray !
• 3 garden products in one! Fungicide, Insecticide and Miticide
• Prevents and controls black spot, powdery mildew, anthracnose, rust blight and other fungal diseases
• Kills eggs, larvae and adult stages of insects including aphids, scale, whiteflies, beetles and other listed pests
• Kills mites including spider mites
• Contains extract of neem oil, an all-natural product
• Organic Materials Review Institute listed, for use in organic gardening

Some people swear by worm castings to prevent whiteflies, you might try top-dressing your pots with some and see how that does. For spider mites, the best control I've found is to take each infected plant (and anything that was around the infected plants) and hose off the underside of the leaves. I repeat this every couple of days for a while. You might also see if you can increase your humidity, spider mites don't like high humidity. I'm not sure how high it has to be, but obviously higher than you have it now or else they wouldn't be there causing a problem. If you want to use a miticide, make sure you're spraying it on the underside of the leaves otherwise it won't do any good.

Both pests can be fairly easily managed with any of the following: soap sprays, neem oil, pyrethrin, permethrin. Permethrin is toxic to fish and cats, so watch that. Pyrethrin is also toxic to fish. A pyrethrum bomb might be an effective way to acheive quick control. Spider mites respond well to the straight blast of water that ecrane mentions, but whiteflies won't. Hit whiteflies when it is cool and they are relatively immobile. For both pests, you have to hit the undersides of the leaves. A friend of mine likes this product: http://www.thebugblaster.com/

Interesting idea, but it sure seems like it would do some serious damage to certain plants.

I've also had pretty good results with Disulfoton, beginning the applications about a month prior to moving stuff into the greenhouse (yeah, I know, too late for that, but there's always next year). For active pests on plants already inside, I prefer soaps. I have a bottle of Neem I plan on trying out this winter.

I bet the whiteflies are really attracted to the red salvia that you have on the left-that that was what brought them in. If it was my greenhouse, I would, in the early am (as early as possible-or at night) spray the crap out of the plants-esp underneath the leaves with a horticultural oil or Neem oil and then take off the lowest leaves of the salvia where the larvae are of the whiteflies and throw away the leaves in the garbage right away. Actually I would alternate spraying with Neem and the hort oil every 5 days-one or the other for a good 3 wks. Any other plant that you have in there that has the whitefly on it, remove the bottom leaves of those right now, if possible.

thanks for the suggestions so far, I seem to get the sense that these pests are in most greenhouses ?

so far I believe the suggestions include
1. Hort oil
2. neem
3. blast of water

can anyone tell me the difference between hort oil and neem and how they compare to the product I have sprayed once "Garden Safe® Brand Fungicide3 Contains extract of neem oil, an all-natural product"

the salvia you mention was grown from seed and has never been outside or in the ground. Most of the plants that are in my greenhouse are from seed. The bananas are from a local nursery the brugs mail order

Unfortunately, the whitefly don't care where or how a plant was grown! If it is there, they will come. There are some plants in your grhouse that the whiteflies are laying their eggs, and it is the same plant where they hang out-usually at the top of the plant on the newer leaves (underneath the leaf) and then they go downstairs to the oldest leaves and lay their eggs. Those are the plants that I am saying to remove the bottom leaves.

The difference between the hort oil and Neem oil is that Neem oil contains an extract of Neem from the Neem tree (like tea tree oil) that is mixed with the hort oil. Basically what you are doing with the oil (either one) is smothering the larvae and adults. It is very cheap and organic way of containing a population. You have to stay consistent in your spraying regime (every 5 days) to make sure that you get all the larvae as they hatch.
There are other qualities of Neem, but I dont really know them. I know it is known as a fungicide-but I think it is not very effective as such. I can promise you that if I have a fungus, I am not going to reach for the Neem. I did use it for some rust on my plumerias last week, and it didnt do a thing to stop it-spores were very active a few days later. The reason that I told you to alternate them is because it is just good growing practice to do that with any fungicide or pesticide, or else you have the possibiliy of a resistence being built up.

