Large project, which would you put down first?

I have a 1600 sq foot project that needs to be amended. (99.44% sand/gravel)
The Plan: Lasagna composting in place, with a load of loam (cut with compost cuz that's how it comes).

I am making arrangements to have the following brought to the site:
- the local landscaping guys drop 20 yds of grass clippings on the site- will need to be spread out.
- I have to go to the grocery store to procure some cardboard to offset the greens
- I have to make the call to have the loam guy drop off 15 yards of loam, which is cut with compost (instead of the usual sand...this works for me!)

I'm not entirely sure which should be laid first...quick thoughts on this? The grass clippings will arrive in 5-7 yd loads over the next 3 or 4 days, and I personally am picking up the cardboard and calling the loam guy for a delivery time.

Oh, and I also have to figure out when it's going to rain...there's no water at the site to wet this stuff down.

My personal thoughts were:

Cardboard first.
Grass clippings to hold the cardboard down.
Loam/Compost mixture on top.
Reason: Rain issue. If it's layered as noted, the rain will seep down through the loam/grass to the cardboard. Cardboard will (hopefully) encourage wormies to take up residence in the space.

Good plan, bad plan?

I would go with that plan, but I sure would make sure that the cardboard has cuts, for drainage, or maybe the compost "power" would wash off.Mike

Sounds like a good plan but I would reverse the cardboard to be closer to the top. It does not break down quickly. I would put some type of soil amendment as the first layer. I did close to the same thing in my yard. I have 450' of ugly fence line that I am attempting to grow a 'living fence' over. Here's what I did, and it's working well:

1. llama pellets is the first layer. If you do not have access to llama pellets, use alfalfa pellets. They too are nitrogen rich and are fairly inexpensive. You can find them at the feed store. Don't overdo it as they will swell when wet.

2. More browns like the grass clippings, shredded leaves and the like

3. Shredded office paper and newspaper

4. Finally the cardboard, then

5. I then top-dressed the whole lot with straw and keep it watered well. Straw is also cheap and you can usually find it at the feed store where you got the alfalfa pellets.

Good luck, hope this helps. (I have no experience with loam so cannot speak to that amendment.)

I have never had to deal with sandy soil. I have to wonder about the loam. I have to assume that it contains a certain percentage of sand. You already have a lot of sand so does it make sense to pay money for more sand? Would you be better off purchasing pure compost?

What is currently growing in this location...grass, shrubs, weeds, trees? When do you plan on planting? Do you plan to till? I generally like the idea of no-till but I also think that tilling is a good way to incorporate organic material into a new bed.

- Brent

hi Brent-
The loam (around here, anyway...not sure, but it sounds like the practices in other parts of the country are somewhat questionable)...is a great deep, dark, rich soil. Usually, companies cut the loam with sand to make it a little fluffier. This particular place cuts with compost. There is very little sand in there. It's a good mix.

Currently growing: Weeds, a bunch of Yews, and a small tree (unsure what it is at the moment). And a few forsythias. Tilling is not an option, as it has been discovered that there is more rocks-gravel than anything under there. (As well as some 'debris' that we're certain that if we dig more, we'll find more). So...I'd rather go 'up' at this point, and create a new layer altogether.

I have decided to put the cardboard down first, using it both as a carbon offset for the grass clippings, as well as a weed barrier. Grass clippings next, and then the loam. Since very little of the area will have new plantings before fall, I will add some dead leaves to the mix later on, as well as another layer of as much compost as I can get (the city also sponsors a compost day, and there's supposed to be one end of Sept/beg of Oct.) I may top it off with a layer of pine needles for mulch for the winter, simply to keep the moisture in.

Will try to remember to post on progress in the spring.

Cardboard, and newspapers is a good sourse of "worm" food, and they will be attracted, and be able to work in that situation.Good choice.Also, that is what you want to keep moist.I did this two years ago, and have a fine bed for what ever I decide, however the trees that were suffering from the run off have perked up, and are growing much more shade than was there, so I'm in the middle of decissions as to what now to plant.
My layering was (1)newspapers,(2)cardboard, (3) compost,(4)miss.yard trash leaves, etc.(5)then covered everything with wood chips that was avalable from county recycleing.Good luck

I did know that about the wormies, but wondering if they really will come to this horrible site, even with the amendments? Their presence would be most welcome, but I don't know if they'd even want to reside there.

One definition of loam is "Soil composed of a mixture of sand, clay, silt, and organic matter.", so it is likely that what you are purchasing does have some percentage of sand (probably 30 to 40%, though the supplier could apply the term loam to just about anything). If you are not tilling it into the soil, you probably want a certain percentage of sand anyway. You might want to ask the supplier what is in the loam. Their standard loam may or may not contain organic matter (you are adding compost to your mix).

- Brent

http://www.permaculture-magazine.co.uk/articles/archive/article_15a.html

this is John Walker's classic article in Peraculture Magazine, when he faced the same dilemmas you are facing now. Cardboard first? Or what?

I didn't have any 'super-charged chicken manure' lying around :(
Cardboard went first. But I see the benefits. I wonder if alfalpha pellets would have served the same purpose...but I didn't have those, either, and wasn't planning on using the budget for them.

I think Ill use alfalfa pellets under the cardboard on my next project.
They cost $9.00 for a 50 lb bag at the local coop. And you don't need to use that many because they swell up.

Good worm filled compost will work on the bottom, and have a start.Mike

Mike: I wonder if it would be worth getting some bait shop worms to start in a compost layer under the cardboard? Ive always heard that the cardboard would attract worms, but if they don't get the message then the whole process is slowed down.

Gloria, on those alfalfa pellets, try a small area first and see how it does, they tend to attract flies. Not sure if that would be avoided by the lazagna layers but I'd start small.

Gymgirl swears by used coffee grounds for attracting worms. Two five-gallon buckets-full mixed in, or layered maybe. I tried to find the post where either she or someone else talks about just buying small bait shop worms and going to Starbucks for coffeee grounds but could not locate it.

MaryMcP: Thanks. Ive seen those posts by Gymgirl, also. Ill have to search for them. There are a few ideas that just seem to be lynch pins to success. I don't have coffee grounds, but there is a restaurant across the street. Never thought of asking for them.

I would assume that bait shop worms would be fine, especialy if they are "esinia fotedia"(SP?), or in my language, red wigglers.I don't know that much about the reproduction of the hybreads, but if they multiply like the wiggerlers, fine.I started out aquireing worms while digging, and putting them in the compost, now I have a small worm farm.If you could see what this soil looked like 25 years ago, and what it looks like now, you would know it is worth your Wt. in worms.Mike