Meadow Plantings

I have recently cleared an area of many white birches (I know, I know but one man's treasure is another man's trash and if you saw how many of them I left, you'd not be dismayed). As penance, I will replace them with native "meadow plants". Last year I started with the lower elements closest to the path. I the drier spots, I put in Elymus glauca and Eragrostis spectabilis. In the moister areas, some dogtooth lily that I hope won't get too much sun. Farther back, I've begun with New England asters. I'll probably start with some little bluestem back there this year.

Most of the grasses I buy in bulk seed and just cast it in the areas that I'd like them to be in. I prep those areas as if I were sewing a lawn and have had relatively good success.

I've also put about a couple Betula nigra 'Little King' which, if you don't know the plant is a fantastic cultivar. Which leads me to my first question: how do "native plant purists" feel about the utlization of cultivars of native plants rather than the straight species? Am I cheating?

My second question, if I'm not excoriated by your responses to my first question is: does anyone know of any unusual cultivars of Helenium or Ratibita that I can use?

I like tall orange and purple things. I used to be in love with Vernonia but she and I have had a falling out. Though we still talk, it's usually only when I see her in the wild.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll be back in about a week to see if anyone responds:)

Some of the purists are concerned that the cultivars will cross pollinate with true natives and contaminate the gene pool in natural areas.

I am probably not a true purist as I think I would rather see someone using cultivars than non-native invasives. I don't grow cultivars myself, but I am highly uncomfortable in telling someone what they can and cannot grow on their property, unless its invasive, of course.

I am sorry to hear that you had a falling out with Vernonia. She is so beautiful, I do hope that you can make amends.

Helenium autumnale is a neat flower, however IME, its kind of fickle and not necessarily perrennial - but rather sporadic in its appearance. (at least in the wild anyway...)

I have seen cultivars of ratibita...but cannot recall where, sorry...

If you like tall orange and purple things, you must be growing Echinacea species. There are several to choose from and most are tolerant of light shade.

You don't get much taller and purpler than Vernonia (that is, unless you're into Fagus sylvatica 'Riversii' or 'Purpurea Pendula').

Hopefully for you, 'Little King' river birch will be hardy. Haven't heard about growing that one up your way. Do you use U Maine - Orono stats for hardiness in making any of your picks?

As far as cultivars/clones go...if you are purporting to be doing restoration work, then use of clonal plants is kind of kidding yourself because it severely restricts your potential gene pool for a self-perpetuating system. If you are gardening/landscaping with a respect for native or indigenous plants, then clones are part of that community. However, the source of the plant cloned (its provenance) defines where it is native to.

I think 'Little King' was selected in IL, so it isn't ever going to be a Maine native no matter what way you slice it. Does that make you evil? Not to me. I doubt it will have the capacity to reproduce in your growing conditions. It's just another birch.

WWPD (What Would Purists Do)? If they were real purists, they'd have to propagate from seed only those plants that are/were growing on a particular site (or really nearby) during a particular era that they'd have to arbitrarily decide that they want to resurrect, and then only plant them and eschew all else. Shipping in plants from across the country (just because they happen to be the same species) to use in a restoration job would be verboten.

SP.....is there really such a thing as a PURIST who would go to that length?

is there really such a thing as a PURIST who would go to that length?

Absolutely. Particularly those of us doing restoration work on nature preserves and such, which is different from landscape work.

Wow, what a fantastic response........of course, I noted that I'd be back in a week but I am called to garden and can hardly stay away from discourse when there's a spare moment. I'm heartened that there are people like joepyeweed and at the same time ViburnumValley has me , the ornamentalist, glad that I'm not a mere poseur (sp?). I can hardly wait to see what'll be here when I get back.

Thank you all for the input so far,

And Best Regards,

watersedge

P.S. I aspire to joepyeweed's level of integration but that's like saying. "I love socialism but, why can't I choose my own doctor?".

