Basic Zinnias 101

Although I've grown zinnias in our backyard garden for many years now, I have to admit I don't really know as much about them as I'd like. I'm trying to learn a little bit more about the basic terminology and types (and less interested, at the moment, about how to grow them as I seem to have that sort of figured out). So if you will bear with me, may I ask a few basic questions? (And, by the way, if this is all covered somewhere in a previous thread please direct me to it so I don't waste everybody's time with this thread). Thanks.

The zinnia in the photograph from our backyard is, if the packet and catalog where we got the seeds is correct, a "zinnia elegans Benary's Giant Orange" From what I can gather:

zinnia = genus
elegans = species (and there are, of course, others such as haageana)
Benary's Giant Orange = cultivar (and there are MANY more of these, of various colors and types)

The one in the photo is a "double", correct, because it has a double row of petals compared to a "single" which has a single row? (Truth be told, it looks like more than two rows of petals on my zinnia, but what the heck do I know??)

So here's another basic question: Does each specific zinnia cultivar produce one and only one type of bloom, i.e. single or double? In other words, should every Benary's Giant Orange in my garden be a double? Or are zinnia cultivars more flexible than that, i.e. some singles, some doubles, anything goes?

Thanks in advance for any help here,
BDale

Here's another basic question.

I've seen the term "Pom Pom" zinnia quite a bit. Does the term "Pom Pom" refer to a specific shape (something other than a single or double), a specific size (i.e. miniature), or something altogether different?

Interesting thread, BD, even though there has been a lot of discussion about zinnias there is always more to digest it seems. Just for the record I googled and came up with links for a few basic websites about zinnias, info on how to grow them, some history and the big hybridizers websites. Most of this has been covered or posted before, but maybe it will be of use to somebody who is just dropping in.

The BBG did a nice little article introducing the various types of zinnias and their uses in the garden: http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/plants/2000su_zinnia.html

And backyardnature has a nice diagram and explanation of the different parts of the zinnia flower:

http://www.backyardnature.net/fl_zinni.htm

More history and info on how to grow zinnias http://www.ngb.org/gardening/fact_sheets/fact_details.cfm?factID=8

Benary's website with lots of the zinnias they have developed including Oklahoma (a pompon style), Benary Giants and Zinnitas: http://www.benary.com/index.cfm/addin/plants/startid/166/search/1.html

Goldsmith's another big zinnia hybridizer: http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.goldsmithseeds.com/images/ind_head1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.goldsmithseeds.com/professional.asp&h=252&w=307&sz=47&hl=en&start=27&um=1&tbnid=qRgw4xJeJQitrM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=117&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGoldsmith%2BSeeds%26start%3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

I think if you read the hybridizer's descriptions of each zinnia you will know what the optimum zinnia flower for that variety should look like. I think that growing conditions affect how many petals or rows of petals are on a flower, but there is always the 'ideal' representative of that cultivar. That is one reason why people enter their blooms in flower shows and there are judges to make judgments, I guess.

I hope some of this info helps with the understanding of that lovely summer flower, the zinnia. It is so pretty and they are doing so much to improve its qualities, I think.

Tabasco, you're amazing!! Cincinnati's own version of "Wikipedia" and "Google" all wrapped up in one :) Thanks so much for the great links. I will read them carefully and see if I can figure out more of the basics.

Not to belabor the point, but to reiterate a line of argument I started on the previous thread, it seems to me that zinnias have not gotten the same amount of attention as some other garden plants when it comes to specific varieties, cultivars, what have you. I know YOU know a lot about them as do many others on this forum I'm sure but even a moderately experienced gardener such as myself is still in the dark about some of the finer points of these flowers. Again, the seed sources you linked in the previous thread were more specific about cultivar than many of the catalogs and websites I'd been consulting, but I still think many gardeners (and even many seed suppliers) kind of settle for "well, here's a nice bunch of yellow zinnias, very pretty for your garden" without more of the detail and background information about the specific cultivar that you would expect when ordering a packet of tomato seeds or a gladiola corm or some kind of squash or cucumber. Maybe the Rodney Dangerfield "I don't get no respect" sort of syndrome? I agree with you that zinnias are a truly lovely summer flower and I always think they add so much to our garden and our cut flower arrangements.

Thanks again for the help!
BDale

Well, I have seen mention in a couple of links that the zinnia is a 'cottage' flower or a 'country' flower and one site even called it the 'poor man's' flower. I think part of the beauty of the zinnia and some of the other backdoor flowers is its utter simplicity, ready availability of the seed, and ease to germinate. Anyone can do it (sort of!). It's not a sophisticated or complicated flower and that is its beauty and attraction.

I think many (truly sophisticated and very high-brow and traditional) gardeners would find zinnias too gaudy and traffic-stopping for a complex garden scheme. And the colors are very garish to some eyes--there is a whole chapter in one of my gardening books about the evils of 'magenta' in the garden, a color in every blend of zinnias, I think! So some of that attitude may impact the lack of detail in zinnia literature, too!

Although the zinnia is native to Mexico and the southwest United States, it took Zinns and Benary, two europeans, to give it roots, so to speak, in the gardens of America. Sometimes, I guess, we don't know what is in our own backyards. And that ignorance is common though, with many of our American natives: the natives/natural landscape design movement so popular now in the States was instigated and popularized by another european, Piet Oudolf. And typically the Brit and European hybridizers come on plant hunting expeditions to the States. (Right now they are marketing and working on the Golden Rod cultivars).

