Leucothoe question

Last year I planted a purple-foliage cultivar of leucothoe fontanesiana. It established nicely, held the purple color all through winter, then was hit hard by the late April deep freeze and windstorm. It's now recovering, but the new foliage is coming in green. Any idea what might be causing this, and if there's anything I can do to encourage it to return to the original color? Thanks!

I looked into buying this plant because of the drooping blooms. I really liked the look of this plant but couldn't quite figure out a place to stick it. I'm thinking time + sun and the leaves should color up nicely.

OK, Lauren, now I'm confused; I'd been told and read that leucothoe prefers mostly shade. I have this one in a spot where it only gets a couple hours of sun a day, at best; if you've heard otherwise, maybe it's not getting enough (?). Oh well, I'm happy the plant is recovering and putting out new growth; the new foliage is a very interesting color, very dark green with maybe a hint of purple in some lights, but not the clear purple it was last year. Will be fascinating to watch it develop; just wish I understood...

Even when a plant is in a woodland setting, chances are pretty good it's getting somewhere around 40% sun or dappled shade. I don't grow this plant but wanted to grow it really bad so I did some poking around. I've got dappled to full shade here and full sun but no eastern exposures left. Whatever I read left me with the impression the plant needed a nice eastern exposure with morning sun to color up. I believe I also ran into some hardiness issues.

I guess what this plant has is southeastern exposure; it gets sun when the sun first rises, and then a bit again as the sun gets low in the afternoon/evening. I had read that it's subject to spotting on the foliage if leaves stay wet, and this was true during monsoon season last year, but it recovered quickly when things dried out. The arching sprays of foliage are really lovely, and the drooping blooms, though subtle, are very nice. I really worked with improving its soil before I planted, because I'd read that it insists on good drainage. Don't know how it would do in your zone 5, but think it's native to these parts, so hardiness here shouldn't be an issue if it's sited well. What the h.., you should try it; you have so much land and so many microclimates, I'm sure you can find a spot that would make it happy. Lazy S's has several varieties/cultivars, and are quite inexpensive; everything I've gotten from them has been in great health. Any idea how it got the awful common name of doghobble???

I've ordered from Lazy S before and have had really good luck. I think I am going to have to pass on trying this because I really don't know where to put it. I really like the look of it a lot but I don't see it working over here regardless of how many microclimates I have. I haven't a clue how it picked up that common name. Doghobble is certainly a strange name though.

Well, if you find a spot for it at some future point, mine may be well enough established by then to send you a cutting. I assume you can propagate it from cuttings, anyway, but what do I know? Are you guys having a dry spring/summer out there? This is supposed to be a rain forest, but boy is it dry this spring.

I haven't propagated this plant but chances are pretty good it could be done. I'd have to go online and see what's suggested. I like playing with cuttings and seed and I do have that new Israelian design clone machine too which I am convinced could get a rock to root. It's not practical to try to root only a few cuttings in that however it is great for say... ten of about 6 or 7 different cuttings all at once. I really love the looks of this plant but it isn't going to work for me here. After your plant establishes a little bit, you should try to root a few for yourself! Next spring, I'll set up the clone machine again. If you'd like, I could add a few cuttings from your plant but if they rooted I'd have to send them back to you. Seriously, no space for that one here.

Last week we got somewhere around 12" of rain within a few days. Not much before that and nothing since. No rainforest here!

The clone machine sounds really awesome!

I'm jealous of the 12" of rain in a few days, and jealousy of rain is a rare event here. We haven't had ANY significant rain here for almost a month. Tonight there was thunder and lightening and we got all hopeful.....rained for about ten minutes. Big fat hairy deal...

There are cons to getting that much rain all at once but then again it's better than no rain even with all the flooding in the area. Strange weather patterns we've all been having. This weekend I'm going to have to go out and deal with a whole bunch of hardwood mulch that isn't where it was before that rain.

Yeah, there are definitely cons to lots of rain at once - resetting mulch being a big one. But I really feel badly for all the plants I put in, expecting our usual spring monsoon - and nothing but dry.

Are you watering them at all?

Oh, heck yeah, they would all have croaked otherwise. But lately we're having these very typical domestic discussions: Sandie is worried about her well, I'm worried about my plants. Ain't life grand?

Women, can't live with us and you can't live without us!

