Terry and I have been working on a list of leaf characteristics to use when adding African Violets to the plant files. So I went to Optimar's site and got a list from them and then cross referenced them with all of the leaf characteristics found in First Class 2. All of the ones listed below are found in First Class 2. Please look over them and see if you have any you would like to add or any you think we should delete.
Leaf Texture
glossy/shiny
hairy/fuzzy
pebbled
velvet
Leaf shape or type
girl foliage
holly
longifolia
ovate
plain
pointed
quilted
round
ruffled
serrated
scalloped
spooned
tailored
Leaf Color
red back/red reverse
light green
medium green
dark green
black-green
green and cream variegation
green and white variegation
green and pink variegation
green and yellow variegation
Thanks,
Jesse
New AV characteristics to PlantFiles - input please!
Can you go through the computer process of adding a new AV to the plantfiles?. I have some not listed and would like to create a file on them.
Here are some definitions of the leaf characteristics/types if you all interesed. They really helped me learn how to identify my plant leaves when adding new plants to my First Class 2.
Girl Foliage: Describes an African Violet leaf with deeply scalloped edges, i.e., the edge forms a pattern of joined arcs or semi-circles. Often has a white or light yellow spot at the base of the leaf.
Glossy/Shiny: Describes an African Violet that is shiny or glossy.
Hairy/Fuzzy: Describes an African Violet that is hairy or fuzzy in texture.
Holly: Leaf type. Also called holly-type. Describes an African Violet leaf which curls up around the edge. The curls are discontinuous, giving the leaf the appearance of a holly leaf.
Longifolia: Leaf type. Also called spider or strap. Describes a pointed African Violet leaf that is very narrow.
Ovate: Leaf type. Describes an African Violet leaf which is ovate or oval-shaped. While sometimes called spooned, an ovate leaf does not necessarily have the concave feature associated with that leaf type.
Pebbled: Describes an African Violet leaf on which the raised areas feel like tiny little pebbles.
Plain: Leaf type. Sometimes called standard or boy-type, so named for Blue Boy, the hybrid from which this leaf type was first known. Describes an African Violet leaf which has no remarkable characteristics.
Quilted: Leaf type. Describes an African Violet leaf on which the areas between the veins are raised, giving the leaf a puffy, distinctively quilted look.
Red Reverse/Red back: Leaf type. Describes an African Violet leaf which has a reddish-purple underside.
Round: Leaf type. Describes an African Violet leaf which is nearly circular in shape.
Ruffled: Leaf type. Also called curly, fluted, frilled, lacy, ruched, undulate or wavy. Describes an African Violet leaf with a ruffled edge. A tightly ruffled edge is often called curly or lacy. A loosely ruffled edge is often called undulate or wavy.
Scalloped: Leaf type. Sometimes called girl-type, so named for Blue Girl, the hybrid from which this leaf type was first developed. Describes an African Violet leaf with deeply scalloped edges, i.e., the edge forms a pattern of joined arcs or semi-circles. Often has a white or light yellow spot at the base of the leaf.
Serrated: Leaf type. Also called dentate or fringed. Describes an African Violet leaf with a serrated or saw-toothed edge.
Spooned: Leaf type. Also called cupped or cupped-up. Describes an African Violet leaf which has the characteristic of being concave, i.e., the edges turn up slightly to give the leaf a cupped or, especially on an ovate leaf, a "spooned" appearance.
Tailored: Leaf type. Describes a plain African Violet leaf on which the areas between the veins are slightly raised.
Variegated: Leaf type. An African Violet leaf which exhibits two distinct colors (i.e., green and white) or two distinct tones of the same color (i.e., green and light green).
I have added over 500 African Violets to the PlantFiles and I sure wish we would have had these new characteristics when I was adding them. Because in First Class 2, at least a couple of them, if not more, more accurately describe the different types of leaves. But at least now we will have a section where we can ID them.
