What I learned about dry shade gardening

I know I promised some folks I'd give them some info from my class. As I can't remember what thread that was on, I'm starting this one.

I will skip the usual instructions (define your shade) and plants (hosta, hellebores, ferns) and bring up what I found interesting:

Put down 1-3 inches of compost to start and again the next spring (side dress). This won't change the soil but will give your plants which were raised in optimal conditions (very, very, unlike under your maple tree) a chance to establish themselves.

Interesting plants: hardy cyclamen, epimedium (rubrum & grandiflorum), campanula cherry, aquilegia Canadensis, corydalis lutea, iris crestada, lysimachia puntata Alexander, anemone huphensis and anemone tomentosa Robustissima
There was also a shrub: Corylopsis spicata.

She emphasised that while plants that take a bit more light CAN be grown in the shade, plants that take more moisture won't grow in a dry area unless you water them costantly for the rest of their life.

Pamper them with compost and some watering until established and they should last with minimal care.

The teacher was Nancy Dubrulle- Clemente of Natureworks

This message was edited Mar 31, 2007 11:31 AM

But I love to water Dave. My shade would be dry since it's under the roofline. They also seemed to use sand around the foundation when it was built.
Do you have dry shade Dave?

You love to water me??
Al, yes I have dry shade (that's kinda why I went). Under trees maple & oak trees, I have a shade garden. When I started I was foolish enough to think they were in the shade so would need less water. It's been my biggest challenge and I still need to fill it in more. Lamium, liriope, hosta, aruncus (slow growing) have been my thrivers. Bleeding heart, chelome, pulmonaria have lived. And a kiwi vine I mistakenly transplanted into too much shade because I moved in fall. It's never fruited but I like it.

I am geting more bewildered or should I say scared. I went to my dictionary.com and looked up - cold-stratified. Ok try stratified on the dictionary - nothing came up. I am not trying to hit bad on anyone but, I dont even know what Dave47 is even talking about.

I am plain getting scared that I got the little GH. This is suppose to be a great place, but at this point in my little mind - I am going over the edge of ??? Extintion? Scared? I do not know what I have got myself into as a newbie. I don't know what most of you are even talking about.

I admit I am just about new to everything for growing. The GH is not going as scheduled and I am just sitting here shaking my head. I don't want to start a new post. I read - I can't kill a seedling! My kitchen is getting well over stocked and I have no place to put the germinated seeds, and the GH - won't be ready for another week. I am almost ready to shed a tear on the whole situation.

schick lady - check Glossary for definitions of gardening terms. Don't be intimidated. Just take it slow. As Dave said, if you screw up with seeds, who cares? You lost pennies. If you are stressing over gardening, it's time to step back, take a breath and re-evaluate. Gardening should relieve stress, not add to it! No one is coming to inspect your work. It's primarily for YOUR satisfaction. I don't give a hoot about impressing anyone. If people like my garden, that's nice. If they don't, who cares?

Schickenlady, if you could be more specific, people would answer questions. All I can tell is that you're woried and don't know what to do with your seedlings.

Flourescent lights can work well with seedlings. Can you put them under a couple of them in an out of the way place till you GH is ready? Can you drape some plastic (from the GH?) over a stand to make a temporary greenhouse?

What else confuses you?

I think she is overwhelmed with all the gardening information you all have. I know when I first started coming here I was like "what the heck are they talking about?"....a lot of the new vocabulary and stuff can be intimidating.

I for one am still very confused about a lot of things...that is why I ask so many questions...however everytime I have asked no one has made me feel stupid for asking and I have learned so much. I just take things one step at a time. I am MUCH more knowledgeable now than I was before I joined this group. Everyone is so helpful.

Thanks for the dry shade info, Dave.

I go by the old saying to help me feel better... "you can only achieve Master Gardener status until you've killed 1,000 plants."

I haven't killed that many YET, but I'm working on it!

Thanks for the dry shade info Dave. I've got an old maple I want to plant under this year.

Harper

Here is what I have done with my seedlings, schickenlady. My house is also becoming overwhelmed with them :-). First, I agree with Victorgardener and Dave47 - if they die - no sweat, you are out pennies. Next - somewhere I read a statement on DG that you cannot consider yourself a REAL gardener until you kill the same plant three times (boy, was that a relief to me!)

I do not have a greenhouse. I do not have grow lights or heat pads or anything fancy. I have a porch and a pick up truck (unlicenced, so it just sits on the back driveway for now).

The seedlings I really care about, I take them outside on days that are over 40 degrees. I figure this will harden them off in advance. Right now, the back of the truck has flats of baby petunias, cornflowers, coleus, sweetpeas, morning glories, and dahlias.

If it is raining - I put them on the veranda so they don't get pounded into pulp by the rain.

If the night temperatures stay above freezing, the sweetpeas stay outside. Everything else comes in at sundown.

Once the evening temperatures stay above 40 degrees -everything will stay outside.