The white fly can be treated with Orthene. If you go to Lowe's, not sure if hoem depot has it, you can buy the bag of fire ant killer orthene. It will work on the white fly. Or you can hunt aroudn and get an Orthene fogger. If you us e a fogger, you have to make sure the greenhosue sealed and make sure you don't go in til it safe and then well ventalate before spendign anytime in there after fogging.

For the spidermite. There several types of spider mite, so you might want to get the type you have identified correctly. If it the 2 spotted souther red mite, it loves the hot dry weather and the control for it is products with abametin...Agrimach....decifiel...kethan.

Since, you just spraye d with the Garden Safe, and have damage wait a bit before hittign them with anythign again. Giv e them a chance to get some leaves to photosynthesize with again.

after applying Garden Safe® Brand Fungicide3® several times
Many plants have dropped their dried leaves nothing looks well and
I still have White flys and more so I brought out the malathion 50

we will see how they like that !!!

TL will disagree with me, but I have become convinced, based on my own observations and those of others, that repeated, frequent applications of Neem or other oils will harm plants and contribute to leaf drop in some cases. I use Neem but I mix it up with other products.

These whiteflies shouldn't be so hard to kill. Are you getting the undersides?

I agree with you SB! Yea!!! I am the one that is always saying to switch your products around-to alternate at least two different fungicides or pesticides when you have a problem so there is no resistence built up.

I also would not have used a product with a fungicide in it ( a 3 way) to go after whiteflies. The Malation is only going to kill the adults, whereas the oils will help with the larvae by smothering them, as well as the adults. I use a product that sterlizes the males....but also will use oils. Be careful with the malation-if you are already have leaf drop from spraying-something is wrong with something. I use pesticides and fungicides consistently thru the year and I never have any leaf drop.

Garden Safe fungicide is just Neem oil in water with a pinch of surfactant, it's not one of those things like you're probably thinking of that has multiple actives in it to do multiple things. It's just got the one active ingredient but they claim it as an insecticide, miticide, and fungicide. I've found it's not very efficacious on fungus in my personal experience, it seems to work OK on insects and mites but I honestly prefer the smell of insecticidal soap and it works just as well on the things I'm usually trying to get rid of!

The first plants I sprayed with Garden Safe® Brand Fungicide3®
I layed the pots on their sides and sprayed the complete plant until the spray was running off all surfaces top and bottom
those plants dropped all of their leaves and are resprouting from the base of the plant

the next batch I sprayed but did not get then so wet
I just covered the leaves top and bottom
about half of their leaves are dry brown

I have four small bananas
one is not happy

check next one for closeup of trunk

could this damage be from the neem oil ?

or spraying it

or under watering
(I use a moisture meter and don't water unless the soil down 1 inch is not moist ?

this plant has the only noticable infestation

I have sprayed it with garden safe 3 neem
sep 21, sep 25, oct 4

and malathion Oct 8

the greenhouse has been between 80 degrees at 75% humidity and 59 degrees at 44% humidity the entire time

I don't use the neem too often, but I've never noticed any damage to the plants from it. However, since it's an oil, if you apply it and then the sun is beating down on the plants it could cause them to burn. But the damage could just be from the spider mites too--I get spider mite infestations every summer and I generally control them using the garden hose. But a few days to a week later after I've done the hose treatment and got rid of the mites, some of the leaves that had been more badly damaged by the mites before I caught them tend to turn brown and die. If I'd been using a product on the plants, it would have been very easy to conclude that it was the product that caused the damage, but since all I've used was water I know that can't be the case, and it's just the end result of the mite damage. I don't know if the same thing would happen in the case of plants that were attacked by white flies or not.

I don't know, ecrane-but that looks like a burn to me-too much of the plant, too fast.Spider mites are going to take a plant down, leaf by leaf-and its a fairly slow process (compared to damage from chemicals-fert, pesticides etc, which is almost always overnight or in two days), and noticeable. The leaves turn almost white with damage from the mites, and you know its coming if you don't spray right away and remove all infected leaves.

