Stages of Lunar Moth from Egg to Moth (hopefully)

Thanks Becky, you are so sweet and encouraging. Who knows, maybe they just have to shed more dramatically than butterflies :)

I think one major reason we don't see them anymore is that they pupate in leaf litter. So many people rake their litter and send it to the trash dump. I think the Lunas are all at the county compost center. Do your bit for the environment- let the leaves lay.

Maggie

Maggie - Very good point! We could do our own compost pile in an area of our yards and put the leaves on top of the pile for a couple weeks before mixing them up into the compost heap.

Oh what a depressing thought... that we are composting or trashing all those beautiful moths! I was looking at the trees off my balcony yesterday evening, and there is a sweet gum not more than 30 feet away. I am on the third floor, so I am eye level with the birds and squirrels, so to speak... and I was wondering if there were any little luna cats out there munching away on that tree....

I keep thinking Maria needs to set up a Luna cam :o) So we can watch the caterpillars through out the day from our own computers !!!

~ Cat

Thank you everyone for your support.

LOL Cat. All you would see is... munch – poop ... poop – munch … munch – munch ... poop – poop.
Sort of like that video game in the Subway commercial: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YPZsGwLGHCc

Maggie, you brought up a valid point. Just because there is sweet gum tree does not necessarily mean that there will be LM. How are your cats doing?

Hi everyone, news is still not good. Out of 12, only one is still eating. The others are decreasing in size and change from green into something brown. They are motionless for the most part and I have not seen any cocoon-spinning activity. Some even have a distinct odor (the liquidy ones).

Does anyone have any ideas about what is happening??

This picture is of a cat that clearly looks dead to me...

This one still is still his previous size, moves occasionally and clings on a leave stick...

This one still looks healthy and is the youngest at 13 days old, two days younger than the other cats in the pics.

Maria~
When you pick them up, how are you holding them? The breathing holes (spiracles) are on the sides of the cats body.. all along the side. If these get cloged they can get really sick and die.

It could be a cat virus or even something on the leaves that you can't see with the naked eye. Maria - Wash your hands thoroughly before handling that last healthy cat. The others really don't look so good. Move their containers away from the healthy cat. You don't want to spread any germs to that last cat.

I wouldn't toss the other cats yet though. Give em another day or so and see what's happening. Bads things do happen to good cats. :-/ I've lost entire batches of cats to a virus. It's so disappointing! Especially when you do everything right. I'm so sorry. Let's hope this last little fella makes it. :-)

I do hope they all pull through. Yes, it's a strange thing about cats...some make it some don't...micro bacteria and viruses we cannot see more often than not play a large part in survival of the fittess...guess that's Mother Nature's way of ensuring the best of each species makes it to procreate more healthy offspring.

Just always keep in mind only 2% of eggs a butterfly or moth lay in the wild ever make it to adulthood. Who came up with that amount, I don't know...but what I do know is that every one we raise and release means more warm fuzzies!!!

~ Cat

Thanks everyone. I have been practicing good hand washing anytime before handling the cats. In addition, I try not to touch them at all because of the risks of injury to them. Along with my instructions came a small paintbrush, which I use only when I absolutely have to. Usually, I have been moving the cats with the part of the leave that they were on into a new container with a fresh leave. I have a double supply of containers and exchange them daily; you may recall them from previous pics. The used containers are washed in tap water and dried before use the next day. The leaves are also washed in tap water and padded dry before use. And the cats have been in separate containers.

Unfortunately, they aren’t looking any better today. There is one cat, half colored green and half brown, that is actually still eating. It is about half its prior size (see pic).

I am starting to get used to the idea that this project is a failure :(

Maria - If hand-raising these LM cats are a failure, the fact that you have followed the instructions to a T ..... it does not appear to be anything you have done! It's very possible the eggs were not healthy when you received them. If there is several generations of in-breeding, the babies could've been unhealthy before they even had a chance.

But .... since most everyone here has NEVER raised them, it might be possible that they go through some interesting instar or morphing to chrysalis stages that we are not aware of. Which is why I suggested not doing anything yet with the sickly looking ones. The Tersa Spinx Moth that I raised from a cat took 3 days to morph into a chrysalis! I thought he was dead, but he was just going through the cat to chrysalis transformation. Wait and see what happens. This experience could be a total bust or it could be very successful! And you still have one healthy cat left. If you remember, I had 3 Giant Swallowtail cats. Only one has survived .... so far (one gotten eated by the larger cat and the other just died). He currently does look like he is very healthy. But .... time will tell.