Thanks,
Jesse
ByndeweedBeth,
I would be happy to help you add your plants to the plant files. But let's wait until Terry has these new characteristics added before we do so that we do not have to redo them. But as soon as they are added I will be glad to help you.
Jesse
Jesse, do you want to also include the propagation techniques?
And is there anything else about the AVs that should be specifically addressed in their PlantFiles entries?
For those of you that aren't familiar with how a PlantFiles entry looks, here's the "main" entry type, and an example that's still mostly blank so you can click on the "Unknown" links to see the choices beneath each - but don't check off anything unless you're entering the data for real): http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/115639/index.html
Now, here's an example of the special form just for Roses (also with all or mostly blank description so you can see the checkboxes): http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/145571/index.html
Here's another special form, this one is for Hostas (I made up this "Demonstration" entry) so you could see an example of a form that has a lot of leaf information: http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/156424/index.html (and yes, I'll clean up this entry after everyone's had a chance to take a peek ;o)
Terry, that would be great. I think that I already sent them to you. It would be great if we could include them.
Thanks,
Jesse
Just out of curiosity (no criticism, just admiration for your hard work), but are we reinventing the wheel??? I don't know enough to know.
That is why there are definitions to explain all of the things listed above, plus, I told others that I will teach you how to add the AVs to the PlantFiles as soon as Terry is finished adding all the new stuff. You do not have to learn to do this by yourself, I do not mind helping and I'm sure others will help too. But you can ask me anything, anytime or just dmail me.
Jesse
This message was edited Mar 15, 2007 3:30 PM
Terry,
Please let me know when you have finised adding the new things to the PlantFiles. I have a lot of AVs that I want to add. I'm not trying to rush you, I just want to know when everything is ready to add them.
Jesse
Betty, do you mean with the existing 1,000 or so entries in PlantFiles already? Or because there are other databases out there?
The current entries won't be lost - they will just need these details added to them.
Whether we're duplicating other databases....well, PlantFiles has some things going for it that not all others do:
First, it's a lot more egalitarian (for lack of a better word) than most databases, and has grown swiftly because it allows everyday gardeners to share what they know (images, comments and details).
Also, entries can be "hooked" into PlantScout for growers who want to market their plants to people who are looking for specific varieties.
Not many other databases can do that - some of the specialty databases can (Helpmefind, for one) but we've got solid database "infrastructure" in place that many smaller sites lack. (That's a pat on Dave's back ;o)
And we have "drawing power" with over a million visitors a month in our heaviest months - which means a lot more potential customers for PlantScout vendors, and a lot more recognition of photoographs and information submitted by our members.
I do thank you, Terry and jesse. That makes perfect sense for people looking for specific look, etc....thanks again....(that was my thinking....there were so many other databases)
gail
Just let me know when it is ready Terry and I will start adding new ones but also updating the ones that have already been added. Last week when I had to be in bed because of my back, my DH loaned me his laptop desk, you know the kind of things they use in the hospital to eat on, and I laid there and added a lot of AVs to the PlantFiles. I kept most of them in a list so I will know what ones to go back and edit. Just say the word Terry and I will start back adding and also updating the others.
Jesse
I don't want to rush things, but we need to hear back soon if anyone has additions, changes, corrections, or deletions to this proposal.
It's time to "speak now or hold your peace....for a long time (not but necessarily forever)!"
I'll leave this open for discussion and debate through tomorrow (Saturday, March 17, noon CDT), then we'll start the process of adding the new descriptions that are decided upon by the group.
I love all of the new proposals to added info in plant files.All the extra info will make plant files even better.Wonderful Ideas.So happy to see this moving ahead : )
Nancy
So how's it going now? I have still been adding a few but I have kept a list so I can go back and add all the details. How long before the new characteristics will be done?