My mom and dad raised geraniuims (not the hardy kind, the red kind - you know what I mean) in Canadian winters on a large veranda. They germinated them inside, then as soon as possible, they were outside on the covered veranda on the picnic table. My father used clamps to attach posts to each end of the picnic table and basically created a plastic tent. At night, the heavy clear plastic was pulled over the picnic table and during the day, off it came.

Every thing seemed to survive. :-)

I wonder if that 'kill the same thing three times defines a real gardener' rule extends to real husbands??!

What???? We're to kill the same husband three times????

I think you have it backwards, Seandor!

I also appreciate the "dry shade" information. I've been working on this one for years and still don't have it right. I'll work on more compost - I do water every day when the weather is hot, but even that doesn't seem to be enough.

Kay

Dry shade is really a pain. I just go with plants that do better in it. Too much work for me to try to change it. Same with wet areas. I just plant things that are better suited for a particular area's conditions.

Oh! So real husbands kill what three times?

Yes, that's the question.

I know its the question - what's the answer? LOL

Zombie plants and spouses returning to life! Oh My God! I only kill them once then replace & repeat, etc. (I'm talking of plants of course)

Hmmm my husband has nine lives - ooops sorry that is my cat LOL

Dave47...does Natureworks carry a selection of the cultivars? I'm interested in Epimedium grandiflorum. "Lilafee" looks nice. Did Nancy mention if any of the dry shade plants tolerate juglone? I have a butternut tree on the north (thankfully) side of the house.

Dave:
Good list. I can add a few that have done well at my place: Heuchera, catmint, alchemilla, begonia, dicentra (both eximia and spectabilis), perennial geranium.
You mentioned corydalis, usually a moist shade plant. Yes, it does grow in dry shade. It also self-sows all over the place!

David, Nancy is taking orders now so I think you can order things she may not have in stock later. I have no idea about the juglone. Give them a call?
Don, Is Corydalis a major pain?

Dave:
No, Corydalis is easy to pull out of my sandy soil. Just every time I look around there is another one!

schickenlady, take some deep breaths, have a cup of tea (or a glass of wine...your choice). Victor is right...this is supposed to be fun :0)

it's too bad your GH is behind schedule. you could also set your seedlings inside large corrugugated cardboard boxes outside (provides some insulation), leave them open when it's warm enough, and just close the tops when it gets too cold. as long as you don't leave them in the dark for too long. or cover the tops with clear plastic when it gets cold. the high cardboard will also protect them from the wind.

everybody loses some seedlings or has some that don't germinate. and everybody was new once. try not to stress over it.

one piece of advice, which I should learn to take myself...don't try to everything at once.

Hello Everyone, I'm on a cold windswept hill on a tidal inlet. Moss, white pine, balsam fir grow in abundance. Just how much compost can I produce to make my ground friable?! I have a lot of clay, it's hard to dig and it seems that the thin soil that I DO have is thin and over what seems like pebbles! I've had some success with daylilies, crane's bill and rhododendron. Seedlings I got from the local extension service (Scotch Pine, White Birch) have done well. I tried Rosa Rugosa but that died, piled seaweed on top of my garden (after washing it down) and that helped my soil. I guess my question is.....what flowering plants would work? Thanks and I'm pleased to meet you. Signed, MaineWindswept

Greetings, Windswept and welcome to the forum. Judging from what has succeeded and what has failed, it seems that despite the thin clay layer on top, you are basically dealing with a soil that does not hold water well. You can work in compost over time to improve that but you can stick to plants that prefer those conditions. There are plenty of drought tolerant plants that require good drainage. Lavender and most herbs. Heather and other members of the Ericaceae family - rhodos, azaleas, Kalmia, Pieris, etc. Agastache. Sedum. Euphorbia. Perovskia. There are many more! Good luck.

Victor

Wow MW that is confusing soil.
Victor would rhodies & daylilies fit that dry soil idea? Maybe check into plants that grow well in clay too. It may be a process of trial & error (which you have already begun)
I would suggest at least 3 inches of compost or other ammendments if you try to modify your soil. Good luck and welcome!

Daylilies certainly would. He / she (?) said both are already growing, so I assume that the rhodos are getting enough (windswept?) rain / moisture. While rhodos and other ericaceous plants need adequate moisture, they like good drainage as well. They probably would benefit from some more organic matter in that location though. Don't know how much is provided by the top layer of clay. Sounds like a challenging area. Glad it's not mine!

Okay I have a question for shady gardens and I mean shady. I have this long narrow strip about 15-20 feet long and only about a foot and half wide along the side of the house. Normally I would plant impatiens here...however this year I was thinking of planting some perennials but nothing big at all since I don't really want the plants to grow over the foot and a half mark. These were some of my ideas - small hostas and bugleweed. Does this sound ok? Have any other ideas for me. I don't want tall plants or anything...more or less just a filler so I don't need to keep planting annuals here....TIA

DawnLL:
Your suggestions are good. Other possibilities for deep, dry shade are ferns and small bulbs like crocus tomasinianus or scilla.