What is this Garden Safe??? lol only Neem oil and water? It acts like roundup! Did all or most of this damage occur before or after the malathion? Spray that in the heat of the day/late am and it will damage your plants.

Jim-I suspect that you have been spraying in the heat of the day-or right before it gets hot and the sun is shining directly on the plants-that is the only thing that i can think of. Also, I think that you should give the plants more of a rest than 4 days (which you did twice). Usually, with the right stuff, applied at the right time of day (early am or late afternoon) and at the right rate (do you think there is a chance that you got the rate wrong on the malation? that would explain the extensive damage as well), I maybe spray once ( depending on the insect) or every 5-7 days, using a different product.

At any rate-I would cut off all damaged leaves, and all leaves that have mites on them that are alive ( hard to believe there still is...lol). I would increase your water a bit (but don't keep them soaked), so as to not to stress the plants anymore than they are, and water in the am, and not at night. Your plants are susceptable to a fungus right now, and you don't want them going into the evening with wet foliage. I would also fertilize them , half strength, every 5 days to encourage more leaf growth.

Did all or most of this damage occur before or after the malathion?
answer -- yes all of the damage came before the malathion

Spray that in the heat of the day/late am and it will damage your plants.
answer -- the greenhous is shaded by the house in the afternoon
I have waited to spray after the sun is off the greenhouse which is about
2 pm and the plants have dried way before the 7 pm darkness

I think that you should give the plants more of a rest than 4 days (which you did twice).
answer-- I have been unsure of reapplication rate for the neem oil
some have recommended 7 days and others 3 days
I think their rasoning had to do with the hatch rate of the insect
and whether the spray would kill the eggs

do you think there is a chance that you got the rate wrong on the malation?
answer -- I measured 2 oz of concentrate per gallon of water
but the plants have not gotten worse since the malathion spray but better


that would explain the extensive damage as well), I maybe spray once ( depending on the insect) or every 5-7 days, using a different product.
answer -- do you do anything to kill the resident insect population in the soil under the greenhouse table

question which products do you use ? please give specifics as I find it hard to figure out some recomendations. I spent some time today trying to figure out what product is called "bayer complete insect control" I find that beyer has a product "Carbaryl (seven) described as a "complete insect control ready-to-use" but am nsure if that is the product used in greenhouses

It's clearly stated on the label. =(

As to Carbaryl, it's a pretty wicked insecticide. I've used it before [1], but only as a last resort. Think of it as the "Roundup" of insecticides. It's pretty much non-selective (It doesn't care if it's a mite, whitefly, dog, beetle, cat [2], bee [3], etc.). It works by disrupting the insect's (or other animal's) nervous system.

As others have stated, it's a good idea to use different products. But, NOT on a schedule that's half of the recommended time for the product. Insects have an uncanny way of developing tolerances to insecticides, when constantly exposed to the same ones.

READ THE LABELS! Don't go soley by what people recommend. READ THE ENTIRE LABEL! I don't think that I could stress that enough.You're dealing with products designed to kill living organisms. That little fold-out label taped to the side of the bottle, with the tiny tiny writing on it is worth reading cover to cover.

Also, a lot of products shouldn't be used together (within a certain timeframe). I don't have a bottle of insecticidal soap handy, but IIRC it stated not to use it with oils (just as an eggszample). The label will inform you if there's any problems with it's use with other products. Some insecticides (Neem, for instance), may also have warnings about using them on certain plants. Again, the information will be on the label.

If you're going to have a greenhouse, you're going to have pest problems. There's really no way around that. The "perfect" environment you're trying to create for your plants, is also quite a happy place for insects (both beneficial and pest).


[1]. Not Bayer, but Carbaryl concentrate.

[2]. It's *very* toxic to cats. They were the most sensitive to it, of all animals it was tested on (an oral LD50 between 125 and 250 mg/kg).