About the seed catalog descriptions, I think it is common to write the descriptions of many flowers to attract the widest range of consumer/gardener. Particularly here in the states, where gardening is not a passion common to a large percentage of the literate population and the common landowner doesn't spend hours perusing catalogs. If the catalog makers and seedsmen want to sell their seeds, they can't make it seem too difficult or confusing. It is only the 'obsessed' (like me and maybe you(?)) who want all the details and explanations on a simple flower like the zinnia and appreciate a careful and critical write-up (and who spend hours googling esoteric sites for all the details!)

In any case, I am happy to share the info. FYI I am a newbie with zinnias and other garden flowers too. I have only been flower gardening seriously for a few years, but I find it intoxicating. Hence this (too) long explanation!

Good luck with your zinnia garden. Perhaps Maineman and others with experience can fill you in more on all your questions. t.

BDale,

Over in the Purple Zinnia thread, suggested sources of zinnia seeds were Stokes, Parks, Seedman, Harris, and Pinetree. I think that list should also include Burpee Seeds: http://www.burpee.com/category/annual+flowers/zinnias.do

Johnny's Selected Seeds is also a source for certain zinnias, including separate colors of Benary's Giants. http://www.johnnyseeds.com/catalog/subcategory.aspx?category=58&subcategory=135

MM

BDale, To further elaborate, or at least agree with what I think are your personal observations --

Yes, I think there can be singles and doubles on the same plant. This would be a bad plant and should be pulled from your garden, especially if you are saving seed -- but who is going to do that? The Benary's are a premium seed in that they are usually more expensive, and those especially should be more uniform...uniformity, BTW is one of the key companents to what hybridizers are looking for (and it probably says this in one of the links Tabasco sent) The big money for these seed companies surely has to be the mass plantings you see in front of office parks or malls...surely not the home grower. Their main goal is to have a perfectly uniform mass planting, so uniformilty is the utmost...at least from 20 feet away. No whites in the middle of the blue ageratum and no 14" flowers it the middle of the 10"ones. But a double mixed in with singles isn't the end of the world. The big money for Zinnias would be the cut flower market -- either market growers or bigger commercial enterprises....all these are guesses, but say they're true. Does a cut flower grower CARE if the flowers are double with a few singles thrown in? Doubtful. And certainly not if the cost of culling marginal parents were thrown into the equation.

Yes, Anything goes, primarily because it is a seed grown plant. Seed grown plants are variable, and you can look to your own siblings or your children for verification that the hybrid offspring between 2 parents can vary widely.

Yes, Zinnias have gotten the short shrift, but that is probably their own fault because of the mildew problem they have in August (throughout most of the eastern half of the country, anyway). I've had mildew so bad that I've had to rip out huge (for my garden) areas of zinnias, only to have bare ground from Aug- Frost.

Yes, Zinnias use the same terminology as a lot of other flowers, specifically mums and dahlias...a single is a single row of petals, a double is anything more. Pom pons are little flowers that are usually round, almost like a ball, But a ball is a bigger pom pon :) Anemone or Scabious form has a pillow of petals, petaloides or staminoides in the center with simple single or double row of guard petals around the outside. Cactus has spikes. But then there are other forms with a squared off tip called "Ruffles". Next might be incurved cactus -- looks a little like "bed head". They there would (or could) be rolled or quilled petals -- rolled would be how you roll your tongue, quilled is tighter and comes to a sharp point. Kinda makes you wonder how you made it this far in life without knowing this stuff doesn't it? LOL!

WHY the seed catalogs don't expound of the differences between the plants' habits and flowers more than they do is a total mystery to me!
Maybe they're afraid to. I don't see why they can't say: a plant whose virtues include mildew resistance, smallish flowers, long stems for cutting and early maturation or has long stems, larger flowers in a broader color range (omitting that it gets powdery mildew.)

Seems to me there could be a place for both.

Suzy

This message was edited Jul 25, 2007 6:39 AM

Thanks MM. I've ordered (vegetable) seeds regularly from Johnny's and occasionally from Burpees, and put a "thumbs up" review of Johnny's in the Garden Watchdog. It seemed to me (maybe just my hazy memory) that Johnny's was another one of those seed catalogs/webs that put a lot more specific detail into the vegetables (page after page of photos and details on particular tomato and pepper varieties) and less into their zinnias, but I'll take another look for sure.

Tabasco, you are correct. I tend to be "obsessed" with some aspects of gardening and I'm interested in knowing more about different varieties and cultivars. LOL. I've humiliated my teenage kids on occasion by asking the local vendor what kind of sweet corn she is selling (met with the shrugged shoulders and the "I don't know, it is corn" response) which I realize places me in the oddball minority status in American culture :) Mostly I'm just interested in learning a bit more about one of my favorite hobbies.

I enjoyed the Brooklyn Botanical Garden article you posted. Even this author, who seems to like zinnias, made one of those slight put-down comments about zinnias. After describing most of the common contemporary varieties of zinnias (Benary Giants, for example) she called them "Dolly Parton" blooms which I don't think was intended as a compliment. (Later she is forced to admit that the butterflies seem to like the "Dolly Parton" varieties a little better than the more subtle, refined varieties she prefers but I don't know how true that is. I liked your photo with the butterfly on the zinnia).