Epimedium, liriope.

Dave47 - Thank you for this thread. I would not have found it otherwise. Do you have any favorite places either on the internet or by catalog that have good/great disease resistant shade plants? Is it better to start with gallon size plants with shade or will smaller plants thrive enough to be viable this year?

Dawn - hellebore would be my choice, with European ginger, pulmonaria, sweet woodruff, lady fern, sensitive fern, Christmas fern - polystichum, Lily of the valley, erythronium, scilla and dwarf daffs like Tete-a-Tete underneath. These ferns will live on next to no water once established. And I have what I think is Mrs. Moon Pulmonaria that has spread all over some bone dry areas in the outer reaches of the yard - I do mean bone dry in summer and bad clay - also there are stands of lady fern and sensitive fern that are in bone dry areas. Sweet woodruff has taken hold in about a mm of soil under a giant maple and if it can live there it can live anywhere. Some of the species tulips do fine also in low-ish light. I planted Jane a couple years ago and it surprises me every spring by coming back and blooming in red and white stripes. Also Anemone - anenome - you know what I mean. For some reason the purple anenome have lived and other colors died - I had the same thing happen with primroses. ( does it count if you kill all but the purple plants 3 times?) Euro ginger is deceptive, it does love moisture but I had some growing in about the most inhospitable place at the top of a rock wall, completely shaded by Solomons Seal and it spread very very slowly - tho it will not seed itself very readily in a dry place. The saxifrages will also do well in shade and dry would just slow their stolon growth down. I tried a strawberry saxifrage off a sale table 2 yrs ago and it was evergreen through this past winter where we were well below zero some days. Japanese Painted Fern will stretch out and make very long fronds in low light, but can live there just fine - it stays more dense if its dry. Polypodium - wild Mayapples need moisture in spring but will live in very dry shade in the summer - they go dormant.

If you can give it some high shade or even a few minutes of direct sun daily, Carex Evergold is dynamite - might be my favorite garden plant, also Hakonechloa macra Aurea - needs a little light to really help it grow so can't be totally dark.

The Japanese Anenomes like Pamina will live in very dry spots, but will need a little light to bloom if you've got a spot around the edges.
If you decide on shrubs, clethra and itea will do ok in very low light, and so will aruncus and good old Yew. Ditto for the Rhododendron Christmas Cheer, which is a very compact small rhodo with pale pink flowers. I have a clethra where it never sees the light of day against a north wall, and it blooms every summer - has very sparse leaves in that location but still blooms. If you decide to go really really big - Viburnum rhytidophylum will grow in very low light and in light winters stay evergreen. I have 1 next to that north wall clethra and its probably 12 ft tall - blooms twice a yr right on schedule with the ones in more light. Pieris ( not the red leaved ones ) are good in total shade and they are covered in blooms right now with a northern exposure.

You can get 2" hellebore by the flat from Sunshine Gardens - I think I paid $2 each when my garden club split a flat. He uses B-12 on his seedlings and they were in great shape - very healthy w big root systems. They will bloom the following year if cared for decently. These are leftover seedlings from his work to develop a line of double flowered hellebores - you have a chance of getting the random double flowered progeny in these batches but its not guaranteed.

If you do give a really peaty moist soil with lots of compost, hellebore and european ginger will drop seeds and germinate a lot of extra plants.

A friend had one whole bed in just vinca and hellebores randomly growing through the groundcover. Lots of daffodils in spring. - it was very peaceful looking.

Another friend of mine grows both plain green and variegated comfrey in the dry shade under white pine trees. They were blooming and doing fine last spring with lots of white flowers.

Hope that gives you some ideas to play with. Dave was right about the compost to start - get your soil amended right for the plant to give them a good start and they won't need much care afterward.-

IC, You are very welcome. I don't have any special shade plants catalogues to recommend. I've used Bluestone Perennials mostly and local nurseries. Plants from bluestone are small and I think that is fine if you keep them watered in year one (which you would need to do with larger plants too.)

Dave47, Thanks for the information on a grower, I just went online and ordered a few flowers from Bluestone Perennials to attempt my hand at planting in NE.
(It sure is different from the Midwest/south, where I come from.)
Crossing my fingers that the plants do well. However, I heard on one of the threads that a real gardener sometimes has to attempt 3 times with the same plant before being successful. Being a bit of a perfectionist, I am hoping that they all flourish.

Compost and lots of watering to start. Good luck!

In very dry shade - hosta and Japanese silver painted fern planted with a lot of compost in the base of a very old wrought iron base of a garden planter.

Hosta (several), Hydrangea 'Harlequin', Heuchera 'Obsidian', a few ferns, Creeping Jenny (I think it's officially nummularia aurea), driftwood, in a garden that only gets morning sun and is not part of our irrigation system. We did use a lot of compost and add more when a plant is divided or moved.