Order a tanker of water from somewhere? Re-drilling a well can be very expensive and having to add a new pump can add insult to injury if you fry it out trying to water plants after the well has gone dry because it didn't get a chance to re-charge.

We lost our well to this exact type of a "typical domestic" discussion a few years ago in a drought. There I was watering my poor plants and I had a few hoses going and all the sudden no water. I went stomping around trying to figure out who shut off my water. Yes, life is grand. I will never live down running the well dry and frying the pump over plants.

We've already replaced the pump once: not because of plants, just because it was old and crummy. Having to do it again for the plants would not be well received....

Hi,
I've been watching yr discussion on the doghobble (leucothoe fontanesiana) which grows around here. We have a large expanse of it back in the woods 20-30 feet uphill from the stream above the trillium/ferns. That is the best established area of it. There are several other spots where it is -- (1)very moist/ very shady (2)slightly moist/ dappled sun to full sun (3)sometimes moist (but not dry)/used to be shaded, but full sun > 1 year (4)growing along bank of stream in well-shaded section along driveway.

When an old rotten maple tree entangled under the power line near the road next to our driveway finally had to come out last year, I was sure that the doghobble would die out quickly. Instead, that well-established patch grew gangbusters -- It got huge. Unfortunately, we were gone for a couple of months and it became over-run with brambles and poison ivy. If you need any, I have plenty to spare. The leucothoe that is.

I'm still on the uphill side of a major learning curve regarding native plants / invasive plants. It seems that every day we discover another patch of cool "somethings" (+ more Oh, No's!)

Oh, and to the watering topic, I am definitely in touch. We have a dug-well from the late 1950's (when there was a drought). I hand-carry in all of my drinking water and have a sediment filter + other filter for bath / kitchen. The cost of a well, well what can I say, not now!
So, we are conservative about watering anything. We planted a crabapple tree down near where the maple was taken out -- I sunk down two 64 ounce gatorade bottles with small holes drilled in bottom next to the rootball when it was planted. We water the tree via those bottles every day right now. They will be removed once it is established. I had heard about doing this with "milk jugs" years ago during droughts in Florida, so I figured I'd give it a try.

spartacusaby-

I missed your initial question. Our doghobble (leucothoe fontanesiana) plant along the driveway (in dappled sunlight) changes colors with the seasons. It takes on a wonderful purple hue during the winter and then changes back to green when it warms back up.

-mary

Hi, Mary-

Another voice from Hendersonville: great! We're out in the Edneyville area; are you folks in town?

The cultivar of leucothoe/doghobble I purchased was supposed to have purple foliage year-round, and did last year; but this year the new foliage is coming in a very definite dark green. Oh well, it's pretty and the plant's healthy, so I've decided to leave it alone and not worry about color. I'd be glad to have more if you have cuttings to spare: the leucothoe, that is, we have plenty of brambles and poison ivy/oak of our own, thanks (lol). Our property has some really nice features, but nothing had be done with it forever; so I have lots of space to fill and am trying to use natives as much as possible.

I know exactly what you mean about the learning curve on natives vs. invasives; just started the learning process myself last year, and have so much still to learn. And boy, do we have plenty of invasives to fight. Our immediate neighbor seems in love with a particularly nasty invasive, Tree of Heaven or ailanthus altissima; his entire property line is defined with 50-ft.+ specimens. This beast seeds like a nightmare and also spreads by root suckers, and the best part is that its roots are allelopathic, meaning they are toxic to other plants trying to grow within their root zone. The whole neighborhood is blessed with the beast, thanks to this one property. I am trying hard to kill two good-sized trees at the entrance to our driveway, and the seedlings/root sprouts come up all over the slopes I'm trying to landscape. I don't much like to use herbicides, but make an exception for ailanthus; you can have it, or you can have a garden of your choice, but not both. Anyway, enough ranting. It's great to meet a fellow gardener from the area; and if I can help with any questions or information or whatever, just let me know.