Jesse
I'm leaving the matter "on the table" until tomorrow noon - then we'll proceed with making whatever changes are agreed upon ;o)
I hope you won't be disappointed in people like me who wouldn't even know how to add to the plant file.....two good reasons: have little knowledge about Av's and I am not sure if I want to learn this much....can you, Jesse, take the pics we post and somebody who knows all about the characteristics can add to plant file by using the pics we post....sounds real good to me!! (LOL)
bettygail,
I will be glad to help you in any way that I can. Do not worry about not knowing much about AVs. When I joined DG I did not know anything about plants, especially about AVs. I thought they were all alike and had no idea that there were so many different ones. It was the nice people here at DG that taught me so much and I'm willing to pass what I learned along to anyone that wants help.
Jesse
You don't want me on anything requiring organization or the computer (LOL)....wish you a lot of luck and thanks for working so hard!!!
gail
I just saw this (sorry, I know I missed the official deadline)... We tried to do something like this last year, but it dead-ended for lack of input, so I'm glad to see it going forward... Big THANK YOU to Jesse & Terry!
The leaf descriptions look good, although "girl" and "scalloped" foliage descriptions seem to be identical... are there scalloped leaves that are not girl leaves, or do we just need the "girl foliage" checkbox?
Terry, I think it's a good idea to have propagation info. I would guess that the species AVs do come true from seed, although I'm not an expert on them. Named varieties must be propatated by leaf, bloom stalk, or sucker. Chimera varieties will not come true from a leaf and must be propagated from a crown sucker (or I think a bloom stalk?). If other parts of the description make it clear that a particular AV is a named cultivar and/or a chimera, then this might not be necessary...
Are we going to add any descriptors for blooms? Color is a bit tricky since it's so subjective, but terms (with definitions -- loved the definitions for the leaf forms) like "wasp bloom" or "fantasy" or "double" might be useful.
critterologist......shame on you.....Jesse started a thread on Av's a while back working on this....you don't get to debate now (LOL)
The reason I added both scalloped and girl foliage is that is the way it is written in First Class. Sometimes they write it one way and some time the other way. I knew it was the same thing but to a newbie, they only know what they read, so that is why I added them both.
I was thinking the same thing critter, about entering data for blooms. Although I always put that information in the comments section, so I'm not sure whether we need it or not. I could write something up for that if you want me to Terry. What do you think?
Jesse
The only thing that makes me hesitate about doing a similar checkbox list for blooms is that we could end up with an intimidating number of checkboxes... I think that's what brought this to a halt the last time we took a look at it.
Gail, I may be late to this version of the discussion, but I wish everyone would please take a look at this thread to see some of the thoughts people had on this last year, http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/569561/.
Jesse, I'm sorry I missed the previous thread Gail mentioned... could you post a link to it, please?
Okay, so it looks like the AVSA uses the following for flower shapes:
Bell
Chimera
Double
Fantasy
Fringed
Edged
Multicolor
Semidouble
Single
Star
Two-tone
Wasp
Are these okay? Or do we need to go this indepth?
For foliage, they use
Compound
Girl
Holly
Longifolia
Plain
Pointed
Quilted
Ruffled
Spooned
Supreme
Variegated
Crown Variegated
Mosaic Variegated
Trying to blend the First Class and AVSA leaf informaion together, and still maintain three categories for leaves:
Leaf Texture
Glossy/shiny
hairy/fuzzy
pebbled
velvet
Leaf shape or type
Compound
Girl
Holly
Longifolia
Ovate
Round
Pointed
Quilted
Ruffled
Serrated
Spooned
Supreme
Leaf colors:
(I left out the variations on green - is it important to include those?)
Red Back
Variegated (unless you want to break these down into the various colors)
Crown Variegated
Mosaic Variegated
I think all of these sound fine Terry. I would also include the green colors, as they are important to a lot of us. I would use light green, medium green, dark green or black-green. I would also add what type of variegation, such as green with white, or cream, or pink, in whatever way you think is best. A lot of people actually buy plants because of how their leaves look. Some want a certain green and a lot try to find ones with the different variegations. If we include these, then people can look them up according to their characteristics and put those on their want list.
