Smooth sumac and roses

Any horticulturists out there? I have a question about smooth sumacs (Rhus glabra). I have several in my yard and have had problems with my roses dying if planted in the same vacinity of a smooth sumac. It doesn't seem to be a problem with shade as some of the sumac are only a foot tall. I just talked to a neighbor who also said that her roses died when the sumac appeared. So far it's just roses that have problems with this plant.

Mobi,

there are few references to sumac being inhibitive to other plants growth, similar to how walnuts do.

Thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for. I guess I'd better move the rest of my roses near the sumac, because they are one that is being affected!

I'm not a horticulturist like malusman, but I do like to garden! The link provided by malusman was for Rhus typhina, not Rhus glabra, which is what you have. The link is a reference to what seed will germinate near Rhus typhina. Specifically, it talks about germinating mustard, clover, wheat, and lettuce near a Rhus typhina (If you're a farmer, then I suppose having a Rhus typhina is a bad plant to have in your fields). I didn't see mention of Rhus glabra in the link provided. I've been doing searches lately for plants that can tolerate being near Black Walnuts (and the list is actually quite long of plants that are tolerant), so I included Rhus glabra into my search. I can find nothing to support the claims regarding the allelopathic compounds for smooth sumac. However, I did find evidence that the Rhus glabra gets verticillium wilt, as does a rose. Perhaps the problem is verticillium wilt. Roses are a fussy plant, prone to many different diseases and fungus's.

I did find this, thanks to you guys that says the

http://www.botany.wisc.edu/courses/botany_400/Lecture/pdf/16Fagal.pdf

smooth sumac (rhus glabra)

Woody, worldwide family (70/985)
with alternate, compound leaves
and pungent, often nasty volatiles or phenolics

I love these plants and will keep some but get rid of the rest (I'll just cut them back as they are almost impossible to kill).

I believe the one they're referring to is the poison sumac. From everything I've read regarding Rhus glabra, there is no poison in it, you can boil parts of it and it tastes like lemonade.
http://altnature.com/gallery/sumach.htm
Info on poison and non poisonous sumacs
http://www.hiltonpond.org/ThisWeek041208.html
here's another one
http://www.naturalfoodsdigest.com/natural_foods/natural_foods/the_rhus_glabra_or_sumac_plant.html
and another
http://garden.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Sumac

Here's a website that talks about controlling Rhus glabra
http://www.mdc.mo.gov/nathis/exotic/vegman/twentyfo.htm

Toxicity to people and toxicity to plants are very different - there's no reason why they should be the same!

Resin

I am now wondering if I misidentified it and actually have a staghorn sumac. Because the branches do have a velvet to them. It still leaves me with the same problem, though. Although the first pdf only show 4 plants that are affected by the sumac. My roses growth are inhibited by something and after my neighbor said that her roses died when the sumac showed up I am concluding that the sumac is to blame. Even the staghorn seeds can be used for lemonade.

Mobi,

A couple things come to mind. Just as various members of the Juglans genus exude juglone, it seems likely other Rhus species would be allelopathic. I doubt that it is very high on anyone's research list making it hard to find information on. Just because 4-5 of us can't find definitive proof of it on the internet using a google search doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It also doesn't mean that it does exist. However, there is a reference to one species of the genus being allelopathic so that is a start of a theory. That said, cause and effect is very hard to prove. I guess there's a reason that this kind of research is done by people with the time and resources necessary to do a thorough job. You could do your own preliminary, scientific experiment and then report back. Near the sumac, dig a large hole (4'-5' wide and 4' deep) and line it with an impenetrable lining like pond liner, leaving the bottom open for drainage. If you hit bedrock before 4' you don't have to blast your way to 4' for the sake of the experiement. Rock is an effective barrier to roots. Backfill with uncontaminated soil and plant your rose in it. Nearby, plant an unprotected rose. If the unprotected one dies and the other doesn't, then we may be on to something. *To do a really scientific preliminary test, you need to do this about 10 times for each type of planting. Use all of the same kind of rose for the test to eliminate that variable. Since this will be a lot of manual labor and I don't want you to meet an untimely demise because of a possible hidden heart defect, you'll need to hire a quality landscape company to do the work. I highly recommend Singing Hills Landscape out of Aurora, CO. I have personal experience with that company, having worked for them for several days. Well, actually they wouldn't have hired me but I twisted my brother's arm to let me go to work with him as I was conditioning to high altitudes for one of my solo backpacks in MT. Hehe, Malusman, the paid stoolie for Big Landscape/Garden Center. In case anyone's wondering, I started blowing smoke at the * mark. Anyway, I think that it'd be interesting if you did do a test like I described before I got carried away. It'd be more definitive than searching the net for answers from guys like me for sure.

Good Luck,
Ernie

This website would cease to exist if not for people asking questions and other people taking the time to research via the internet, even if it is just using Google (which I don't use BTW).

Terry,

It's was an attempt (poor) to poke fun at myself and not a reflection of the site and it's members. Sorry to any that took it that way.

Regards,
Ernie

Mobi:

While you are recovering from the smoke inhalation from LHDP's long-winded exhortation, let's be sure of what the plant is that you suspect is the offender. It'll also save a lot of wild sumac chasing around the WWW, whether it's via google/yahoo/insert your favorite search engine here.

Some of us saddled with dialup don't use any of the above, and manage just fine.

Any chance of posting a picture (full, and close up of parts) of the beast? Current shots will work, and any historic photos you may have are also good.