Hang in there!!! Give yourself a pat on the back for at least giving it a try!!! You did good, Maria!!!

Thank you Becky. Your encouragement means a lot.

I think that the FL State Coordinator has been raising LM successfully, which could validate your suggestion of several generations of in-breeding. I sent her emails twice with pics and have not received a response yet.

Thanks again, Becky.

Maggie, how are your cats doing? Hopefully better than mine. But don't feel bad if they are not doing too well.

Maria

Yeah, I'm with Becky!
If all else, Maria....You can get another kind of cat species to raise. One that is most prevelant to your area. This would be a good come-back into the world of cat raising. Lunas are difficult to raise.. If it was easy all of us would do it, LOL! In my area Black Swallowtails came to visit and lay eggs on plants I had already been growing. That was almost 10 years ago.... so hang in there Maria. Now I have expanded to over a dozen species in my own back yard. Working my way from the most common Bflies to the "if I plant it they will come", species. :-D We learn a lot by 'doing'... I love your spirit in this Maria!
You can even try another brood of Lunas if you really have your heart in it. We will be right here behind ya!

Debnes

Thanks Debnes. Luna cats were my first ever attempt to raise anything besides plants (my other two cats came already well developed, LOL).

I appreciate your encouragement. I am lucky to have you all as garden buddies.

Maria

Kind of unrelated, but the best butterfly Pic I've EVER gotten. I'm so glad my selection of butterfly attracting and host plants is working.
Enjoy, I did.
Susan

Love the kitty Maria!!! =^..^=

This has been a learning experience for all of us. Don't give up yet...you still have a healthy luna cat...and we still don't know what is happening with the others either.

Am assuming by your first backyard photo that Luna Moths are found in your area. You now know what the eggs and various instar caterpillars look like so perhaps a scouting trip through the woods would yield eggs or cats...or look over the neighborhood trees that are their larval hosts. I've found most of the moth caterpillars I've raised when they are crawling on the sidewalks or highway on the move looking for a place to pupate :o)

~ Cat

Maria,

Not to worry , mate! Mine are doing OK. I'm not following instructions to a tee. The fading into brown with no abrupt demarcation concern me more than others although eating, drinking, peeing, pooping is a good sign of any healthy organism. I'll post pics in AM.

Maggie

Thanks for that great pic, Sanita!

Cat, the first pic in this thread was actually of the one & only LM I ever saw in my backyard. But since there is a sweet gum tree in the yard, I would hope that there are more.

Thanks for your update, Maggie. All of my cats are still in their respective “cubicles” until further notice. Thanks to you, I have an increased awareness of life below, as in leave litter and will treat that with more respect in the future.


I did have Black Swallowtail cats on my parsley last year and will be on the lockout for them this year.

Since this has been my first attempt to raise any caterpillars, in the future I think I will just watch other cats from a safe distance (for them). That brings me to the question: Which plants do you all use to attract butterflies?

Thanks again for your support and encouragement,

Maria

Oh my Maria! Lots of them!

Passionvine (check cultivars), for Heliconians and Fritillaries
Carrot family and Parsley for BSTs
Milkweed for Monarchs
Pipevine PVSTs

Just about every Bfly has a specific larval host(s). Some have 1 some have several.. Look around and see which butterflies you get most of in your area. Then work out from there.

You can go to the Butterflies and Moths of North America site and go to 'maps' ...put in your state, then your county and click 'show location'. this will bring up a list of all the Butterflies recorded in your area. On each page you will see a paragraph on 'Caterpillar hosts' .
http://www.butterfliesandmoths.org/map?ds=10&_dcs=1

Project failed miserably and no cat is left. I guess that closes this thread.

Thank you everyone for your comments/suggestions and support.

Maria

Oh Maria, that's so sad. They may have been exposed to a pesticide or something before you got them. Don't blame yourself.......you took excellent care of them. Please try again, they need all of us to help more survive.

Dear Maria,

I'm very sorry about your cats. I read back through the postings, I hadn't realized so many were not doing well. It is not a failure unless you give up, it is a learning experience.