Ruth

Off topic, but I wanted to share this with you Ruth. We had an Ailanthus altissima in our back yard when we moved in 2 yrs ago. Last year, I hired a guy (and company) to cut it down. I was afraid of it re-sprouting, the roots growing more trees, whatever the thing was going to do if cut down. He ground out the stump and he went far down and wide. He had a huge blade, so it was something like 4 ft down and probably 12 ft across. I was told by others that wouldn't be enough, my tree would definitely re-sprout and then my guy would have to come back and poison my whole yard. I'm happy to report that I have absolutely no suckers at all! Of course I'm still dealing with all the seeds that thing has dropped for years, but no suckering from the tree, or the roots. We have a church behind us and of course the tree growing over there is Ailanthus. A female one. The male reside 2 doors down from us ;( So hopefully, the people next door will realize and take those trees down!

Hi,
We are getting in car to go eat, finally.
link to USDA publication which includes specific instructions for removal of various non-native invasive species, including tree of heaven.

http://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/gtr/gtr_srs062/

We were just trying to clear a path through the doghobble. In an area which has not had anyone in it for over 30 years! I now understand why they call it doghobble. I can just imagine seeing hunting dogs try to go through a thicket of it. Looks pretty, but it would certainly slow them down!

-Mary
(p.s., we have PLENTY of it to share! Some of it is purple now -- that is in area which gets only filtered sunlight.)

Ruth:
We are near the "new" Wal-Mart. Between Clear Creek Elementary and Fletcher Elementary Schools -- I drove the LakeLure/Gerton bus route for Edneyville this year (since December). We are 10-15 minutes from you at most. We have several really neat native plants around here and I am discovering new ones all the time.
Mary

Hi, terryr, good to hear from you and I'm delighted to hear that your ailanthus hasn't resprouted. Have to admit I'm a bit surprised; I've gone to dig out "seedlings" that are 25' or more from the trees at our entrance, only to find they're attached to a root. Those babies send roots far and wide, unfortunately through a large part of the area I'm trying to plant. I have that USDA material, Mary, thanks, plus info from a variety of other sources. Last fall I tried using the hack & squirt method, spraying undiluted BrushBGone concentrate into fresh cuts, on the two trees at our entrance. Seem to have killed the smaller of the two; it has not leafed out at all this year. The larger, however, came back; will have to tackle that again this fall, and probably for the forseeable future. Meanwhile, I just keep tackling sprouts and seedlings as they appear.... not happily.

Mary, I know exactly where the "new" WalMart is, and we are quite close: we should meet and talk gardening at some point, if you're amenable. I envy you a property where you can discover existing natives. Other than an old flame azalea and hydrangea tree that had been neglected for years, this place had virtually no native plantings. The good news is that gives you a clean slate, if you discount ailanthus and weeds/poison vines; the bad news is that progress is measured by millimeters. And we'd love to share your wealth of leucothoe, anytime. We're trying to gradually reduce/eliminate lawn, and from your description of it, the leucothoe could be a contender.

Hi spartacusaby, I have lots of those little seedlings, but they pull up easily, so I know they've just sprouted from the bazillions of seeds that thing dropped over the years it stood. I spoke to a lady at the Wild Birds Unlimited store down in Peoria, and somehow the Ailanthus came up. She said she had one cut down 40 yrs ago and she's still dealing with the seeds. I forgot to mention that the tree guys took all the soil that had the ground up roots in it too. Left me with quite the hole back there, but we got it filled. I wasn't sure about his method, but he gave me a guarantee that it wouldn't come up from the roots. If it did, I was to call him and he'd come out for free and do whatever he needed to do to get rid of it. But there's nothing out there, I'm happy to report. Now I wonder about the Ailanthus at the house across and caddy corner that the city removed the year before. The lady that lives there had little trees all over last spring/summer. I thought they were suckers from the tree, but now I wonder if they weren't just more seeds sprouting, since that one was a female tree also.

Seedlings forty years later?? Not good news. Maybe there's another female in the neighborhood, I hope, I hope. The larger of the two trees at our driveway entrance, the one I haven't yet killed off, is of course a female and is now flowering. GRRRRR. Wonder if the flowers will fail to set seed if I spray the ones I can reach with BrushBGone? It's becoming personal between me and these trees; can you tell? Every day I walk through the planted areas, see more new sprouts from the roots, and curse a lot....

Where on earth did the tree guy drop the soil he pulled out from around your tree? To whom would you want to do that???

spartacusaby-

oooo that is scarey. Especially as the person getting the soil may have no idea what that pretty little "volunteer" tree is. Definitely a reason to checkout where any "top soil" you purchase may have come from.