Yeah! Google schmoogle. That takes too much time. Sometimes--no, usually--I just know the stuff!

Anyway, I think that extrapolating that some or all sumacs might be allelopathic from evidence that one species is is perfectly reasonable. Certainly worth consideration and study, someday. Truly, Rhus is that kind of tough, scrappy, stinky, chemically-laden type of genus that tends to be anti-social like that.

Hopefully, science will make some strides soon with some of this stuff. It strikes me that allelopathy is particularly difficult to study properly, which is why it so seldom is. Soil science alone makes rocket science look like a cakewalk. Infinite climatic conditions, endlessly variable nutrient and/or mineral availability, changing pH, different geology, varying water quality and quantity, a planet's supply of micro and macro flora and fauna, and whatever else, it's a miracle they've got even some of it figured out. Throw in a bunch of plants that want to kill each other, and, hey, you know what? The phone's ringing. It's 5 o'clock. The grad students just went home. Funding just dried up, and supper will be ready soon. Let's just cede Penn State the glory on this one.

Scott

This message was edited Feb 24, 2007 8:08 PM

This message was edited Feb 24, 2007 8:09 PM

I have many Rhus Glabra in all of my beds and several have Roses. I have not seen any Alleopathic or any detrimental effects of Rhus. I will plant some bare roots under my biggies and see though.

soferdig,
That area in your picture is so pretty!

malusman, I probably won't be doing any scientific experiments in my very small yard anytime soon, sorry.

So far, I've only noticed roses having a problem. My 4 O'clocks are thriving with the sumacs. Now if only the bindweed would have a problem....

I am not a horticulturist (yet) but if I can venture a guess, it is that the suckering nature of the Rhus is robbing the roses of the water and nutrients they need to establish deep roots. Since Soferdig 's planting in raised beds, he doesn't have this problem.

But several smoothies are on native soil. Right now those are surrounded by tolerant species of thyme, sedums, Lamium, Oriential lillies, cimicifuga, and the list is endless. Yes I use primarily raised beds but most of my woodland is native soils not raised with compost, sawdust, manure ammendments.

What about the ones with roses? Like I said, it was a guess. ;-)

The only one I have near roses is a Tiger Eye. It is not too much of a runner. that is why I am going to plant some near the smoothies. I honestly don't know about roses but they are not too concerned about plantings around them anywhere in my garden. I have them thriving everywhere. No need to worry if roses don't survive because they are secondary plants. Ooooooh that is going to get some angry.

I know you have really good soil too. I wonder if that is the difference. That is only my hunch, I don't have either one. My sister is selling the property with my grandmother's roses on it, they were thriving with little care, but no sumacs. I wonder Mobi if the type of roses makes a difference, shrub roses are much easier and more forgiving of less than perfect conditions.

Well I have sumac in a couple different areas. One area had a prairie rose which died. Two different areas have New Dawn which are not doing much. I have another area where a shrub rose died and a veilchenblau which hasn't grown over a foot. Every where else that I have roses, they have taken off. In all these areas I have other plants which are thriving. That, and my neighbors roses died or died back when the sumac came up.

Mobi:

I still wish you could post a picture of this nefarious beast (even if you could pull up a chunk of it from a place you don't want it, and photo that against a neutral background).

I would describe Smooth sumac that grows in Minnesota as having a very close cut velvet, or matte look on new stems and berries. Staghorn sumac has very long, but fairly soft bristles on stems. Even the berries look bristly (althought shorter bristles then on stems). If you just look at Staghorn sumac, the stems would look prickly.

The cold drink gets its flavor from the bristles, so Staghorn will be more flavorful by shear volume of the bristles it has. I mash the berry "bunches" to help remove the bristles. The berries, and most of the bunches stay pretty well intact. Tastes like Kool-aid to me.

I have to wait 'til our snow melts before I can get a pic. The stems feel velvety, not prickly. I will get a pic in the next few days.

Leftwood - Do you have a recipe?

My smooth is smooth. My staghorn is fuzzy. When ever I see a fuzzy I pull it. I have a cut leaf staghorn that like to spread. The others are fine. Now to get me a couple of roses and plant them in the base of my smoothies. I always like experments like this. This is the only rose and you can barely see it (Yellow) that I bought for $1 in the dead summer rose pile and planted it in front of the rock to the right of the 'Tiger Eye'. It has thrived.

Fuzzy! That was the word I was looking for. Staghorns have fuzzy stems and berries.

Recipe for Rhus Juice, from an old book called Cache Lake Country, written by a north woodsman in the 1940's:

-- Gather seed(berry) heads of Staghorn( Rhus typhina) or
Smooth sumac(Rhus glabra) before weathered.
-- Just cover with water and crush everything together with a crushing club or rock.
Berries will not mash, but berry hairs will break off.
-- Strain juice through a sheet.
-- Add sugar and water to taste.

If juice has a muddy taste, you crushed too long or heads are too weathered.
Try not to gather seed heads where dust may accumulate, like near a road or farm field,
unless you like the taste of dust.
I suppose you could use Winged sumac too. I don't know. It isn't native up here or
where that woodsman lived.
The book didn't mention anything about heating or boiling, and I never have.
It has always been my contention that a few germs here and there are a good thing.
Maybe that's why I never get sick.

Thanks, we have one at school (Rhus typhina), it would be now that you gather the seed(berry) heads, right?