Oh my, please, everyone, though I might have initiated a political commentary, I didn't mean to do so. My bad! I was mearly trying to get across that my aspired philosophies and my practises are not always in line. I do hope that any political commentary will be excused. Mea culpa,

And thanks again,

watersedge

What grasses have you broadcast so far?

What kind of a meadow is this? Dry and full sun? The only reason why I ask is you mentioned Little Bluestem.

Schizachyrium scoparium (Little Bluestem) is a great selection for a dry full sun meadow. Have you considered Dichanthelium clandestinum (Deertongue Grass)... no pun intended but it's a great grass. Others you might want to check into incorporating into your mix might be Tripsacum dactyloides, Sorghastrum nutans, Bouteloua curtipendula, and Panicum virgatum. That combination could really support some nice native forbs.

My point was that creating a landscape on private property has a different goal than restoring a natural area. No discourse intended. You asked a question on what purists think, I gave you the answer, but again I am not a purist.

I grow native plants in my yard, but it would be nearly impossible for me to create a yard of plants the same way that we propogate plants for nature preserves. And the goals are different. In order for the plants to be appealing in a landscape they are "planned" and positioned for maximum impact. In a natural enviroment we do just the opposite, scattering seeds and letting nature position them...

The world is not black and white, and I am totally comfortable adapting my philosophy to meet the needs of the situation. Its our ability to adapt that makes a person or a plant successful. Rigid and unbending philosophies have a tendency to go extinct.

very true

"meadow plants"
Should be Timothy and Alfalfa. An American language "PURIST" would use term 'hayfield'.

www.peak.org/~jeremy/dictionary/dict.html

Seeing how this is the indigenous plant forum, meadow takes on a different meaning than timothy and alfalfa....

This conversation is reminding me of something that I've been reading in Michael Pollan's, The Omnivore's DIlemna when he writes about corn and it's mastery of us and our landscape. The intoduction of that cultivar of a native species has had wide ranging effects in terms of not only the physical landscape but also our cultural one. I'm not sure that it's intended as a cautionary tale relative to this particular thread but it makes for thought provoking reading.

UUallace, I'm not sure what you were getting at when you make the hayfield distinction. I'm certainly no more interested in having a hayfield over a meadow than I would be to having shovel in place of a spoon at the dinner table. But you do raise the interesting question of the nuance between meadows and hayfields. If you respond(and I hope you will), please use whole sentences. I couldn't really tell what you were getting at:)

Equilibrium, The grasses I've sown as turf are the Leymus and Eragrostis. I have both wet and dry parts in this area. Thank you for reminding me of Sorghastrum nutans, though. I used to grow her down in Massachusetts and she was always a favorite. Think she'll take wet feet? If not, I can always put some Eupatorium there. I like E. rugosum and its hybrids. Plant Delights Nursery has some other nice culivars. Maybe even a few dwarf winterberries so that the turkeys needn't strain so much as they strip off the winter interest before Thanksgiving even hits. Sorghastrum is certain to go in somewhere up here, though.

ViburnumValley, U. Maine Orono's trial gardens are a fantastic resource. That part of the state, though not as brutal as some others, can be pretty darned cold. Fortunately, I am coastal and that gives me a pretty good buffer. A mere 1 1/2 hour drive west can make a 15 degree difference at daybreak. Phew!

And certainly, I am not in the design of this "meadow" for restoration purposes. I'm primarily motivated in my quest for "natives" as a do-less-harm-than-more approach combined with a feeling that the native look will simply fit in better. I see plenty of formal perennial borders around here and they look swell but a little too tarted up formy tastes, this largely rural area, and my inability to fund the constuction of the estate they look best in.

I am curious, though, why would the genetic material of a plant from Oregon be verboten planted in Maine to the purist? At first blush, that seems a little romantic to me.

Purity of ecotypes is complex and a commonly debated topic. There are no absolutes... so most when doing restoration work, we tend to err on the side of caution.