In that article she identifies "Bluepoint" as a variety of zinnia. I have a packet of seeds which says Benary Giant -- Bluepoint Formula Mix. So is Bluepoint actually a different variety (as the article suggests) or is it some kind of strain of Benary Giants (as in tomatoes, the Brandywine -- Sudduth Strain). Yeah, I know. Relax, they are "just zinnias." But I'm kind of curious. :)

The article also makes a distinction between single, double, and "semi double" flower types. Anybody got a definition of "semi double"? And I'm also still trying to figure out "Pom Pom". Thanks.

Hi Suzy,

We must have posted at the same time!

BDale

Suzy,

Your explanation of flower type is VERY helpful. Thanks so much!!

Here's a photo of the classic "single" type, correct? (A "Whirlygig," probably a little long in the tooth by the time this photo was taken, soon to be placed in a vase).

So, same packet of seeds, same variety/cultivar? ("Whirlygig") but a different color combination and a different flower formation. I take it this is a "double" because anything more than a single but not a pom pom/ball or a cactus constitutes a double (although still not clear about "semi double")? Maybe this was a "Whirlygig" mix, although I wonder if you could get only the Red w/Pink center color combination of Whirlygig, or if it is impossible to get these plants to breed that true?

Mind you, I'm not complaining here. I love the different color combinations and varieties, but just doing a little "back to basic" learning if possible. Thank you.

Oh, I forgot about semis -- yes, the whirlygig would probably be a semi double, but I'm not sure where semi double starts and double begins...is it 2 rows of petals? Three? Less than 1/3 the height of the flower? (Yes, I'm serious, some of the flowers are divided that way) I'm not sure, but I think semi double would be it without further research.

I don't know anything about the Whirlygig at all -- red & white and yellow & red? in the same pack? Is that right? How awful sounding -- I'm surprised they can sell any! Zowie sounds a lot like it, but only yellow & red from my memory. Skimper, I think it was, had a photo of a red & white one...and Al knows a lot about all the various Zinnias. There are a lot of people on here who know all about those, plus the brown & yellow ones like Old Mexico and Chippendale, so I'll leave it to them. (I only know about general flower shapes, rudimentary genetics, and very basic "stuff".)

Suzy

MM,

You're right. I went to Johnny's website and many more zinnia varieties than I had recalled, especially in single color Benary Giants and Profusion.

"State Fair" and "Oklahoma" (what, no "South Pacific" or "Sound of Music") only come in mixes. I cannot tell (from the catalog copy) if this is a mix of individual "State Fair" (or "Oklahoma") colors or if "State Fair" (or "Oklahoma") IS the mix, i.e. a "State Fair mix" means you get colors X, Y, and Z and with an "Oklahoma mix" you get colors Q, R, and S?

Let's say there is a red "State Fair" and a red "Oklahoma" and a red "Benary's Giant" all growing in the same field. (I know, this sounds like the beginning of a joke, "Three zinnias walk into a bar...) Anyway, I wonder if a zinnia expert could make the distinction? This is the "State Fair" over here, and that is the "Oklahoma" over there or if they are so hopelessly mixed and matched, some single, some double, some pom pom, etc., that nobody can really tell the difference on these guys?

Suzy,

You are a whole heck of a lot more knowledgeable about this stuff than I am, and I really appreciate your clear, careful explanation. I'm sure I sound like I need the "Zinnias for Dummies" book series (probably do) but I've just never focused on these flowers before and finding the basic information about them was a little harder than I expected. Your help is appreciated :)
BDale

You know I tried Chippendale and Old Mexico last year for some of the rustic colored ones and although they weren't bad, I just decided I didn't prefer those colors in zinnias. Actually I have some rudbeckia with those same colors and prefer solid colored flowers in those - but that's just me.
Bdale - I don't really have much technical information for you, because zinnias are annuals it does allow me to try 7 or 8 new ones every year so I do have opinions and observations.
I do prefer all the flowers in a cultivar to all have the same form. Here is a shot of Lavender Gem that has singles and doubles. The doubles are nice and I wish they all were.

sp - yikes

This message was edited Jul 25, 2007 6:45 AM

Al, I always learn so much from your comments and always look forward to your great photos.

Since you are one of the most respected Dahlia growers at DG, Al, let me ask you this. Do you know what they mean when they refer to a zinnia with a "dahlia"-type bloom? For example, in your photo in the above post would the lavender zinnia at about the 6 o'clock position in the photo (slightly covering the yellow zinnia) be an example of a "dahlia" bloom or just the standard (but highly attractive) "double"?

Aren't you folks glad you have me around to ask all these elementary questions? I guess I live by Abraham Lincoln's famous quote: "Keep silent and be thought a fool. Speak, and remove all doubt" (Maybe applies to "posts" as well)? Thanks.
BDale

Hi, again, BD and zinnia-philes,

This thread has really had a lot of posts since I signed off last night! Who knew zinnias were so interesting? I have a bit more from my zinnia notes to add in, if you can stand it:

BD--Please don't get twisted knickers about the nice BBG article on zinnias. The author, Claire Hagen Dole, is a butterfly gardener, not a zinnia hybridizer and his writing is pretty straight forward and he may have glossed over some of the fine points of zinnia terminology. Nice article though, and I've had many monarchs visiting my 'benary giants' this week.

'Oklahoma' is a zinnia hybridized by Ernst Benary especially for cut flowers . It is a pompon style. http://www.benary.com/index.cfm/addin/plants/startid/166/artnr/Y1950.html
Oklahoma is available in separate colors from a few suppliers.

