Reports of trouble in this forum

Recently we've received a string of complaints about problems in this forum. For those of you concerned about this forum and the problems here, I invite you to privately dmail me and give me usernames of the people that you think are causing the most problems.

It's time to take this forum back and make it peaceful again.

Thanks,
Dave

I'm not sure I understand this at all. Ken

The forum seems peaceful enough, but we get a huge amount of complaints coming to us directly. It's a strange thing, but it seems like a lot of aggression is "under the covers" and difficult to sort out. This is why I've solicited help from the members who might know all about the subtleties of the forum...

I have not noticed any aggression here other than people's own personal preferences for one tree/shrub/conifer or another. And if anyone takes these personal preferences too personally, their problems are far deeper than anything that could be addressed here.

Are you receiving these complaints from the same people, consistently? The problem could be the consistent complainers rather than the people participating in the forum? This is just a guess....

My guess too.

Scott

Actually, no. Many of the complaints have come from newer members, who can sense an undercurrent of "inside jokes" comments that make them feel uncomfortable. In some cases, the meanness has been pretty blatant. I'm sure that's not the image any of this forum's regulars want to project, but unfortunately, that's what's happening.

How odd, I can't remember a thread that has gone truly South in Months. Are they being threatened by the name game that we play, making different handles that are simular to someones handle, like Viburnum Valley could become Vibrating Vortex, Decumbant might be Debunker, Soferdig, might be Soferdog, PrairegirlZ5 could be PG3X, Equilibrium might be Eastoflibrium, stuff like that. That's just a word game and means nothing, just fun...

As a newcomer, I've really enjoyed a lot of the discussions in this forum, and I haven't noticed anything I thought was out of line. I would hope that if a thread starts to take a bad turn, the participants would turn it around.

Terry, when you get examples of blatant meanness, do you or another DG administrator give feedback to the offender? I think that a lot of us who grew up in the days before text messaging, etc, often don't realize that the written word has a different effect than spoken - even emoticons don't take the place of real human expression.
Still, though maybe I'm too thick skinned, I don't think I see the problem.

Peg

Peg, if we remove or edit a post because it violated the Acceptable Use Policy guidelines, we send an administrative warnng to the poster, telling them what we removed and why ;o)

Patrick, the nicknames may be a contributing factor, but they weren't specifically mentioned. The reports were more focused on members making snide comments and innuendos that no one outside a particular group would "get", and the net effect was of an unfriendly "edge" to the forum.

Well, not to make lite of this but:




Mars is in retrograde...



;O)

Aw, c'mon. Trouble on this forum? This is the best woody plant forum on line, and it is for me the reason I joined DG. Quite frankly, even though I am an active perennials, roses, and clematis gardener, the forums here which are oriented to those plants are, to me, mostly fairly dull and not very informative. They don't seem to have participation from really active experienced gardeners. Just my opinion, and I hope I am not chastized for it.

The woody plant people who participate here are knowledgeable, engaged, experienced. Many of them are among the best people who left GW en-masse a couple of years ago. I have never found anything to be remotely offensive. Yes, some of the threads do seem to digress into some personal discussions. There is an easy solution to that -- Don't READ those posts. That's what I do.

It would be a crying shame to lose knowledgeable people here because of a perception that the forum is "ruled by cliques". I have never found that ANY question I asked, or those I read from others, has not been respectfully answered. I don't know the nature of the complaints, but I certainly don't have any. Smart knowledgeable people tend to attract others who are so -- that's certainly why I decided to join.

It would be a crying shame to lose people for those kind of complaints.

I have not noticed anything, people have been very nice to me, answered my questions. Sorry, no bad word from me...

I agree with david5311 - it woud be a shame to lose good people because other folks don't quite catch their banter. I've really appreciated the help I've gotten here - my questions have been answered and I've learned a ton just lurking.

While I'm a new and infrequent poster--truth be told--like Peg--I lurk. I enjoy this forum very much (by far the best I've seen) and would hate to see it "managed." I think the very active folks are opinionated and vocal and their opinions and information is very much appreciated. I do sense some history between the participants--however I've also noted that posters seem able to keep things civil. I clearly don't compete at "their level" but I enjoy the high level content. I've stepped off the high dive (with a comment or two) only a couple of times and the crocodiles have been patient and cordial.

I want to compliment the regular posters. Their photographs, lists and sightings are important additions to the forum. I want you all know that I greatly appreciate the effort.