[3]. Carbaryl is also acutely toxic to bees. Not a greenhouse problem, I know, but the bees have enough problems right now, so I thought I'd mention it. Like I said, it's pretty wicked. ;)

HTH,
Eggs

eggs thanks for your advice and I feel understand all of it.

to tell someone to read the label is a cop out, If the beginner did not graduate from law school he or she has little hope of understanding the label. I have read the label thouroughly and it does not tell you how and when to use the product. The best I can understand is label writing is a welfare program for lawyers.

The labels I have show mix rates, if you can find them in all the fine print
The labels do not give more than a few plant types and there is nowhere to find the exact information for the plant one wants to cure

For example it seems logical to me that sealing a plants pores with oil will cause it much distress and covering it with oil should prevent the plant from exchanging gases. The label does not discuss the effect on the plant at all it just talks about the insect.

but what us beginners need is advice of what to do
or examples of what you do ?

What products do you use ?
when ?
why?

or was your tirade from a treehugger who does not kill insects ???

Here is what I do, more or less, in the winter...

Weekly spray alternating between Neem, soap (baby shampoo), pyrethrin, and a straight water blast, so each is applied about every 4 weeks. Spot treat infestations of mealybugs or scale with alcohol on a Q-tip. For heavier infestations on nonedibles I use acephate (Orthene). On selected, containerized ornamentals (Hibiscus, gardenia) I have found imidacloprid (Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub) to be extremely helpful against whiteflies, 2T/gallon, water in well once in the fall. On selected plants susceptible to scale I will apply horticultural oil about every three or four months.

I partner this with just a little bit of companion planting, an underused technique.

Hope that helps.

SB

Ahh, ok. My advice was a "cop out". *sigh*

If you had read the label, you wouldn't have applied twice in 5 days, when the label clearly states 7-14 day intervals, with heavy infestations requiring a 7 day schedule. If you had read the label thoroughly, as you stated, you wouldn't have made the above comment.

Jim, EVERY insecticide label has the application rate. Every single one. It would be illegal for them to sell the product without putting the application rate on the label. If the print is too small, I grab a magnifying glass. If I'm still having trouble, I look up the label online. There, you can make that text any size you need. There's an MSDS sheet online for them all, too.



Ok, cheap shots I don't need. I'll just unsubscribe from this thread now, before I forget this isn't The USENET, and reply as such.

Best of luck with your insect problem.
Eggs

*poof*

Here's the score:

Ortho Insect Bomb = 1
Whiteflies = 0

Skip

page 75 "Whitefly can be a real problem in the greenhouse because they are difficult to control at egg and larval stages. To overcome their resistance to chemical control it is necessary to make repeat treatments every four to seven days for about three weeks. In this way all the whitefly in the greenhouse will have been treated at adult stage at least once."

page 118
Spray with systemic insecticide. Several sprays may be necessary to gain control

GH Gardening step by step to growing success by Jonathan Edwards

Jim, I agree with the page 75 statement. Most often I spray regardless of whether or not I have a pest outbreak...sort of a prophylactic spray. I know other hobbyist GH owners who do the same. By switching sprays you limit any toxicities and also maybe any emerging resistance.

Not sure what he means by "Spray with systemic insecticide." I always thought that systemics were absorbed through the plant roots like the imidacloprid.

I went back again and looked at your pics. I think you may have at least a couple of other pests there. In the last pic, there appear to be a darker insect...aphids? Also, the aquilegia damage looks a lot like spider mites to me.

Acephate (orthene) is considered a systemic by some. It is absorbed thru the leaves and not the roots. It is a very short lived systemic, imo, and I don't consider it a systemic.

A rule of thumb, that I have seen is that a "real" systemic is applied thru the soil, absorbed by the roots and into the plant. They are also very expensive and you use a small amt at a time. A good example is Subdue-a fungicide which is about $ 130.00/qt, but you only use 2T/100 gallons.

edited to say-just looked at the last picture again also-the dark spots look like fungus gnats. Aphids generally are a light color (light tan, green ect) and always are on the underneath of the leaf first. A heavy infestation will show them up at the top on the newest leaf, where you can then see them.