There are also a lot of "round" and "plain" leaves on AVs if you want to include those.
Thanks,
Jesse
Historically, we've shied away from using "green" as a leaf color - since most leaves are green, the presumption is that they're green unless you specify another color. (The blackish color is a legitimate, stand-alone color.)
In the case of AVs, I'd hazard a guess that may apply to "round" and "plain", too - it's assumed the leaves are round or plain unless you specify some other shape or texture.
I'll go with the majority on setting this up, but I wanted to make you aware of the reasoning we've applied to other plant entries.
Although the presence or absence of variegation can vary with growing conditions, the color of the variegation (when present) is consistant and can be pretty important in describing an AV -- and many people, including me, are particularly drawn to plants with certain types of variegation. Since variegation can be cream, cream and pink, just pink, etc... Would it be possible to do a second little checkbox list under "variegated" with "white/cream," "pink," and "tan?" (I think those are the terms I've seen most often to describe variegation, but Jesse may have a different suggestion, as it sounds like she's been looking through descriptions in FC trying to figure out a good approach).
I'm less inclined to include the shades of green... while there are some cultivars with notably lighter or darker leaves, I think most of them are very similar in shade... and I guess I'm not as certain that it's a valuable part of the description. I'll check some FC entries, but my impression is that shade of green is not routinely included in the description, it's more of a sometimes thing. Also, since judging light, medium, or dark green is a subjective interpretation (not everyone will be looking up the registered description when they enter a plant's characteristics), I think we could have a lot of incorrect information entered in "shade of green" checkboxes.
Oh, and with leaf shape/type... "plain" is a default characterization, but I think "round" AV leaves are fairly unusual.
I wish we could draw some more folks into this discussion....
I also think variegation is an important part to this discussion. I for one am inclined to purchase or trade for plants that have the variegation.
Looking forward to seeing this happen as I have numerous av's that I will be entering.
I agree with all of the above points and also think its important to include red back or red reverse in the leaf description.I don't know how important that is to others, but I know along with variegation that is something that really attracts me to certain AV's.I agree with Jill on the leaf "shade of green" issue because I for one have purchased av's that were stated in their descriptions as having dark leaves only to receive them and think to myself they were actually medium green and not what I would consider dark green.So Jill is very correct that leaf color is interpretated differently by different people.
Oh, yes, the red back to the leaves is definitely important to include... unlike presence/absence of variegation or leaf/blooms color, it doesn't seem to vary with growing conditions. Also, I love the "glow" that red backed foliage gives to a plant, so it's something that I look for in a description.
Okay, if I'm reading this correctly, it looks like we're getting close to a consensus on leaf color:
Leaf Color:
red back/red reverse
green and cream variegated
green and white variegated
green and pink variegated
green and yellow variegated
Are we in agreement on the leaf shapes and textures?
And what about flowers - is the AVSA list of flower shapes okay with everyone, or should it be tightened up, or expanded further?
I think the AVSA list of flower shapes is fine.
Maybe we could have a sublist of variegation patterns and colors? That night make it clear that more than one could be checked off, to account for the variegation that's pink *and* cream or pink *and* tan. There are also some that seem to have only pink variegation, and of course there are those with just tan (I think it's "tan" not "yellow") or cream/white (could these colors be combined for simplicity without losing anything?).
Leaves have
red back / red reverse
variegated foliage:
cream
pink
tan
mosaic
crown
Otherwise we end up with
Leaf Color:
red back/red reverse
green and cream variegated
green and white variegated
green and pink variegated
green and yellow (tan) variegated
green and cream and pink variegated
green and cream and white variegated
green and white and cream variegated
green and pink and tan variegated
(and we haven't even addressed the different types/patterns of variegation yet)
I'm probably missing something simple about the way PF works... If it turns out we just need a long list of single options to address the different combinations of variegation characteristics, that'll work too.