I also read this forum because of the expertise here. While there may be some "inside jokes", I've found none of them offensive, and I've never had anyone be anything other than helpful. If a thread digresses, I stop reading it. There are forums elsewhere that I have stopped reading due to disrespectfulness, but I honestly don't see that as a problem here.

I probably shouldn't comment. I enjoyed when Mike McG was editor of OG. Gosh, did he take a bashing! You had to appreciate his humor. Not everyone got it. I'm a newbie now, but won't always be. With this in mind, I'll be sure to make a special effort in making new participants feel as welcome I did when I first posted. Thanks everyone!!! You made me feel mighty special. This is one of my favorite forums. I check it daily for new posts. To the admin., I appreciate what you're doing also. I'm really glad that I joined. : )

I've also never noticed anything I considered nasty/offensive on here--sure, there are some inside jokes and bantering back and forth between people who hang out here a lot and know each other really well, but I don't feel any of that goes on at the expense of providing expertise and advice to people who need it. I've seen more cases of people getting nasty with each other on other forums than I've seen in this one and I would hate to lose some of the true tree/shrub experts over this, that would be a huge loss for DG.

To all,

I think that I've let fly with a couple of broadsides that would have been better left in the cannon. Passions can run high on both sides of a subject and it is easy to resort to other tactics than "just the facts" even if they are fairly innocuous in offline life. For me, the process for encoding a complex subject/thought into a typed sentence is hard and interpreting it can be just about as hard. I think that I've apologized appropriately where needed but if not I'll do it again. Also, there are subjects that get brought up fairly often by new people (is Callery Pear any good? or is that GW?) and the replies can be lacking on detail and longer on emotion because it's been discussed so much. Well, anyway.........I learn a lot here. The honeybee thread is a good example. Also, the what are you buying for spring is enlightening. We've great group here exercising patience (except Gen Xers....at least me ;-)) and grace with each other. Keep it up!

Best Regards,
Ernie

I too enjoy this forum. I've learned lots of valuable information re: conifers, tree pests, etc. I've even had a few good hearted funny statements in response to my questions, I personally did not feel offended, nor felt slighted nor like an outsider. It is obvious that there are many knowlegeable experts on this forum and when I feel out of my league, I relish the fact that I can receive valuable insights without reading a thesis.

And some of the people here have known each other for quite a while (years) - online. As David said, there was a mass exodus from GW a couple of years ago and most of those people moved here.

As has been said before, what is written in the forums can be taken in as many different ways as there are people who are reading the words that were written. Since there is no tone-of-voice, facial expressions (smiles, etc) the words are open to interpretation by anyone and everyone who is reading them. All of this will be tempered by the type of day an individual has had, the commute to or from work (good or bad), etc. Sure, you can use the little emoticons like (:o) in your writing, but even that isn't the same as a face-to-face exchange.

Are there "cliques" here? I suppose it's possible, but I guess I would rather say that there are very good tree and shrub friends here who have known each other for quite a while and who respect each others opinions - even if those opinions don't match their own opinions. People from the same state or geographical region tend to pal around since their growing conditions are the same and they understand the "problems" that their local growing conditions present. Those people from other parts of the country, especially people new to the forums, may think they're being "cliquish", but that really isn't the case.

If you do a search of the trees and shrubs forum, you will find numerous posts from individuals welcoming a first-time-poster to the forum.

I'm sorry that people have felt the need to go running to Dave and Terry. There ARE "inside jokes" that are sprinkled throughout the forum. That is the kind of banter that comes from spending years in these forums with close plant-friends.

I guess this is no different than moving to a new city and trying to make new friends. Some people new may not feel at home right away. That is to be expected. That is life. It's not the intention of the regulars of this forum, it's just the way it is. There is really NOTHING that needs to be "fixed" here, IMHO.
My .02
Mike


This message was edited Mar 7, 2007 10:00 PM

I agree totally with Kevin. I feel like I have been pulled over by the "political correctness" police. There is such a thing as constructive criticism. If someone wants to plant Ligustrum, I'm not calling that person stupid, but I will express my feelings about the plant based on my experience with it. If we can't discuss the pros and cons of plants, then what's the point of having a forum? Forum is different ideas expressed not suppressed.