The best explanation that I have read is here:
http://www.prairienursery.com/neils_page/newsroom/EcotypicPage.htm

A pasture is grown for animals to graze. A hayfield (meadow in the United Queendom) is for the animals to eat in winter.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines meadow as: A tract of grassland, either in its natural state or used as pasture or for growing hay.

I think the conversation here, on the indiginous plant forum, is focused more on the first part of that definition, rather than the latter.

Well, okay. I guess that I want neither a meadow nor a hayfield. Thanks for clarifying that. I guess I'll just call it a garden that evokes some of the aesthetically pleasing qualities of an artificially maintained open space in New England:) (I do have to admit, though, calling it a meadow planting was so much easier.)

Since we are on grasses, is your screen name pronounced Water Sedge or Water's Edge?
http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/sustainable/handbooks/lawns/5.html

Little Green Sedge is native to Maine as are many others:
http://tinyurl.com/2azw4m

A natural grassland would include flowers and grasses, I think watersedge description of planning to plant "native" meadow plants was just fine and doesn't need any clarifying.

I was replying to UU, who seemed to imply that meadows were pastures, which is not necessarily the case.

Meadow is NOT a pasture. That is why "sheep are in the meadow" is a complaint; as is "cows in the corn". The sheep and cows are supposed to be in the pasture.

Does it really matter?

I like John Greenlee's writings.

Good question for you watersedge, is your screen name pronounced Water Sedge or Water's Edge? Only UUallace would ask that type of a question but now I am most curious. So... which is it? Water Sedge or Water's Edge?

watersedge, I like what you are trying to do on your property and joepyeweed summed it up quite well with "natural grasslands". Grasslands seem to be in high demand these days by wildlife gardeners. Sorghastrum nutans likes it moist but will tolerate dryer conditions once established based on my personal experiences. I don't think they like wet feet though. Turkeys are a tad bit out of range up there by you but they're fun. Your turkeys might like Botrychium spp. as well as Cornus spp. If you could find a space to sink some of those in the ground they'd be very happy turkeys indeedy. They'd probably think you were a turkey god if you planted some viburnums and Vaccinium. Yum yum, you would have many faithful followers. Speaking of which, they are particularly fond of corn and as UUallace mentioned, corn seems harmless enough although you could probably buy it at the local feed store for your backyard babies.

Water's Edge or water sedge...........I admit to never having questioned it before. It is the name of the building where I work. Knowing my boss's (How does one write that word?) relative disinterest in all things grassy and sedgy that are not incorporated into the turf, I suspect that its original meaning is water's edge since it is located on Somes Sound on Mt. Desert Island. For my part, I think that I will, from here on, maintain the ambiguity since I myself rather like both meanings.

UUallace, I think sedge's get a bad name: blister sedge, eggbracht sedge, and even nerveless woodland sedge. Funny names..... I picked out another Maine native sedge too from the link you sent, the Orono sedge. Thanks, UU:)

Joepye, thanks for your tireless dedication to my meadow.

Equilibrium, I have tons of turkeys in my neck of the woods. I thing of them as avian oppossums. My favorite thing to do is make them fly. They're huge aloft:) Vaccinium of several species abound here as do viburunum, leather leaf, and winter berry. I released 8 bobwhite quail last spring but I think they got snacked on by a fisher cat.

Truth be told, I did buy several plants of some very flashy cultivars of Ilex verticilata in hopes of being able to look at them in the winter. They weren't much more than 3 ft tall so imagine my chagrin when I came home to see the turkeys swaying back and forth on the upper parts eating everything off before the first snow had even come. Might be better to just plant out old appliances and dead cars. Turkeys and deer won't eat them and they'll look as indigenous as anything else giving my neighbor's propensity dereliction.

In any case, it's swell having people chime in and I'm loving the discourse. Be well and keep typing!

what discourse?

Well......I think there are at least a few ideas going back and forth. That discourse!:)

None was intended though.