'State Fair' is one of the first, if not the first autotetraploid (? from my notes) cultivar zinnia almost exclusively offered in a mix that has largely been replaced by more modern offerings. I can't recall who hybridized it (I think Burpee Co.) or much more about it right now...

I have heard 'blue point' called a 'premium strain' of 'benary giants' especially nice ones meant for the cut flower trade. And, yes, they appear to be working feverishly to reduce the summer mildew and disease in zinnias. The 'Benary Giant' was a breakthrough on this and W. Atlee Burpee was instrumental in mildew resistance on others, too, and thus made the zinnia much more attractive to everyone in the states some years ago.

And don't forget the power of fashion and fads, even in flower gardening and flower arrangements-- flowers go in and out of style (along with clothes) and some of this buzz is created by the big hort companies, of course, (for instance the sunflower fad, a few years ago) for the flowers like the zinnia that they are hybridizing. The zinnia is on the ascent of the popularity curve, so I would look for more coverage and better explanations of it in the next few years.

I have not grown enough zinnias to really know, but after researching I would venture about your joke--if the zinnias in the garden were F-1, then I believe, yes, the experts would be able to tell the differences quite easily. Goldsmiths, Burpee, Benary and two Japanese companies, Takii and Sakaro (sp?) are the big zinnia hybridizers, past and present.

According to one article in a commercial horticulture magazine most big hybridizers (Goldsmith's, Burpee/Ball, Benary) and seed companies (Jelitto) create product and produce for the 'plug' (tiny plants in trays) green material market. So commercial hybridizers are looking to produce hort products that are consistent in form and color, fulfil expectations, no mildew and good disease resistance, are economical to grow--low fertilizer, more flowers per square foot of growing space-- have a long bloom life in the garden, a long vase life, small plant with lots of flowers, etc. It's not much about 'looks' and 'charm' really.

Maybe not especially high on the commercial priority list is the 'charm' of the flower or the subtlety of it, because this won't sell to the landscaping industry. Home gardeners' benefits and special needs for our gardens are last on their priority list, if appearing at all on it. We get the fall-out from the big guys. I guess I didn't really realize this before.

I was thinking about your earlier comparison of the passion for the zinnia to the passion for the tomato last night. Of course, following on, there is so much interest in hybridizing the different tomato varieties because of the needs of the ketchup and canned tomato producers and of course, everyone likes a tomato in their salad or sandwich. So there is huge commercial interest in hybridizing (for instance the 'square tomato' that will fit in a crate) and the home gardener gets some of the benefit of having all those labs working on good tomato crosses, etc. (Heintz catsup, Penn State and Burpee, all together in Pennsylvania, no coincidence, I bet) Again, they are not necessarily working on what the lowly homemaker would like, but it all creates a 'buzz' about the tomato. W. Atlee Burpee came up with the 'Big Boy' which is in the parentage of many of the popular tomatoes available today.

Anyway, hort commerce is what I think drives the markets and choices for the home gardener. (The 'state fair' zinnia has been superceded by better tetras and so it's not worth trying to separate out the 'State Fair' colors. Hort commerce has moved on...thus state fair is still available in a 'mix' for heritage gardeners, but not worth more effort. (My guess))

Your musings about the different z. 'mixes' and 'blends' and if they are proprietary concoctions or something made from nature or a cultivar that is so variable that it can't be pinned down to color and form is interesting. I think if MM and others don't know, we would have to have a rep from a big seed company like Jelittos or Burpee explain how and who comes up with the 'mixes' and blends and if they are simply decorative, like the 'Cool Crayon Colors' offered by Renee's or if they are cultivar mixes like the Whirlygigs may be.

I wish we had a seed company rep who would chime in on some of this. Maybe I'll call Burpee and ask.

So the above is a re-cap of some of my googling and thinking about these perplexing zinnies. Now I have to get going -- Lots of my zinnias are beginning to bloom and I am rogue-ing out all the inferiors! (Just kidding. Everyone one of my zinnias is special to me--even the ones fraught with mildew!) Sorry I went on so long....nothing like beating a dead horse!

Happy gardening today.

Hey tabasco, awesome post! I'm learning a lot here.

Actually I like the Brooklyn Botanical Garden article quite a bit. It was almost as good as the article I hope YOU will write, tabasco! I had to chuckle when the author (inadvertently, I'm sure) made the butterflies sound a little superficial as they were fawning over the "Dolly Parton" blooms while kind of ignoring some of the other varieties. That's okay. I'm sure Z. haageana has a great personality, got much better grades in school, and now has a very lucrative job, so there!! In all seriousness, I've really enjoyed watching the butterflies hover around our zinnia patch this summer and I would grow them for that pleasure if for no other reason.

BDale

Bdale - yes that is the dahlia shaped one. In dahliaspeak they would be formal decorative.

Tab - when you call Burpee let them know I am available for sponsorship ;)

It would be great if we had some representatives from some of the big seed companies chiming in here. I'll bet they could provide some choice tidbits. Zinnias had a "heyday" back in the 60's and 70's and then declined until about the late 90's and now seem to be making a comeback.

From that 60's and 70's heyday, does anyone remember the Luther Burbank strain of pastel colored cactus flowered zinnias? Or the Zenith F1 giants from W. Atlee Burpee? Or the now-extinct Howard's Crested cultivar? Would I ever like to get my hands on some of those!

