Organic Garden Talk 8/26 thru......

Hi Everyone, This thread is for talking about what is going on with you and your garden. The thread will run a few days, so it is easier to keep up and talk.

Today I had done my least desirable thing to do in the garden: deal with pests. It looked like a swarm of locusts cut down my Mexican Rose plants, so I cut them all back and splashed Cayenne, Vinegar, and Soap everywhere.

Whats happening with you?

I am busy harvesting tomatoes (finally the are ripe!), and building a new raised bed for my fall planting of onions, garlic and shallots.

I am also trying to figure out where I want to make a permanent bed for my Egyptian Walking Onions, so that they can be left to walk about as they please!
This year I grew them in a small raised bed, and that does not lend itself well to letting them do what they are meant to do - so they big question is: where - and can I get it ready in time for planting. Otherwise, they will have to go in my new raised bed also, and wait for next year for their permanent home.

Something is bothering my peppers. Some of them just rot on the vine. This is true for both ground grown and earthbox grown. Any ideas? I shouldl probably post the question on the pepper forum.

Hi Everyone,

This is what I'm up to in the garden. Just finished turning over another bed, as my earlier tomatoes were finished. I don't allow uncovered raised beds. I always sow turnip seed or buckwheat to keep the beds covered and weed free. I have a fall compost pile started. Shredded leaves and my bunnies give me plenty of manure, and I have a bale of rotted straw. I'll turn that under in about two months, and spread it evenly over the beds to break down during winter. Virginia has plenty of rain in the fall, and sometimes we get snow. I'll let all this moisture break down my compost. I save brown paper bags and use them as mulch between the garden rows. I like mulch, but don't like the price, so I use paper bags to hold down the weeds. I killed a lot of Japanese beetles this summer. I use Dawn dish det, and a glass jar. I just scooped them in and closed the jar.

essentialplanet,

Just a thought here about the rotten peppers. Maybe it's the pepper maggot. They do have a "season", where they invade and leave holes. It doesn't sound like the problem is blossom end rot, it sounds more like the pepper maggot.

Arias,

Thanks for the suggestion. Do you know if we have pepper maggots in Oregon. I posted the question (along with your suggestion that it might be the maggot) to the pepper forum to see if anyone either confirms this or has another theory.

If it is pepper maggot, does it have any natural enemies that might control it in the future?

nothing left but peppers and okra and a couple spaghetti squash and cantaloupe. corn root worms got my fall corn. I'm about to plow up all but these two rows havnt decided what to plant. thinking about waiting a bit and planting cabbage ,broccoli turnips for winter.

Hi Everyone,

Interesting to see what you are all doing and to compare the weather and warmth in all the different zones.

I've been sowing all the different Chinese vegetables this week outdoors for quick growing crops into autumn and winter, and I've made the last sowing of lettuce, some swiss chard and some overwintering onions in the greenhouse.

Today's job is to pick the Early Worcester apples - I've already got a clothes basket full and I've not got a quarter of them, and they are so ripe they are falling off while I'm trying to pick them. I've just checked the other early apple - Sunset - and they are also ready, but not falling off just yet. So I think my neighbours will all be making apple pie this week.

There are also some Oulins Golden Gage plums ready, which won't keep, and if I leave them on the tree the wasps will get them. I may hang a jamjar, with a bit of old jam in it diluted with some water, in the tree as that usually catches lots of wasps. You just have to check to make sure no butterflies go in it too, and the bees don't seem to bother with it.

I've not come across pepper maggots, but have had a small moth making a nuisance of itself in the greenhouse. It is one of those that rolls the leaves up and the caterpillars hatch out inside and then eat large chunks of the plants. Any suggestions for an organic solution to the problem? I do try to check the plants for rolled up leaves, but they aren't easy to spot. Its favourite plant is the Kiwi fruit and then geraniums and some other ornamentals.

Oh and I've just made a few jars of raspberry jam from the Autumn Bliss.

Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) should take care of the caterpillars and it won't harm much of anything besides caterpillars (won't take care of the adult moths though). If you're growing a lot of host plants hoping to attract and create habitat for butterflies I would hand pick the cats instead because the Bt will kill nice cats as well as the nasty ones.