After much re-reading of the USDA pub, I finally understood what the "soil seed bank" that they referred to was. The seeds in the soil itself -- Duh! I can be dense at times. Okay, so now I understand where these invasive plants can really wreak havoc.

I, admittedly, yawned through some passages in an attempt to comprehend. The publication said things like "if the soil seed bank remains intact, native plant communities may naturally reinitiate succession after eradication of nonnative plants. Light-seeded native plants are usually present in the seed bank while heavier seeded native species will gradually be deposited on a site by birds and other animals".

Even when we keep cutting them out, if the seeds have invaded the "soil seed bank" then we are in real trouble. If and area is cleared (by any means, for any reason) then they are some of the seeds that naturally sprout out of the soil.

I guess this thread has spun off-topic

Oh, but about leucothoe, one of the "new trails" we have been working on has taken us through a really old, large stand of dog-hobble (leucothoe), some over 5' tall. This doesn't happen overnight, mind you, and the stems are as big around as my thumb. This is in a section of gentle down-hill slope above our stream at the back of the property. Also goes across a "dry streambed" that is soggy most of the time -- even in this dry spell we've had this year! When my grandparent's purchased this property, they were told that there was a "spring" somewhere "back there" which we've never been able to locate. Anyhow, the dog-hobble (leucothoe) along there does get a LOT more water than I realized.
-Mary

My DH, in middle of our new "Dog-hobble Trail"
This message was edited Jun 22, 2007 8:45 AMoops, sb "soil seed bank" - had "seed soil bank"

This message was edited Jun 22, 2007 8:51 AM

Everything I've read says that the seed stays viable in the ground for up to 50 yrs. Even if I ignore that for us, yep, the church behind us and caddy corner has a nice Ailanthus growing there, female of course. The male is 2 doors down the opposite direction. I also talked to the people across the street, same side (we're on a corner lot) and they too used to have one. Their's fell in the middle of the night on their house! So the church to the south has one, going north east and across the street had one, north west and across the street same side had one and next door to them is the male. sigh. When they cut ours down, I could see how ours could fall, it was rot on the inside. You know those nozzles on the BrushBGone you hook up to your hose go pretty far, so if the tree is on your land, why not try?

I'm not sure where he took the soil and the chipped up tree. He did say that he won't give those chips or soil to anyone, that he'd dispose of them properly. I didn't ask any more questions because he's a small town tree service who's been in business for years and he relies on word of mouth. That keeps him honest. He wouldn't stay in business otherwise, know what I mean?

Mary, aren't government publications fun? I swear all the agencies take lessons from the IRS in writing governmentalese, a language incomprehensible to the common man. Threads on DG often go off-topic, not to worry. And back to the original subject, I've not seen leucothoe grow that tall or have stems as woody as you describe: it's beautiful!

Terryr, know what you mean about small-town businesses: word of mouth would go south badly if he gifted someone with a lifetime supply of ailanthus in their load of topsoil! We, too, are surrounded by the tree of h... (heaven just isn't appropriate) thanks to the property line of huge trees next door. I would happily settle, at this point, for eliminating the seedlings and root sprouts as they appear on our property; but even that seems a Sisyphean task. Tried spraying the flowers today, at least those low enough to reach: hopefully that will prevent at least a few seedlings, but who knows? My sympathy to the folks who had one land on their house. Think the worst I read was of one popping up through the concrete floor of a garage: never underestimate the power of a determined invasive...

I felt horrible because the neighbors to our south, who don't have a tree of h (yes, you're absolutely correct!), had babies either from our tree or the tree that would be behind them in the church lot. They were all about 3 ft tall, so I chopped them all down, they were all along their foundation, and I sprayed them with the Tordon that we're using out at my parents for all the invasives they have. These trees were in amongst daylilies and lily of the valley the neighbor has, but I was ever so careful when I sprayed. The daylilies and lily of the valley are fine, the trees are no more though.

I just bent down another Morus alba. I stood on it to get it to bend over the driveway and sprayed it on a tarp. That is the second White Mulberry I have found here that was overlooked that got out of control. This one had to have been about 12' tall already. I'll wait about 2 weeks then cut it down. I just found about 20 Tree of Heavens on my property that are all about 3' tall. Once it stops raining, I'm going out with a large cardboard box to put around each one and I'm going to spray down into the box (reduces drift considerably). I'll cut those down in about 2 weeks. Tree of Heaven is a tough cookie. I didn't realize I had so many here until I started working outside again this year.