MM

BDale,

Yes, anybody who has grown the Zinnias you named could tell them apart from 20 yards or 1 yard. They could even tell the variety by the silhouette of either the plant or the flower. I could list out the differences for you, if you want.

If you parted your hair on the other side, we could still tell it's you -- that's what the single flower when it should be double or semi is like.

Tabsaco, I am stil on the Benary's site LOL! It will be a while before I can get through all the links. Are you a speed reader or somthing?

One thing that makes me mad that Tabasco was talking about is the Burpee catalog that doesn't really mention powdery mildew resistance for its varieties. Grrrr.

Suzy

Hi Suzy :)

It sounds like you are willing to put some money on the table, to do sort of the "Coke" versus "Pepsi" challenge only instead it is the "Giant Benary" versus "State Fair" (or something) LOL.

I have no doubt that you could distinguish any and all zinnia varieties, as you say, from 20 yards, or 1 yard, or via silhouette, or blindfolded, or with one arm tied behind your back. You are an experienced and discerning gardener. I ain't takin' that bet, no way, no how!! I'm less convinced that "anybody who has grown them" could do it, but then again maybe you are right and it is so darned obvious that anybody with more sense than a goose will be able to see these distinctions right off. Now I do feel kind of stupid for asking such obvious questions. No doubt there are some petal shapes, foliage patterns, or specific color hues that are a dead giveaway for experienced zinnia growers. I'll just have to grow more different varieties and start paying more attention to them I guess.

Anyway, thanks for your patience in trying to explain the basics to a novice :) I've been learning a lot from the various responses posted here.

BDale.

Naw, I just happen to know the 3 you asked about and 2 others...I do not know anything about the new ones from Burpee or the Magelland VS Dreamland.

I htink I said most knowledgeable growers could walk into a field of those three and pick them out from 20 years away, or 1 yard away BECAUSE they are very distinct in the size of the flower alone, but also, the size of the flower relative to the plant, the number of petals, and the length of petals, and the "droop" of the petals -- the starchiness, so to speak, and if you saw them side by side, you could do it yourself. Really, you could.

YMMV, But here is my informal take on them. Some of them I grew years ago, some more recently.

Oklahoma has gorgeous compressed blossoms, with a high dome, with a lot of petals that are sort of scrunched up and packed together to make room for more petals...a very formal flower, it could possibly be a ball; too bad the plant is about 4 feet tall and the flowers are only an inch big. (Or so it seems) Also, the flowers rot if you get too much rain or overhead water too much. I'm sure if you face Oklahoma down with another plant in front or something, it would look better. I don't know, I just love the flowers, I just wish they were about 3x bigger or the plant were half as big, or something.

State Fair is loosey-goosey. Doubles, semis, Singles, tall, medium tall, but all big flowers that have a lot of space between the petals both sideways and up and down -- loosey goosey. The stems are long, but not necessarily straight. The whole thing flops easily and the backs of the petals are noticeably brown. As if they received no paint and varnish like the tops of the petals. And it comes in a lot of colors...not just the big 7. I had tan and peach. It is prone to mildew -- that's the one I had to pull out.

Benary's (and this is my 1st year with it, so I might be generalizing too much based on too little experience) appears to be a strong plant with large double flowers that are very full, but are sort of flat on top, not domed at all. It has more petals, and more compacted petals than State Fair, but nowhere near Oklahoma's. Not sure about mildew yet, but based on the size of the flowers which seems to be inversely proportional to the mildew resistance, I am expecting the worst. LOL! This one has very long, straight stems, and they go every which way if you don't pinch it when it's small. Mine looks like a Y right now -- none too attractive. I'm sure the was definitely bred for the cut flower market.

There is one more called Cut & Come Again which seems to be just a (significantly) smaller flowered State Fair, but with much better mildew resistance (I say that because I had better luck with it, no scientific records or anything). Mine had an even wider color range of rose, tan, peach, pink, plus magenta, purple, scarlet, yellow and white and cream...lot of colors. And a LOT of flowers. It really was cut and come again..It also came into flower every quickly, but once again, was that related to the weather that one year or what?

State Fair and Oklahoma and Benary's Mix *should* all be formula mixes, which means they have a formula and all packs should roughly contain that basic formula +- a big margin unless it specifically says "formula mix", but still....basically the formula the seed house is trying to attain. When you buy from a retailer that's what you'll get. The basic formula might be 20% pink, 20% purple, 20% scarlet plus 10% white, red, orange, and yellow....or whatever.

When you buy the 10c seed packs, you might also be able to get State Fair mix, but it might not be getting the formula mix -- and therefore your flowers might be 40% pink 40% purple and one yellow...something like that. Leftovers in other words. It is State Fair, but not the formula mix from the grower. OR the grower isn't a top notch one and had a surplus of a color or two, or a crop failure of a color or two... or more. I'm not saying always, just that I suspect it, because it happened to me, except that I never sowed the whole package, so I don't know for sure. Maybe mine was just a fluke.

Here's a pic of Liliput...the whole package. Lots of that "sort of mauve"...a color I cannot stand, but also a LOT of foliage. I realize these just started blooming, but I am thinking they will not be covered with flowers. LOL.

Tabasco,

"'State Fair' is one of the first, if not the first autotetraploid (? from my notes) cultivar zinnia almost exclusively offered in a mix that has largely been replaced by more modern offerings. I can't recall who hybridized it (I think Burpee Co.) or much more about it right now..."