Thanks ecrane3, I am trying to hand pick them, but they are very difficult to see among all the foliage - until they have done the damage. Is the Bt the one you water on?

The bees took over the Hummingbird feeders, so I have hanging dishes of organic sugar water for the bees. I lost two of three colonies of bees probably from the Sudden Colony Collapse, and the third colony is a lot smaller. I hope the sugar water helps the bees multiply, because I see a big difference at the garden this year. Last year I had lots of bees hovering around the tops of the corn stalks, and this year just a couple bees. Today I see tons of bees at the feeder. I liked reading about your garden activities.

Ecr - Nice to see you here; I've read a lot of your posts and I enjoy them.
Pat - Your garden sounds fun and delicious!
Ted - Hi; sorry to hear about your corn.
Arias - I like soil building, too. I haven't gotten to cover crops yet.
Ess - What is an earthbox? Yesterday I planted my first walking onions bulblets from a single plant I have in a pot. It will go in the ground soon.

I've never had much luck with cukes, but this year I grew White Wonder and Pioneer on a tower, and they were doing great until they got mildew this week. I researched organic treatments and found a description of a spray made from baking soda and horticultural oil in water, and last night I mixed some up and my sprayer immediately broke. I ended up pouring the stuff over the cucumber leaves. Pioneer is supposed to be tolerant to mildew; I'm not sure about White Wonder. I guess I'll find out. The vines have tons of flowers but I have not seen many bees. This morning I saw that the squash leaves have also got the mildew.:(

The chipmunk who thinks it owns my patio has been harvesting squash blossoms and smuggling them up the drainpipe, little son of a gun. I guess I am going to have to get some of that hot pepper stuff.

essentialplanet,

A little info about the pepper maggot. The pepper maggot overwinters as a pupa in the soil. Adults emerge from the soil in mid June to mid August. After mating the female lays her eggs in the pepper pods. She punctures the peppers several places and deposits the eggs.The eggs hatch and begin to feed on the inside walls of the peppers.

About the only way to control it is crop rotation, and garden clean-up. I would not advise you to compost any plants that were infested with pepper maggots. Bag the plants and throw them in the trash. Some people have luck with sticky traps, and tanglefoot. I would not spray any chemicals on my plants. Just good garden clean up, rotation, and destroying infected plants. Yes, I think they are all over the country, including Oregon.

Pat--on the Bt, I'm not sure what forms it's available in. The only one I've ever used is the "Mosquito Dunks" which are solid and don't dissolve in water, but I know there are other forms available too. I imagine someone sells it in a form that you could put in water and spray on things.

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply has Bt. Its at http://www.groworganic.com

tigpie:
For more about earthboxes:
http://www.earthbox.com/

Arias:
I think it is pepper maggots I have, after I read your description. I have thrown a few of the affected peppers on the compost pile, so I gather that is not wise...?

Hi all. I'm new to gardening and definitely lean heavily towards being as organic as possible. Sometimes I get surprised and saddened by the looks I get from some of our friends when I tell them I don't allow pesticides, herbicides, or chemical fertilizers in my yard. I thought the Gen X'ers were supposed to be quite environmentally conscious as a whole. But as we are all relatively new homeowners, I guess they are just too determined to have perfectly green and lush lawns? Even my husband is a little too quick to reach for Weed B Gone at the sight of weeds, but he's learning. I keep telling him I've noticed so many more birds in our yard this year compared to last. =)

We've been fighting weeds a lot since we neglected the yard the first summer here. I'm wondering if it is common for bagged compost and mulch to have a lot of weed seeds in it? It seems like after putting some down this spring, the weeds have increased even though we have been diligently using corn gluten meal since last year. Now I'm considering spreading more corn gluten meal after putting down any amendments. Are there any drawbacks to that?

I also started using nematodes for grub control this year. I hope this will help with iris borers but I just started with it so I haven't really noticed a difference yet.

