Seeking ID

Hello all!
I'm pretty new to davesgarden and to gardening in general. I'm beginning to understand that ID'ing a Japanese Maple might be difficult, but perhaps someone here could offer some insight on this tree.

The pictures I have are of the leaves only. The tree belongs to my neighbor. He has no idea what it is as it was there when he moved in. It is a young tree and upright. Right now it reaches 7 feet. It easily grew a foot this year. He has it in full sun. The spring foliage is an extremely bright pink-red. The summer foliage has now settled down to a purple-orange-red. The difference between this red-leafed tree and the other trees on my street is that this one has more orange than purple so that it hardly looks like it has purple at all. It is gorgeous. I often find myself staring at it through a window. I don't remember seeing a JM that can compete with the red of this tree. The sun shines through it and it glows like fire. I would love to have it in my backyard so I can stare at it with abandon. ;) From what I've read, it sounds like a Fireglow. The nurseries I've visited don't have it in stock so I can't compare.

What do you think?

This is it under light. Although my light is more orange, you can get a feel for the brilliance I see in this tree throughout the day.

Beautiful, that would attract my eye too! Can't help the ID, but it could be Fireglow as I've seen them locally and in the sunlight they certainly do glow.

Laura.

That's encouraging, thanks! I just took the cutting to a nursery and they suggested it could be an Emperor, Oshio-Beni, Fireglow, and oops, forgot the other. :> With fall foliage they'll be able to narrow it further. They did, in fact, have a Fireglow in stock. It's leaf shape was similar, but not its color. Theirs was in shade and looked green/purple. They said my tree probably has lighter leaves because of lack of fertilizer and excess sun exposure. I'm not sure what to do with that information. Does that mean that the brilliant color of my neighbor's tree is due to stress? They said the leaves may be burning, but the tree looks healthy and the color is consistent.

Small amendment: Neighbor's tree is about 8ft

I think it might be Oshio-Beni.

Otis

At the nursery, they had a huge Oshio-Beni planted in the ground. Beautiful tree. Its leaves looked dainty (more like neighbor's tree) while their Fireglow had leaves of variable size. Hmm.

Last picture (taken at noon). My husband and I were both surprised at how orange the leaves were when he got the cutting. As you see, the tree glows red. One of the first things he did when he got back was swear he got it from the correct tree.

I don't think that particular tree is a fireglow as the leaves are a bit different in shape, however, the color should be quite similar to that. However, I think there are a couple of forms of fireglow and I only have one of the two. Having said that, I too think the leaf shape looks more like that of oshio beni. Iijima sunago can also look like this at times, but I think it usually has less red tones and tends to lean more towards the oranges even in spring.

Sunlight plays a big role in how these colors hold up in summer, especially these trees that have the red and yellow pigmentation rather than the red/purple pigmentation. Usually you see the best red colors when there is some shade in the hot part of the afternoon, but you will get very little color in full shade (I know this for sure as I have grown bloodgood and others indoors under a lamp after grafting that showed no red coloration at all). The yellow tones, however, can come out big time in full sun due to stress. Sango kaku for example usually becomes very yellow before burning up in the hot sun during times when they should be a good even green.

Lack of fertilizer also has an effect on this as adding some food will bring out more green and cause the color to become more of a bronze.

Nandina domestica is a perfect example of this. If grown in complete shade they are almost always green, but when placed in sun the stress brings out these magnificent colors. Nandina is a very tough plant surviving even the worst conditions; japanese maples are not.

Interesting summary of JM color theory Matt. Most of my maples burn a little in the summer though and they've been out there a lot of years. What is the risk to the tree of being in too much sun if the leaves only slightly burn?

mattlwfowler: It's interesting that you say that about the different forms of Fireglow. The lady at the nursery chose a leaf from her Fireglow for comparison. The fingers of the leaf were much longer than the one of my clipping (the leaf, itself, was much larger as well). But she chose another leaf on the same Fireglow and it matched up perfectly to mine. So there seems to be a lot of variance even within the same tree.

Thank you all for your help! I was hoping to put that red JM in a full sun location, but I don't want to make it miserable. I, initially, wanted to put a shirasawanum aureum in that spot, but then I read they were persnickety and probably wouldn't like the full sun either. (Still, if I had a spot for one, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it!) I had my heart set on a bright, colorful tree since I often look out on that area throughout the day. What would be a better option? The tree would have plenty of space as long as its canopy doesn't exceed 30 ft in diameter.