Oh good grief, Lauren: my sympathies. If those new ailanthus are 3' feet tall, keep checking a huge area around them even after you're sure they're dead: they will be back.

Terryr, where on earth can I get Tordon? It's supposed to be much more effective than the BrushBGone I'm using, but I've been told I can't buy it without a license.

I am not happy about this because we are going to be gone a lot this summer and there's no way for me to keep a watchful eye on what's going on.

I feel your pain, Lauren; I haven't been happy about this for a couple years now. Last year, in anticipation of being out of town for a while, I tried "smothering" some sprouts instead of spraying them. Took a big black pot, lined it with a trash bag to totally exclude light, put it over the sprout and weighted it down with a rock. Figured it would die if it couldn't get light, right? Wrong! That particular sprout withered, but dozens more popped up around it from root sprouts. This tree is just a beast; it needs to die, but it's darn hard to kill.

I'll get em! If not this season, the next. The M. alba that I bent over the driveway to spray is not looking all that happy. Another few days and I will feel safe cutting it down. I'll just do the same thing with the others.

For equilibrium ::::::::I've ordered from Lazy S before and have had really good luck. I think I am going to have to pass on trying this because I really don't know where to put it. I really like the look of it a lot but I don't see it working over here regardless of how many microclimates I have. I haven't a clue how it picked up that common name. Doghobble is certainly a strange name though.
It truly is a strange name but comes from dog owners who were hunting (years ago)and needed a place to tie up their dogs and this plant not only will hold a dog I think it will hold a horse if tied securely. I heard this explanation at a wildflower pilgimage in Gatlinburg , TN sometime in the 1980's. Hope this is helpful.

Hey hymenocallism I love Lazy S too. I really have had good luck with them. I have quite a few microclimates myself but I still think I'm out of luck on trying the Doghobble because of my zone no matter how much I like the look of it so I'm with you in that I don't see it working for me either. I'm just too far north. Now if it was a Childhobble plant, I might consider ripping something out of the ground in one of my warmest locations to try one ;) Neat that you knew why it had the common name of Doghobble.

Backing up a little bit to an earlier post by CutNGlass regarding seedbanks. I must have missed your post about yawning through "if the soil seed bank remains intact, native plant communities may naturally reinitiate succession after eradication of nonnative plants. Light-seeded native plants are usually present in the seed bank while heavier seeded native species will gradually be deposited on a site by birds and other animals". Let me give you an example of what they were referring to. Several years ago I removed some Crack Willow and Japanese Honeysuckle (allelopathic) from an area toward the front of my property. Last year I was walking through there picking up garbage that had blown out of our garbage can when a car hit it and I stopped dead in my tracks because I found hundreds of Smilacina stellata growing in waves where once the invasives had been forming dense monocultures. I also foun 3 Swamp Oak seedlings that would have been compliments of local squirrels that could have never germinated in the presence of JH> I was in shock. I know there were none of those plants there for the past 7 years. That means that when I removed the Crack and JH, there had been a seedbank of a highly desirable native plant material waiting to come back. Now comes the flip side of the coin with seedbanks... Garlic Mustard for example, if left to set seed, will create a seed bank that is viable for 7 years which means you really have to watch the area where you find it. And that wonderful Tree of Heaven leaves a seed bank that can last for decades.

My dad had the landscape/lawn service place here order the Tordon RTU for him . I asked my dad when he came home with a couple quarts if somebody needed a license and he told me no. I don't know that for fact, just what my dad told me. He said he thought somebody could buy it at TSC. I've never gone looking for it myself though since I can "borrow" my dads.

I just did a search and I came up with this arborist website.
http://www.arboristsite.com/archive/index.php/t-45295.html
If you go almost to the bottom, somebody on there says at one time you needed a license, but now you can buy it at tractor supply. So that goes along with what my dad said.

Tractor Supply, here I come: there's a big female ailanthus needing a get-together with Tordon. By the way, I was surprised to discover that the flower clusters I sprayed with BrushBGone have all withered and browned, along with the surrounding foliage. Wasn't expecting much, just needed to attack them, and they're higher than my loppers could reach. Hurray: a meager few less seedlings for next year.