What are your favorite tips and tricks for organic gardening? I love the Weed Hound for pulling weeds in the lawn.

essentialplanet,

Fish them out [ the peppers in the compost pile] you don't want them to overwinter in your compost pile, and return next summer. I routinely pull up and bag all tomato plants and pepper plants. They never come near my compost pile. I am very selective about what goes in my compost. Same for squash and cucumber vines. If there are any insects in these plants, you will introduce them next summer to the new vegetables. Clean garden practices reduce the chance of eggs/pupa/larva/ etc hanging around until next spring. Turn your soil over a few times in late fall or early winter. This willl expose any eggs, etc, to the cold. Next year, you may want to try floating row covers to keep the adult females from laying their eggs inside the peppers. It's too late to save this pepper crop. I think they are mostly infected by the time you see the damage. Sorry. I lost some too this summer due to the maggots. It happens when you don't use chemicals to control them.

Hi,

Thanks for the advice! I cannot fish the peppers back out, because I have a compost pile that is roiling with Soldier Fly larva, and they consume any food leftovers I put out within hours. I won't throw any more there, however.

As for loosing some veggies due to not using chemicals, it is a trade-off I gladly make. In fact, I don't even consider it a trade-off. Using chemicals or pesticides is just not even an option. I fcount on on loosing some of my produce, and just plant enough that hopefully there will still be enough left over for me!

I also do plant stuff to attract the beneficials that will help control some of the pests, and that is a fun thing to explore!

Today I got of my usual routine, and forgot about the seedlings, so they were in 100 degrees, but only in direct sun for 30 minutes, and had not been watered this morning, so I may have to reseed.

par - Hi; have you had a lot of wet weather? Hope the mildew solution works.

wic - Hi; i don't have a lawn now, but I use to apply rye grass seed on a regular basis to crowd out weeds. A lot of soil additives do have weed seeds. I would put the additives under black plastic for awhile to allow the heat to kill everything. I live in a hazardous wildfire area, and things combust easily (low humidity), so I don't do that here. In the long run your lawn will be healthier looking, because chemicals exhaust plants and soils and organics build up. I use Dr. Earth fertilizers, with noticable results.

Just remembered about the Egyptian walking onions, I've had a clump at the end of the herbaceous border for years, they move about a bit, but blend in with the other plants and I always know where they are when I want to use any.

We've had a very strange growing season in the UK. It started off with a fairly mild winter, followed by the hottest April on record, then the wettest June with floods etc. Then it has been showery and dull for several weeks and we have just seen a bit of warmer weather for the last two or three weeks so the Aubergines, pumpkins and squashes have been pathetic - needing warmth and sunshine and everything in the greenhouse has been much more prone to moulds and mildews even though I've tried to keep it well ventilated. The potatoes, which I thought would have liked plenty of water gave up the ghost in July. So it has been quite strange. We have had lots of lovely peas and beans though and lots of lettuce and the brassicas all look good, so it isn't all doom and gloom.

Wow it was hot at the garden today. It was 102 under my shade structure, where I also have the 10 misters overhead. I got a headache from the heat, even though I kept wet by turning on the rainbird sprinkler and standing in front of it. I had to sort a lot of reclyclables over near the garden, because I'm going to town Friday. Its the next biggest town, which I don't get to too often. My town is 2600 pop. ; The town 10 miles south is 4000 pop.

Pat - You solved my problem. I couldn't decide where to plant the walking onion; now I see that it will be perfect with the herbs. I'm surprised that your garden survived with all that adverse weather! I saw pictures of all that flooding on Wunderground. What are Aubergines?

Hi Tigpie,

Aubergines are Eggplants

Hi Ess,

Now I recall learning that about eggplants. I saw the earthbox. Does it work as well as the photos show?

Just had a look at the earth box. It doesn't look very organic with all that plastic, fertilizer bands etc. It should get good results though with all that control over nature. I bet they are expensive too. I'm afraid I prefer things to be much more natural in my garden. I suppose an earth box is useful for people who don't have any soil to grow things in.

Hi Pat & Tigpie,

I grow organic in the earthbox. No different than growing in a plastic container - but if that is something you don't want to do, then it's not for you. I use Whitney Farms organic fertilizer for my fertilizer strip. Things are indeed thriving in the earthbox, and though I grow a lot in my raised beds, it is nice to also be able to grow food on my very sunny concrete area on the North side of the house.

I am including a couple of pictures, though they were taken a month and a half ago. First tomatoes, then peppers.

Peppers in Earthbox (mid July)

essentialplanet,

Gorgeous peppers, so lush and green. Close by the house too, for quick picking.