Doss, there is very little risk as far as I know about tip and edge burning. When the entire leaf burns (which happens to several of my trees in full sun), you start to worry about things a bit more. Not only is it very ugly, but it usually seems to stunt the growth all the way into the next spring. I haven't studied the affects of severe burning enough to say for sure that this is the case, but it would seem logical since the plant is using energy to put out growth and it expects some photosynthesis in return.

The fireglow would probably be ok there even if it is stressed a little. You might keep an eye on your neighbor's tree to see if it burns, and if not too bad give it a try. I wouldn't recommend getting too small of a tree since the rootball will not be sufficient in that much sun even if watered daily. I would suggest going for at least a 5 gal can. Acer shirasawanum Autumn Moon would be a better option in your area, but it still couldn't take full sun.

I grow Suminagashi and Sherwood Flame in full sun and you are north of me. Both are trees that will be about 20 feet tall. Also Tsumagaki can grow in full sun here.

I did not mean to imply that the neighbor's tree was a Fireglow because it had a matching leaf. :) My clipping was of the largest leaves of the tree and only the smallest leaves of the Fireglow were comparable. I suspect your initial id of Oshio-Beni was correct.

Mattlwfowler: I'll keep an eye on it. My neighbor isn't watering it as he's renovating and has other things on his mind. So that's another factor to consider.

Doss, I'm thrilled you mentioned Tsumagaki because it was on my primary list of maples to consider. I'll have to put it back on the list!

I'm not sure if I've seen these trees in person. I know, at least, I saw an 'Autumn Moon', though I don't think it was in very good shape. As far as the others, I don't remember seeing their names on tags, but then I wasn't looking for them.

Is it unreasonable to ask for a picture of a tree from a remote nursery before actually buying it (especially since I'm seeking a large tree)?

Many etailers will jpeg you some wont...If you have someone there you trust and have dealt with then it's ok to not have a jpeg ...if not and you are paying $$ for a larger tree they should supply or I'd look elsewhere ( it IS unreasonable though to ask for a jpeg on a 1 year 25$ graft IMHO)
What etailer are you dealing with I can probabaly tell you if they do or don't since i have dealt with about all of them ;>) David

Sherwood Flame and Suminagashi will keep their red color through the summer while Tsumagaki will turn green by the middle of the summer. Tsumagaki will turn a beautiful deep orange color by the middle of June though. Just so you know.... They are all beautiful trees.

myersphcf: Very kind of you :> Once I've narrowed my choices, I'll let you know.

doss: Oh, I believe you. I'm in love with JMs. I keep trying to think up spots to put more trees! If I didn't intend to have a little flower garden as well, I'd have all sorts of trees. Darn flowers need their sun and space. :P

The picture is of the tree I have. It's at least 17 yrs old. It's a deep purple from above and shines gold/green/red from below. Gorgeous tree. We are also planning on putting an Osakazuki in the front. (And probably a dwarf somewhere - I am still scheming!) With those two in mind, I wanted to get a JM with a completely different color.

My expectations tricked me. I went to the nurseries hoping to find trees with the sort of bright coloration I read they had. I completely overlooked JMs that are dark green or purple. I certainly wouldn't have found that dark green/purple Fireglow. Even a knowledgeable nursery employee couldn't find it. The second time, the lady who is in charge of the JMs was there and showed it to me right away. It's hard to choose a tree based on pictures of how they're supposed to look like. But now that I have some understanding of how variable coloring can be, I'll go back to the nurseries and check out their inventory again.

I forgot to welcome you to DG too! Yes, when the trees are in the shade it's hard to tell what the coloring will be when they are in some sun. Osakazuki is a beautiful tree. How fun to be able to have the room to put some JMs in your yard. Lovely tree in the photo too.

Thank you doss :) And thanks everyone for the responses and help!

I go visit the maple section in the nursery through all the seasons and take photos of what I like, including the tag so that I can identify it later. That way, I can compare them through the seasons and look back for what I want.

Laura

Great idea!

Just remember that if the nursery keeps them in the shade and you are going to give them more sun, the colors will be different.