BTW, is it crown variegation that's also referred to as Tommy-Lou variegation, or it TL variegation the kind that's around the edges of the leaves? I'm afraid I never remember that term properly. At any rate, a lot of growers seem to refer to TL variegation, so maybe we could work it in somewhere.
Critter,Tommy-Lou variegation is around the edges of the leaves .
I hadn't even thought about A crown-variegated plant and mosaic variegation..Wouldn't they both be different too? Or maybe they would just fall into the above variegation descriptions?
Thanks! That's what I thought... but I know I've gotten that one mixed up before...
I think TL (around the edges of the leaves) and crown (on the central leaves only) and mosaic variegation should be included with the color info in describing variegation.... or did we drop that part at some point?
Just give me the final lists of what needs to be added. As soon as I have them, I'll get them loaded, so y'all can start having fun "retro-fitting" the current entries and creating new ones ;o)
I backed up to Terry's list of flower and leaf chacteristics above... made just a couple of additions/changes... Jesse, I know you've done a lot of work on this, and I'm not trying to take over, just trying to see if we're close to a concensus... Relying mostly on the AVSA criteria makes sense, and I'm hoping there's a way to include a link to the AVSA definitions of the various terms (or to put in the definitions as Jesse wrote them).
How do you think this looks? Does it include too many (or too few) items?
Fower Shape:
Bell
Chimera
Double
Fantasy
Fringed
Edged
Multicolor
Semidouble
Single
Star
Two-tone
Wasp
Leaf Type/Shape:
Compound
Girl / Scalloped
Holly
Longifolia
Ovate
Round
Pointed
Quilted
Ruffled
Serrated
Spooned
Supreme
(do we want to add Clackamus, aka Watermelon Veins? It's not on the AVSA list, but it's a term growers and hybridizers use.)
Leaf Texture:
Glossy/shiny
hairy/fuzzy
pebbled
velvet
Leaf Color (check all that apply):
Red Back / Red Reverse
Variegated (including Tommy-Lou variegation)
Crown Variegated
Mosaic Variegated
Variegation includes white/cream
Variegation includes tan/gold
Variegation includes pink
edited to correct a confusion on my part
This message was edited Mar 19, 2007 11:17 PM
I looked up each of the leaf characteristics in First Class, using it as a description. And many of them use the words "round" and "plain" and since they are used in First Class a lot, and that is where I get a lot of my descriptions, I would include them. However, I looked up "veined" in First Class and only found one entry with that description in the entire database. So since, out of 15,000 entries in First Class, it was only once then I would not include it.
As far as "girl foliage" is concerned, it is not at all serrated. It is scalloped. So the term serrated is a totally separate. So I would put "girl/scalloped" together and make "serrated" a totally separate item. I find "serrated" leaves all the time but "girl/scalloped" is not as common. We need to make sure we include "serrated" as a separate item.
Thanks,
Jesse
whoops, my bad -- "girl" and "scalloped" are the two I meant to suggest be combined! Thanks for catching that. I'll edit my previous post.
I only found 2 FC entries with "clackamus" in the description (another site I came across used "watermelon veined"), but I've seen it used by growers... It's a very distinctive foliage form, but uncommon enough that it's probably sufficient to include it in the written notes where applicable. I've grown 'Winnie the Pooh', and the Violet Gallery lists 3 other miniatures with clackamus foliage (only they spell it "clacamus," which together with "watermelon veined" only adds to the confusion on this term).
I have a question. In First Class, many blooms are referred to as sticktite. What exactly is that and should we add it to the different kinds of blooms. Maybe we just call it something else. Does anyone know?
Jesse
I have been adding AVs to the PlantFiles and I noticed that on most of them they specify the size. So I was wondering if we should also add the size which is very important to many people. Some people only like to collect them based on the size or type, such as a trailer. Here is what I thought of. If you all think we should add these, please add any that I've missed.
Miniature
Super miniature
Semi miniature
Standard
Large
Trailer
Editted to add another one.
Jesse
This message was edited Mar 20, 2007 2:53 AM