Hi Arias,

Thanks. They are actually up against the wall of the shop, but the shop is real close to the house so they are still near enough for easy picking at dinner time.

Hi Everyone,
I ate my first Armenian Cucumber yesterday. I was working near the garden for a long time, then got hungry: it was a perfect meal for the heat. I don't really know how to tell when its ready; it was about 18" long! They are thriving in this heat.
I have a bunch of Bell Peppers on the top of a bush, and they are starting to scald; they are still small. I threw a piece of burlap over the plant. Why did they grow like that? It doesn't help that I have something eating a lot of leaves from the top of the bush. (though they were exposed before the eating of the leaves) I have 6 bushes, and its just that one bush. Any ideas?
I bought 4 small mums today for Fall decor on the porch. Hope I get some Blue pumpkins from the garden. I have Indian Corn that is 4' and thriving. And I bought 3 more clay saucers for froggy swimming pools in the garden. And I bought a 15 lb bag of organic bone meal, which I use in tea form for economy and better absorbtion.
Ess - yeah, those earthboxes work well. A friend saw your post and bought one. Is your zone8b the Sunsets description? We will probably move to Northeast Washington to a zone5-6. I think the ideal zone would be a 7. I call my zone "The Twilight Zone".

I was going to order Earthbox's earlier in the year but had misplaced the order form I had.I went online and found this
http://www.seattleoil.com/Flyers/Earthbox.pdf
I used 33 gal bins from Stearilite.I made 28 and grew in them all summer.I am in the process of making another couple of dozen.They work really well.However I do not use the synthetic fertilizer that they recommend.I use blood meal/bone meal,compost and Azomite.
Granted these are a bit time consuming to make but I can crank out 4 of them in an afternoon.They cost about $10-$12 each.

Hi, everyone. Just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Pattie, and I've been gardening organically for about 17 years. I've been on DG for three gardening seasons, but I'm just now getting around to introducing myself here.

We have a great source in the Dallas area--the Dirt Doctor. He went organic about the same time I did, and back in the days when there weren't many of us around, he was a great help. He's not just in this area any more--he has good advice for organic gardeners everywhere. I don't agree with everything he says. (Pssst... his homemade mosquito repellent doesn't work.) But when I have a problem I don't know the answer to, his site is always the first place I look.

Someone asked for tips and tricks. These days, most of my organic program is straightforward, commonly-known knowledge. For me, organic gardening has become way easier over the years. We used to have to go across the world to get all the products we wanted. And then we'd break our backs mixing things up, and THEN it would still be 5 years before anything looked decent. But a lot of research has been done since then, and now there's a high-quality organic product for most any need. The only thing I use that (IMO) doesn't get enough attention is greensand. Either the Texas or NJ variety.

One"little extra" thing I do is keep leftover liquids from my kitchen--all the leftover drinking water, beer, milk and coffee. I pour all of that in gallon milk jugs. Yeah, it gets kinda gross while I'm collecting it. But until you do start collecting it, you don't realize how much beneficial stuff you're pouring down the drain! When my jug is full, I dilute it and use it for watering wherever. If I'm making my fertilizer concoction, I add it to that. If I can't find an immediate use for it, I pour it in the compost pile. The coffee adds a nitrogen boost (we leave our grass clippings, so I'm always short on greens). The milk adds anti-fungal properties, and the yeast in the beer encourages microbial activity in the soil.

I don't measure any of those things. If I have to dilute, I go by sight. But the beauty of organics is that--unless you're using manure--you can't really overdo it and hurt your plants. There are a few exceptions besides manure. But mostly, the worst that will happen is that you didn't spread your resource around enough. Even then, you're still adding good things to the soil, and it will still be there to benefit your plants when they need it.

Another thing I do, whenever I can, is let my municipal water sit before use. I don't have a rain barrel (yet), so this sort of compensates. We have very hard water. I fill gallon jugs and then let them sit a couple of days before watering. It seems to help prevent that mineral buildup. At the very least, it gives the chlorine time to dissipate. Obviously I can't use it for everything. But for hand-watering, and especially for potted plants, it really helps.