Although autotetraploid zinnias were created experimentally in the 1930s, the first commercial cultivar was State Fair, which was released by Ferry Morse in the 1950s. It wasn't "hybridized" as such, but was created by treating selected zinnia strains with colchicine. Burpee carried State Fair in their catalog (as did several seed companies), and then independently created Burpee's Big Tetra Mix as an improvement, also by the use of colchicine on selected strains, and also with hybridization not specifically involved. To date, all of the autotetraploid zinnia cultivars are open pollinated.

I have been toying with the idea of creating triploid zinnia F1 hybrids, by selecting "good" examples of tetraploids and crossing them with "good" strains of diploids. The "advantage" of triploids is that they can't set viable seeds, so they don't "go to seed" and lose vigor by doing so. The disadvantage is that you can't save seed from them, any more than you can save seed from a seedless watermelon or from a banana (both of which are also triploids).

You could double the chromosomes of the triploids to produce fertile hexaploid zinnias, but that would be a whole different project. And, since tetraploid zinnias have several disadvantages (as well as advantages), it's not obvious that hexaploid zinnias would be an improvement over diploid zinnias. When I think of crossing hexaploid zinnias with diploid zinnias, my brain begins to hurt. That cross might produce viable tetraploids of a whole new type. I wonder.

I also considered making hybrids between various selected tetraploid selections, producing F1 tetraploid zinnias. I haven't ruled out either project yet, but last year's experiments producing triploid hybrids were kind of a failure. As my females, I picked a couple of white Benary's giant specimens that had big on-type flowers and apparently no pollen production, and pollinated them with pollen from a variety of selected State Fair specimens of various colors. The idea was that the hybrids would be non-white and perhaps have a noticeably different flower form, and be triploids.

When I got an excellent yield of viable seed on those two flowers, I was a bit amazed at how "easy" it was to create triploid seeds. I have a dozen or so of those "triploid" zinnias in bloom now, and it appears that they are bee-pollinated F1 hybrids with some of my poorer diploid specimens in last year's patch. I had depended on the close packing of the petals on the dahlia flowered Benary's Giants and their lack of pollen to keep bees from being a factor, but apparently that didn't work.

I am impressed that Benary's Giants have potential for inclusion in my diploid zinnia breeding program. Some of my bogus triploids are interesting, with some lousy flowers on very stout plants. The jury is still out on whether the triploid project would be a good idea.

I am starting to use fabric netting more and more to keep bees from interfering and to keep birds from eating my prize hand-pollinated seeds. Birds have done that recently. And, Tab, I'm not kidding, I am starting to fill my dedicated zinnia compost pile with inferior specimens that otherwise would merely supply inferior pollen to the bees. Live and learn. As an amateur zinnia breeder, I have to be a little "hard hearted".

MM

Suzy,

Many thanks!! You have provided the clearest, most detailed descriptions of these different zinnia types that I've yet found since I started my recent effort to educate myself about them. That is what I was looking for and I see now why you say the differences should be clear to somebody looking at these plants in comparison. Catalog descriptions don't provide these kinds of details or adjectives that help one make the kind of finer distinctions that you have spelled out. Starting to make much more sense to me.

Growing up as a farm boy I spent a lot of time working with livestock and poultry where, of course, breeding a certain specimen based on an "ideal type" is quite common. I don't know if you are familiar with this but poultry growers, for example, work with something called the "Standard of Perfection": a book with extensive photos and descriptions of each breed and variety of chicken, duck, goose, turkey and so forth. All APA judges and exhibitors have a copy, and it tells you exactly what the desired weight, color, body shape, markings, comb shape, and so on are for each breed so you know what the ideal Rhode Island Red or White Leghorn or Buff Orpington is supposed to look like. Your specific, detailed descriptions of the zinnia shapes and petal structures and so forth are very much in line with this kind of thing. Even if (in the case of poultry) many of the "real world" specimens fall short in some respect (right shape, wrong color, real close but not exactly) all involved have some basic idea of what they are looking for when they are comparing the real with the ideal. (I'm guessing dog shows with the American Kennel Club operate in similar fashion).

Maine Man's fascinating project sounds consistent with this approach as well. Even if, MM, you are doing some experimenting with breeding and you aren't sure what the outcome of any particular cross-pollination will be, you are starting with what you consider "ideal types" of certain strains of zinnias, right? And, I assume based on your comments, you are hoping or expecting them to breed "true" in the best of all worlds: you will have a plot of zinnias that are consistent with one another in size, shape, color, and other key characteristics? Thus the care you are taking to prevent the birds and the bees from doing their own unintended mixing and matching.

This ongoing education about zinnias is very helpful and interesting to me. Thanks.
BDale

BDale, thanks for your comments. Yes, this is a very interesting thread and I am learning loads from it, too. There is a lot of knowlege here on Dave's and maybe we should all collaborate on a book!? (BTW (small nudge), I hope everyone --al, skimper, illoquin-- posts their full plant photos on plant files and detailed comments

http://davesgarden.com/pf/adv_search.php?searcher%5Bcommon%5D=zinnia&searcher%5Bfamily%5D=&searcher%5Bgenus%5D=&searcher%5Bspecies%5D=&searcher%5Bcultivar%5D=&searcher%5Bhybridizer%5D=&search_prefs%5Bblank_cultivar%5D=&search_prefs%5Bsort_by%5D=rating&images_prefs=both&Search=Search .)