Is the formation of cliques on the internet even possible? E-cliques? Cyber cliques? Clicking for cliques? I find this whole topic laughable and much ado about nothing. I would say this forum is not dominated by cliques, but rather smart, knowledgable and humorous people with a passion for trees & shrubs. While I find some threads a bit over the top, and some people (IMO) try a bit too hard, no one is holding a gun to my head forcing me to read them. It looks like spring has finally come to this frozen wasteland--can we just get back to talking about plants?

As a newbie occasional poster one of the endearing traits of the regulars on this forum is in my opinion they all go above and beyond to be gracious and welcoming. Dave I am curious what was your intent in posting this thread? Are you hoping to eliminate banter and "inside jokes"? Is the element of humanity to be removed from DG for the *possibility* of "aggression under the covers"? *Presumed* slights or aggression abound in the work place, gym, neighborhood, and certainly on message boards at this time of year so does that mean we should distance ourselves further by eliminating all banter at the water cooler? kt

Oh no! Levilyla was indeed a valuable member here, I'm sorry to hear that.

Bingo...because they are not being truthful with us. This is a ruse. This has nothing to do with newbees. It has everything to do with Levilyla's posting Guy's website address on TerryR's thread "Quercus macrocarpa and others".

I'm very sorry, too. I suppose member protests will have no effect?

I typically lurk on the forums to learn, as I'm new to gardening (and also fairly new to DG as a paid subscriber). As a lurker, I have noted communication misunderstandings in this forum as well as others, where some have taken remarks personal, and/or where remarks under the guise of joking/kidding border on subtle forms of ad hominem abusive. Some are of the school to simply scroll on by, while others believe they shouldn't even have to encounter posts that require scrolling on by. As a paid subscriber, part and parcel of gaining access to the forums is the added bonus of keeping some of the riff-raff at bay (unless they pay for the privilege of posting it). As a quick aside, I am not one of those who ran to Dave or Terry to lodge a complaint (in my mind, "running" to Dave or Terry implies child-like snitching to an authority figure)...I simply observe how such things are handled and decide whether or not my paid subscription fulfills my expectations and go from there. If I felt so inclined to contact Dave or Terry privately to voice my concern(s) - then I would do so, which I do not equivocate to "running" to an administrator.

While I believe that frequent miscommunication is inevitable when communicating by electronic means (inherent to the lack of face-to-face discussion, which precludes all the non-verbal cues most often take for granted - this was previously mentioned), I also think regional and micro-regional differences in how folks communicate (regardless of method) - not to mention cultural distinctions as well - problematizes understanding, or, may perpetuate misunderstanding.

The internet ushered in a culture of electronic "sound-bite" communication. I think it safe to say that many hold expectations how others should communicate or interpret...while there may be rules and guidelines, I hold the opinion that this doesn't automatically produce a base level of universal understanding of what is or isn't acceptable. I've had the pleasure and displeasure of visiting, lurking, and participating on a number of online discussion boards since I gained internet access 12 years ago (with large gaps inbetween because of some of the nonsense I've encountered - burned once twice shy). Of these 12 years, DG is my first paid subscription.

If Dave didn't post this thread to welcome members to contact him privately about problematic posters and I continue to observe such postings, I simply would not renew my paid subscription. All in all, in my experiences here within the online kingdom of DG, I've observed and met countless knowledgeable, kind, caring folks; so, when I came across some of the edgey posts or personalities it really struck me as a non sequitur of sorts. Dave - thank you for posting this. Terry, thank you for your support.

This message was edited Mar 8, 2007 2:06 PM

With respect to the above post, I would certainly agree that e-communication is inherently more problematic than face to face communication, because nuances of what is said and the WAY it is said are subject to interpretation and misinterpretation. Joking on line can be tricky, but I hope that most of us are not so fragile as to be offended at everything said that could possibly construed differently by someone else. Many of us here, as stated numerous times above, have "e-known" each other for years -- and that makes it less likely that something said in jest would be misconstrued. That may well be less apparent to a newer poster.

However, I strongly disagree that the "rules" of conduct should be so tight that no post could ever be construed as offensive to any observer. Or even worse, that if a discussion digresses to the point that it is not of interest to someone, that that by itself should make the posters somehow be chastized or considered "riff-raff" (???) who should be kept at bay. I don't know what the nature of the "offense" was that prompted this post in the first place, nor do I specifically care. Discussions sometimes become heated, they sometimes wander, but as long as they remain basically respectful, what is the problem with scrolling by what doesn't interest you??? There is a lot here that interests me, lots that doesn't. I would never have the expectation that, paid member or not, everything should be interesting and that I should never have to scroll by posts. C'mon.................