I agree about the whitish leaves looking like spider mites. The best thing you can do for your insect problem is to clean up the plants-remove all the infected leaves and damaged leaves and put them in a garbage bag. That is the most proactive thing that you can do right now. Doesn't matter if you have to almost strip a plant of their leaves-
The only exception that I know of to the above is Bayers Tree and Shrub-(which also contains imidacloprid-and maybe Merit (also imidacloprid-granular form-I think I paid around $ 50 (?) for a 40 lb bag). I have never used the Bayer but I hear very good things about it on this website-so I may give it a try. The problem I would have with it is that if the rate is 2T/gallon of water, I mix up 20 gallons at a time in a sprayer and thats 40T of the stuff-I need more concentrated chemical that take 2T/20 gall

Jim, you asked what I use and as a commercial grower, I use chemicals that are not readily on the market, nor practical for the homeowner to use as they are expensive and it would take a person a lifetime to use. SB is the one to listen to here.

This message was edited Oct 13, 2007 8:20 AM

To chemically control whiteflies on ornamentals (not food crops), spray plants with a systemic insecticide containing acephate at least three times at intervals of four to six days. Whiteflies may also be partially controlled with yellow sticky traps; place yellow sticky stakes upright in each container. To chemically control thrips on ornamentals, spray plants with an insectiside containing acephate, bifenthrin, or malathion.

"Ortho's all about Greenhouses"

Two sources (above) recommend every 3-4 days

the label says 7 or more days
IS THIS THE LAWYER TALKING or is there something I missed ?

I now have

1. Bayer "Complete insect killer for soil and turf" concentrate which contains both Imidacloprid (MERIT) and beta-cyfluthrin (TEMPO Ultra)
label instructions -- for severe infestations, repeat every 7 to 14 days

2. Ortho "Systemic Insect Killer" which contains Acephate and Fenbutain-oxide
label instructions "for hard to kill insects such as Mealybugs, flower Thrips, Whiteflies, mites and scales, spray 2 to 3 times, waiting 7 to 10 days between applications

in summary the recomendations above are:

ecrane3 -- hose off the underside of the leaves. I repeat this every couple of days

stressbaby --- managed with any of the following: soap sprays, neem oil, pyrethrin, permethrin; acephate (Orthene). ; imidacloprid (Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub)

eggs_zachtly --- pretty good results with Disulfoton, prefer soaps. I have a bottle of Neem

tigerlily123 --- alternate spraying with Neem and the hort oil every 5 days. switch your products around-to alternate at least two different fungicides or pesticides. clean up the plants-remove all the infected leaves and damaged leaves and put them in a garbage bag

starlight --- white fly can be treated with Orthene, whitefly control is products with abametin..---.Agrimach.decifiel...kethan.

nautical99 ---Ortho Insect Bomb

so what frequency should I use now ?
let it rest and see what develops next or
start a weekly regimine ?

I assume that I should alternate
1. Ortho "Systemic Insect Killer"
2. Bayer "Complete insect killer for soil and turf" concentrate

1. I have cleaned removed leaves, pruned dead branches, and removed the trash

spraying so far !
I have sprayed it with
"garden safe 3 neem" sep 21, sep 25, oct 4, Oct 11
and malathion Oct 8

Ok Jim-I understand your confusion. What is going to be helpful to you is to understand the bug that you are trying to klll. You need to find out where he hangs out, where he lays his eggs, how long before the eggs hatch and what kills just the adult and what will kill the eggs/larvae. It all starts there. The info that you find out will dictate what you spray, when and how often, and where on the plant you have to spray (some things you only need to hit the tops of the leaves, some you have to get underneath the leaves)
Then when you find the right chemical/oil/soap, you will find out the right rate (label), whether it is a systemic or kills on contact, and what stage of the bug will it kill-which will then dictate how often you spray. For example-most chemicals do not kill the larvae of the whitefly-so you have to spray every 5 days to get the larvae as they hatch before they breed. That is why the hort oil/Neem is so good/easy to use-it will smother the larvae-or slow down the breeding/population of the whitefly.