About your most recent comments on the zinnia/poultry/dog breeding: Most would agree many flowers are held to similar corresponding stated standards. That's what all the daffodil (ask Illoquin about this one), rose, lily, dahlia, and daylily societies study and promote. I don't think there is a zinnia society, so the big commercial introducers/growers for the most part drive the selection process for the 'ideal' zinnia-- (and I think they are looking for the most stable landscape useable zinnia, not the most charming or the most lovely with good mildew resistance and flower garden 'presence'.

It was interesting to read your post, MM, on what hybridizing goals you are working toward. Your description is much like what I've read and learned (mostly about daylilies)-- the hybridizers state a goal--say, I want to produce a 'black daylily with long bloom season' and then take the hybridizing, culling out, pairing up steps to get there. Basically just like poultry, too, I think. (Of which I know nothing about, again, of course!) MM, do you agree?

In some of the links I posted the commercial seed growers give explicit details on each flower and even make some direct comparisons of similar types, just as Illoquin did for Oklahoma, etc. which is very useful to me--I can't devote that much space in my border to such a little flower with so much foliage--(important info to know, but seldom expressed in any catlog descriptions or pictures. For that kind of information, you usually have to go to the hybridizers/growers' analyses written for the commercial trade catalogs. (I found them hidden in pdf. files for wholesale buyers) or read the threads on Dave's Garden!

I will call Park's and Burpee this week and ask about Zinnias and ask them to read this thread. They say right on the websites that they have horticultural specialists on site to answer questions.

I will also call Renee Shepherd who knows a lot about seed choices for the home garden. Renee is offering some interesting benary's giant zinnia mixes (like 'Berry Basket'* Zinnias) that are unique to her catalog. *'Berry Basket' has lots of that 'mauve' color that Illoquin hates (but I have all over my garden!) http://www.reneesgarden.com/seeds/seeds-hm/flowersT.htm

I will be in California next week in the zinnia growing areas and may well stop in to see some fields and ask a few questions. (My sister there knows some of the growers a bit. Bodger is in San Diego/LA) And I will recommend Al and MM for sponsorships! Anybody else? ;-)

Must go out and do some rogue-ing. Some really icky zinnia colors are beginning to bloom in my Benary's Giant MIx.

Tabasco, those are terrific ideas! And, I agree, some of the experienced gardeners on this forum -- MM, Suzy, Al, many others -- can literally "write the book" on this topic. I eagerly await further updates.

In the meantime, on the horticulture and poultry connection: according to the company history on the website (linked earlier in this thread by MM) this is how Burpee got his start in the business. There a still some folks making that linkage today as well, especially the heirloom vegetables and poultry: http://www.sandhillpreservation.com/

BDale,

"Maine Man's fascinating project sounds consistent with this approach as well. Even if, MM, you are doing some experimenting with breeding and you aren't sure what the outcome of any particular cross-pollination will be, you are starting with what you consider "ideal types" of certain strains of zinnias, right?"

Right. I have some specific ideal types in mind, and some types that I want to avoid. In flower form, I don't want flowers that send their petals mostly straight out and above the plane of the flower, and unfortunately a lot of zinnias do that very thing, so they are candidates for being pulled up. The pull-ups go to the compost pile. Here is an example of that flower form that I want to avoid.

MM

BDale,

I prefer that the petals go up, out, and down. The idea is that they occupy a somewhat spherical area, and not just the upper part of a sphere, as the flower above was doing. Here is an example of a zinnia whose petals go up, out, and down. I consider that to be more of an ideal flower form.

MM

BDale,

Zinnias are capable of having their petals go downward to an increasing degree, as in this example.

MM

BDale,

It's a matter of personal taste just how much you want the petals to hang down. This example might have a little too much lower flower form.

MM

MM

Excellent. Those photos and explanations are crystal clear. It is your contention, I take it, that these are inborn genetic traits and not related to the condition of the flower (i.e. "droopiness" as the bloom goes from fresh to faded)? If so, I imagine you need to identify your ideal specimens in their prime (and mark them somehow?) in order to keep track of the best form as they undergo change in the bloom cycle until they reach the stage where seed collection is possible.

Thanks for the update,
BDale

Tabasco:I just checked out Renees garden site.That berry basket is stunning.I haven"t checked out renees site in a long time.I also like the decor zinnia.I was trying to figure out what colors of zinnias they use to make these nice mixes.Eye candy for the eyes!This can give you ideas what colors look nice together as a mix.

MM-

I agree with your ideas on form - -I *hate* it when the petals go up like that. I sure like the flower in your example..the orange cactus? Somebody in another forum said the cactus forms don't last as long as cut flowers. (?) Do you think that's true?

Skimper, Don't you love Renee's seeds???? I love how she describes them, and I love the packages. I want every pack she sells! (But I don't love her prices and the skimpy quantity she has in each package.) Oh well,

Suzy

Hello:Suzy.I like how she descibes the zinnias.I checked out Johnny's seeds.The meteror zinnia looks nice.
So many varieties of zinnias,it is addictive.LOL!I will have to pass this one up at this time.I will have to finish place my order with pinetree seeds this week.