Couple of comments about commonly-used organic products. I know it's an organic staple, and it brings great results. But I don't use fish emulsion. We are mostly in shade, and we're on a postage-stamp urban lot, and by the time that horrid smell goes away, it's time to apply it again. In the meantime, every cat in town has arrived, and when they can't find any fish, they go after the other wildlife. I'm a cat-lover, so I have nothing against them! But I have my own cats, and we grow catmint which is enough attraction, so we don't need the extra fish "fragrance" from fish emulsion. There are other ways to do the same things.

We think dried molasses is an amazing additive, and we use it, but only with caution. We've been under watering restrictions and can't always water it in. The last time we left it dry, every fly within 300 miles was on our lawn the next morning. LOL! Works better for us to use plain old liquid blackstrap molasses in our teas.

Here are the products we use every year. This is in order of importance, but that's relative because we think they are all important. Compost, alfalfa and/or cottonseed, beneficial nematodes (fire ants, grubs, and termites), Cedarcide (serious mosquitos here), Texas greensand (iron, trace minerals, and soil improvement), corn gluten meal (pre-emergent and some fertilization), soft colloidal phosphate, yeast, Neem, horticultural vinegar, corn meal, milk, liquid seaweed, and peroxide (in the pond only, for algae). If I can get them without selling off my first-born, I'd put chicken and rabbit manure on the list too.

This message was edited Oct 10, 2007 4:09 AM

pbtxlady,

Hi and welcome. I'm very impressed with the infomation you left. Especially the milk jug collections. I'm going to start using the coffee and water for diluting. I've been swishing out the milk jugs for a long time, and putting that on my outside house plants. There is never any left over beer in my house. ha ha . I know what you mean about fish emulsion, only with me , I had a million flies and gnats. It seems as though you just have it together as far as organics are concerned. You have made my day.

Aw, Arias, that's so nice. But I definitely don't "have it together." It took years before my organic gardening began to show. I only stuck with it because of my personal philosophy. *I* didn't want to be responsible for the harmful effects of chemicals. I definitely didn't stick it out because things looked better!

That's not true today. There are such good products available that organic gardens don't suffer much in the transition.

Here's a story: my lawn. I mentioned that I live on a postage stamp urban lot. When we bought our house, the builder had razed all the trees and topsoil off the whole lot. All that was left was a couple of inches of very heavy clay--the kind of stuff you can make a coffee cup from, right in your hand, and then drink out of it without baking it or anything. (LOL.) Under that two inches was hardpan. On a hill. With very serious runoff. We leveled and filled the back with some nice sandy loam, and anything will grow out there. We barely even bother to fertilize. But we couldn't regrade the front, and it has always been a gardener's nightmare. Still is, in many ways. Nothing with roots wants to grow out there.

We did everything in the world to get grass to grow on that. The first couple of years, we tried the usual suburban high nitrogen fertilizers and herbicides. Nada. Then we went organic, so we spread all kinds of compost and high-quality topsoil. Still nothing. We aerated. We pulled weeds. We top-dressed some more. We sprayed fish emulsion and liquid seaweed every month. We threw out corn gluten. We tried Milorganite, Gardenville, and every organic fertilizer available at the time. At one point we even swallowed the expense and top-dressed the whole lot with earthworm castings. Things would flush up green, but it didn't last long. Nothing grew.

It was really embarrassing! All our neighbors had these gorgeous, lush lawns. We were breaking our backs, and they weren't doing much. They'd come over and say, "Now honey, if you'd just spread out some 30-0-0 and a little pre-emergent... I like {fill in the blank}..." Didn't seem to phase them to mention that we had already tried all of that!

Finally, after several years, we had improved the soil enough that we had about 4-5 inches of good topsoil. It was still scraggly, but it started growing. But still just a little. So we kept looking.

Two years ago, we tried a new organic fertilizer formulated especially for our area. It worked! FINALLY. By then we had grass in shade, so it struggled for that reason. But we had grass that was actually growing and trying to spread. So we pruned back the trees to let in more light. After all these years--in 2007--we really have a LAWN.

YEAH! :)

Just told you that story to let you know that eventually it all does work out. It's not usually so hard. It doesn't take most people 17 years to grow grass! LOL! But in the end, my grass is truly healthy, and when the stress times come (for us in August), it continues to look good, while those 30-0-0 high-growth lawns suffer. It is so worth it to find the right products for your area, and then be patient and stick it out. Your gardens will be healthier, and you will like gardening a whole lot more.