I've not said much so far because I've not followed the instructions.I've had plenty of the smaller ones die just like yours. Recall, I got a mixed bag of cats (not eggs which have a poorer survival rate) that hatched on different days before they were sent to me. I have some that are half way to pupation and several that are still quite small- 1/2 to 3/4". If/when they hatch, breed, lay eggs, I'll send you some.

Thank you so much for pioneering this so the rest of us could learn.

Regards,

Maggie

Maria,

So sorry to hear that none of the cats survived. Am sure you did everything right and the moth that laid them had probably been exposed to a pesticide or virus and that was passed along into the ova...or that perhaps the eggs were contaminated to begin with. That happens more often than not when eggs and caterpillars come from breeders that don't properly disinfect their facilities. Sad fact is there are many backyard/garage breeders just interested in making money. Am not saying where you got the eggs from is a bad place...but sometimes even in the best situations things go wrong.

Don't be disheartened...you gave it your best and you were able to provide us with some wonderful photographs. Am sure we've all learned from your experience...so I'll be looking forward to your continued posts and other moth and butterfly life cycles photodocs.

~ Cat

Thanks, Maggie. I hope you have more luck in raising your cats. My DH has several theories, too:
1. He thinks that the holes I punched into the cups were not big enough
2. They may have been too close to an AC vent in their “overnight place”
3. I handled them too much
Well, in any case, I tried to follow the instructions … maybe too close. I received a sample cup with the eggs, stating that the two holes where the strings went through were enough.
DH could be onto something in terms of AC vent. He seems to recall that the problems started when I moved the cats into another room overnight because they would get more light in there in the morning (I like to sleep in sometimes).
The handling was limited to moving the cats into their clean cups daily and he happened to be around when I was in the process of doing that with 12+ cats.

Either way, I hope my experience did not discourage anyone from attempting to raise cats because it is like Fly Girl said, they do need all of us to help more of them to survive.

Maria

((((Thanks Everyone)))))

Cat, agree with you and do not think that the eggs came from a bad place. The lady that sent me the eggs had all the best intentions. Since the cats initially were doing fine, I think it must be something I did or did not do.

I must admit, though, that I have been wondering why you would want to keep the cats in a cup & the moths in a mesh laundry hamper. As a nurse, I wondered about their “quality of life” under those circumstances. Yes, some moths may have been set free to live for a week while the others would have been kept for “breeding” only to raise more cats in captivity. How would nature benefit from that at least in terms of the LM? I understand that butterflies and other moths may live longer and could do well once released but the Luna?

Maria

Hey Maria! I a nurse too! I keep my cats in a huge mesh pop-up from Shady Oaks. I also have several cages DH made from screen and 2X2s. Cats are kept on he cool side of the screen porch- morning sun only. There is moderate breeze.

I just pick bunches of Sweet Gum and put it in a vase, sometimes with p-towels or plastic wrap blocking the swimming hole. Frequently, I will lay the old branches over the new "bouquets in a vase" so they can move when they want. I do help
/entice/ encourage/cajole/cut the branch they're on and put it on the pile of bouquet. I wash the Sweet Gum but I shake it dry and don't remove the galls. I think the cage needs the humidity and they'll move on when they are ready.

I'm glad to help the process but Darwin has to have his say too. No sense "rescuing" them for a slow death. I will cut apart a leaf that has two or more cats on it to spread them out and decrease the stress. I know that the saddleback stage is an early stage and as such they are quite vulnerable to many issues- stress, virus, bacteria. That's where I lost most of mine and it's interesting that the saddleback is the weakest point. I saw several that seemed to rot from that point forward and back. Remember I got my cats IN VARIOUS STAGES! The hatch rate of eggs I bought from a vendor who quality checks his eggs was 5 of 12. Your mileage has varied. You will have to adapt your measures for raising cats according to the clinical picture.

Warm regards to a fellow nurse,

Maggie, NP

Sorry Maggie, that it took so long before I got a chance to respond. How exiting to have a fellow nurse on board. I am sure you are doing all the right things for your cats. As for me… I will observe from a distance.

Did you guys see that someone else has started a thread about LM cats? How exiting! I hope that DonnaB gets them to the moth stage. http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/727786/

Don't be discouraged about raising cats, Maria! Just jump right back on in there and try raising another species like the Black Swallowtail or Monarch! You would love the Monarchs. They are so friendly once released as butterflies! They will follow you all around the yard if they are hand-raised! Like a little puppy dog! :-)

((((Becky))))) Hope you are feeling better. Missed your kind words!