BDale,

"It is your contention, I take it, that these are inborn genetic traits and not related to the condition of the flower (i.e. "droopiness" as the bloom goes from fresh to faded)? If so, I imagine you need to identify your ideal specimens in their prime (and mark them somehow?) in order to keep track of the best form as they undergo change in the bloom cycle until they reach the stage where seed collection is possible."

I do mark the "breeders" with an alphanumerical code that is described in a journal. Many of them get a protective net as well, to keep the bees off. You are right that some environmental factors can contribute to the flower form, and I try to take that into account. For example, apparently a serious aphid infection can lead to droopy petals. None of the zinnias in the pictures above had any noticeable aphids, however.

But this year I had one specimen with droopy petals that had a serious aphid infection and later blooms without the aphids (lady bugs and their larva showed up in numbers) didn't have that petal form, so I think it was likely that aphids did influence that petal form. I eliminated that zinnia as a breeder based on a possible proclivity to aphids and because its petal form wasn't "reproducible".

MM

Suzy,

"Somebody in another forum said the cactus forms don't last as long as cut flowers. (?) Do you think that's true?"

I kind of doubt it, but I don't know for sure. I know it is important to strip the leaves from that part of the stem that will be under water, because the leaves will start to rot pretty fast. And there are things, including special commercial products, that you can add to the water in the vase to make the zinnia flowers last longer.

I also like Renee's descriptions, although her description of the Raggedy Anne zinnias on the seed packet (not on the online catalog) was a little too promising, in my opinion. "These giant flowering cactus zinnias have jolly 4-5 inch flower faces with curved and twisted narrow petals like quilled chrysanthemums." When I grew them I was hoping to see a more "quilled chrysanthemum" look, and I was a bit disappointed. One of my flower form objectives is spider flowered flowers like some chrysanthemums. I want to create a spider flowered strain of zinnias, like some asters and chrysanthemums have. I haven't achieved that yet.

I think some of the best descriptions appear in the catalog and website of Park's Seeds. I don't know if they are written by Karen Park Jennings, but they are very descriptive, informative, complete and reasonably accurate, in my view.

MM

[edited for spelling]

This message was edited Aug 14, 2007 3:43 PM

OK, zinnia-maniacs--

I did what I said I would do and called Renee Shepherd's seeds about the tall Zinnias they offer. I spoke with a very helpful woman who was very patient with me as I grilled her on her tall zinnia mixes and how they were made up.

Here is a summary of what Sarah from Renee's said :

Most of Renee's mixes, for instance 'Berry Basket', are a custom mix designed by Renee. For 'Berry Basket' for instance, Renee trialled each zinnia in their gardens and composed the mix of various colors from the trial and determined the percentage of each hue in the mix. To create a mix such as Berry Basket, or Hot Crayon, or Cool Crayon, they may buy one color seed from one supplier, or all the different kinds of color seed from one supplier, or use several suppliers to compose the designer mix. She also said, for example, that their 'Scarlet Flame' zinnia was a separate zinnia, distinct from any of the mixes, and it was specially trialled in their gardens.

Renee's sources their seed from all over the world, from small producers in CA to Europe. They use extra premium sources and they are very selective. She said that she could not say without checking into other research whether the zinnias in the mixes were Benary's--but they were probably another zinnia of similar heritage genetics that was available through their exclusive sources.

Also she added for our benefit that Renee's will be offering two new tall zinnias for next year: "Polar Bear", a pure white, and 'Apricot Blush' and also container mix called 'Pixie Sunshine' which is another designer zinnia mix composed by Renee. Sarah told me that Renee's offers another short zinnia mix that is not a designer mix and is seen in other catalogs.

I asked her if 'Polar Bear' was, say, the same as 'White Wedding' or 'Purity' offeded by other seed catalogs, and she said that she did not believe so but that she can't account for nor control their seed growers' sales to other seed distributors.

I also called Park's Seeds and asked about their tall Zinnia Mixes. The customer service rep recommended that I speak with the Horticulturalist who was there but on another line. So then she gave me his e-mail and I have just sent him my questions in e-mail form so no answer yet.

I also called Burpee. The rep there was not helpful, said she had no idea what I was talking about, had never heard of 'Benary's Giants' and zinnia hybrids and that the horticulturalists were in the field and not able to answer questions. She referred me to my county extension agent 'who had lots of master gardeners to answer these questions'. She was not helpful at all.

I will continue my Zinnia inquiries as time allows. It's a rather interesting survey and gives a bit of insight into the quality of the seed companies, too!

So far Renee's was most impressive.

Hey Tabasco, good detective work!

Very interesting responses (e.g. Burpee's "What is a Benary Giant?" and call your county agent). Sad.

The response from Renee's (which does sound a lot more helpful in every respect) reinforces my belief that even the Zinnia seed suppliers aren't too caught up in specific varieties or cultivars. It sounds like they are careful (e.g. using trials and selecting Zinnias that meet their criteria) but are somewhat fast and loose with specific cultivars. (Is "Polar Bear" the same as some other major white Zinnias was a very good question, and I'm not exactly convinced by the response you got although it sounds like an honest and constructive one).

This is sort of like calling the American Kennel Club and asking for information about breeders of Irish Setters and being told "well, we've got a lot of big, beautiful dogs with a lot of fur and some of them are reddish in color but I'm not really sure what kind they are." I'm not trying to be critical, just noting the difference in emphasis on being able to identify specific breeds, types, cultivars, what have you.

Nice job, Tabasco, and I'll look forward to any further responses you get.