Most of the chemicals do the job in different ways. You need to understand the ways that the chemical you are spraying does the job, so you can use it effectively and not harm the plant/waste your time ect.

At the same time, never let the population build up to the point where the bug is destroying the plant ( the last picture with the spider mites) you have to take the time, right away, to remove those leaves. Same with the whitefly eggs on the bottom leaves of the plants. The whitefly hangs out on the plant that it lays its eggs on, so it just takes a min to take those bottom leaves off. You can see the eggs/larvae if you look closely underneath the leaf. That is an essential part of keeping a grhouse.

I would do nothing now-if in a few days you see more adult whiteflies-use the Bayer. It is a systemic and lasts, as I understand from this website-at least 9 months (although frankly, I have a hard time believing it) but it should last at least a month. Takes about a week for the plant to absorb it and start working. Keep fert at a lower rate every week to help your plants get back some leaves, although keep in mind that they are going into a semi-dormancy now-and will be growing at a slower rate (hence the half strength)

what kind of bug am I killing
at this point I see a few whiteflies maybe 20 in the whole greenhouse

the columbine are still the worst
i am attaching a closeup of the top and another of the bottom of the leaves

and the top

the Bayer names are too similar
the one I have is

Bayer
"Complete Insect Killer For Soil & Turf" Concentrate
The only product that combines two targeted chemistries in one granule to achieve true maximum protection from insects that attack from above the ground and the ones that attack from below.
Fast acting formula works 2 ways for powerful insect control
Kills insects both above & below ground
Long-lasting - up to 90-day subsurface insect protection

When to Use:
When insects or damage first appear
Grubs - May through July

Active Ingredients:
Imidacloprid: 0.15% B-Cyfluthrin: 0.05%

My recommendation on hosing off undersides of the leaves was for the spider mites--I've never had white flies (knock on wood!) so I don't know anything about getting rid of them(although the undersides of your leaves look like they've got a lot of stuff on them, probably wouldn't hurt to clean them off as well as applying your pesticide of choice)

Imidacloprid is the systemic insecticide that goes in the soil and is taken up by the roots. Never heard of Cyfluthrin so I don't know what it does, I'm sure someone else will know.

Jim-did you leave those leaves on the plant? i hope you striped that plant of all leaves that show any sign of spidermites-at this point, this seems your biggest problem, and removing the leaves of all infected leaves is going to help alot. That columbine is probably going to go dormant anyway.

The product that you have is, is for outside in the ground. The Bayer that everyone uses is the one that SB mentioned and you can get it at Home depot.

Tigerlily
I think you are confusing the
"Complete Insect Killer For Soil & Turf" Concentrate which I have with another product

stressbaby --- suggested two acephate (Orthene). ; imidacloprid (Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub)

and I have both
1. Bayer "Complete insect killer for soil and turf" concentrate which contains both Imidacloprid (MERIT) and beta-cyfluthrin (TEMPO Ultra)
label instructions -- for severe infestations, repeat every 7 to 14 days

2. Ortho "Systemic Insect Killer" which contains Acephate and Fenbutain-oxide
label instructions "for hard to kill insects such as Mealybugs, flower Thrips, Whiteflies, mites and scales, spray 2 to 3 times, waiting 7 to 10 days between applications

or am I confused ???

tigerlily123 says to "removing the leaves of all infected leaves is going to help a lot"

that would leave the plant with no leaves
which would be a pot with roots in it if I understand correctly !!

I have about 1 more hour of sun on the greenhouse then it will be fully shaded by the house. That will be about 5 pm

we will have two hours of light after that. It is about 80 degrees outside and sunny
72 degrees in the greenhouse. things dry quickly with the two fans runnung in the greenhouse

is that a good condition to spray
or would you spray in the morning when it will have sun for the whole day ?