To insist that all posts should be of interest to everyone, should always stay on topic and not contain any "inside jokes", seems to me to be constrictive in the extreme. Such rules often lead to harmonious but dull forums where there is never any real debate about anything, and where the most knowledgeable posters will often stay away. Such circumstances have lead to mass exoduses from one forum to another. Gardenbuddies was created when the old Garden Photography forum at GW left en masse. THIS forum was largely made vibrant by a similar exodus from the tree and shrub forums on GW. It would be a shame to have that happen here because of overly constrictive rules.

I have no problem with the administrators and owners of a forum like this asking participants if there is a problem. The almost unanimous response from the regular participants here shown above is that there ISN'T a problem. Of course if there are others who want to make private comments they should do so.

I would like to say that the tree and shrub forum is my very favorite thing about Dave's Garden, and the thing I enjoy most about it is the "inside" humor that prevails here. A humor that belies real friendship and respect among intellectual colleagues. I enjoyed this kind of easy intellectual discussion as a graduate student in seminars, and I think it is the very best way to explore new dimensions and horizons. Especially since my training is in another field.

Nearly every one of the "tree-nuts", those with more tenure here than myself has contacted me by D-mail at one time or another offering clarification of some point, or just to chat, or in some cases to offer seeds or cuttings of a plant I was interested.

I think a "police" type atmosphere absolutely would destroy the free exchange which is the best thing about this forum.

I would like to say here that if the admins ask for usernames of people making other people uncomfortable, you might take the opportunity to tell them, you are paying for the privilege. Glad to hear that so many of us are not having any specific problems. I would also like to volunteer to spank the ones who need it.

David in MI, I believe that a paid subscription helps keep the riff-raff at bay. Those who wish to troll (or bombard sites with ads - casinos and pornography immediately come to mind) are significantly less likely to do so if they must pay in advance to gain access. This is not to say that I have ever encountered such ads here as I have not, although I have observed what I would deem as troll-like behavior or posting that seems to be itching for a fight for no good reason (which is not the same as intellectual discourse or fun, enjoyable, humorous exchanges).

You state you strongly disagree that rules of conduct should be so tight - I've read the thread, re-read my post, and am wondering from where your disagreement stems. To be clear, I did not state that rules should be tight, loose, or otherwise. I merely commented that they don't produce a universally accepted standard. This, I believe, is somewhat unique and specific to the collective who participate. As an example, a member has a way of joking...the way this individual jokes does not change from forum to forum. What does change, are the participants. When this member joked on a thread within this forum, it was interpretted as an attack of sorts. When this member employed similar style joking on other threads in other forums, it was embraced as humorous light-hearted banter. It's simply subjective.

I don't know you, you don't know me; although, I do detect a slight defensiveness with a terse edge in your post that follows mine. Again, to be clear, I don't directly equivocate scroll on by with disinterest. I (note the "I" as the operative word here) use scroll on by for posts that are non sequitur in the negative sense - not posts that I don't find particularly riveting, informative, or intriguing. Others may not share my definition, and I don't expect them to do so. And, to be clear yet again, I made no mention that each and every post by each and every poster must be of interest to each and every one of us who visits DG. If anyone could do this, I will bow at their feet!

I'm not a proponent of policing as much as I am of self-policing. I police myself and yet, others find issues with what I post...so be it. I will still participate when I choose to do so.

As I remember, the "Itching for a Fight Thread" had to do with whether certain trees should be retained or removed, and the appropriate criteria for this. It was a very interesting thread, and it had nothing to do with fighting, simply asking for diverse opinions on the topic. Suddenly, the thread disappeared. I never found out what a "snag" tree is. Really sad.

Snags are decaying or dead trees. Here's a link that you might find helpful gloria.

http://www.wnrmag.com/stories/1996/feb96/critters.htm

Thanks PrairieG.

ME too PrairieGirl! ~ I was a lurker on that thread and I too was waiting to learn about snags as well. Thanks for the link.

Well, I'll keep suscribing as long as the threads stay informative and entertaining. If the place gets too mired in political correctness (for instance, more repeats of the "itching for a fight!" removal), then it's time to for me to move on. This is a business and the owners have every right to run it as they see fit, as I have every right to take my consumer dollars elsewhere. I can certainly understand how it would take some skill to police a place like this.

P.S. Thanks for the snag info, P.G. Also thanks, way above, to Patrick, for the Mars comment (a quick google and I learned something new)