Working on out door bogs what to add?

I have a few bog I am working on and would like to know if their is any certain chemical that I can add to make the soil more acidic with out adding any nutrients? Does anyone know what should be added. I was thinking of adding pine chunks to the mix or pine needles? Should this do the trick? THANKS

Excellent thought process! I've added white pine needles to my medium myself. I've also added a little bit of vinegar to a gallon of water. You'd want it diluted, very diluted so start with a teaspoon. If you are using Canadian Sphagnum Peat, you shouldn't need to worry about this for a bit. You might want to skip adding pine chunks.

One side of my yard is covered in pine needles so I raked them all up and took them to the other side of the yard and used them as mulch under my acid-loving plants (camellias, hydrangeas). Florida is like one big chunk of limestone so if I ever get a blue hydrangea it will be a miracle! But I definitely think the pine needles are helping. I always like using natural ingredients. I think it makes more sense to try and replicate how things naturally work than to dump a bunch chemicals in the ground.

Yup, your blue hydrangea are destined to be pink in that pH;)

If you want to try forming the complexes in hydrangea that turn some blue, try adding aluminum sulfate. Dilute the solution and drench the soil around where you planted the hydrangea in early spring and again in late spring and presto voila! You should have blue blooms for that season. The other thing you can do is toss your tomato scraps and coffee grounds around the base of your hydrangea.

Try 1 Tbsp of aluminum sulfate to 1 gallon of water. Mine are all planted directly in the ground so it's difficult for me to keep up. This article best sums it up but you will have to scroll down-
http://www.hydrangeashydrangeas.com/colorchange.html

Hey Equil, some of my older rhododendron reference books ( The Smaller Rhododendrons -Peter A. Cox and some others I can't lay my hands on at this moment) caution against repeated use of aluminum sulphate as over time it can become toxic to the roots. They reccommend ammonium sulphate instead. Hy-Yield is a common brand. I used to be able to get it off the shelf locally until the greenhouse went out of business. Now I get it from www.cooperseeds.com

For acidification without adding any form of nitrogen try soil sulphur also a Hy-Yield product. It works especially well when done in late fall and mixed in with the mulch.

This message was edited Jan 10, 2007 11:56 AM

Has anyone heard of adding white vinegar to the CP bog? It would bring the PH up. It small ponds and bogs that hold more water usually catch more decaying leaves and the nitrogen can go up higher killing off CPs. I am wondering if having more a water logged bog and adding vinegar would help them in this situation? Has anyone tried this before. In most natual areas were the CPs are growing in shallow water pines and other acidtic plants are around more than likely keeping the pH of the water higher?

Hey snapple, regular garden sufur will work too. I've not had a problem using the aluminum sulphate but then I don't go overkill either. Aside from that, I dilute it well and only drench twice in spring. Maybe that's why I haven't had any issues? I've heard ammonium sulphate will work but I haven't tried it.

Yes bwilliams, it was me who started adding white vinegar to my acid bogs and it did help. Bogs should never be attached to ponds though. It's ok for standing water to exist in a bog but not a good idea for our backyards.

I am watching and reading to produce my own bog. How about apples and other fruit to acidify. Just dump in the left over orchard debris.

Not a good idea sofer. Acid bogs are nutrient deficient so you might want to save those goodies for your compost pile. There's a thread here somewhere on creating an acid bog from scratch. If you can't find it, let me know and I will go searching for it.

I found it and thank you. I have been reading through the site. Too fussy for me I think I will just have a swamp with bull rushes and wait till I have nothing else to do and then start bog gardening. LOL

Hey bwilliams, I went looking and found a few threads from other areas of the site that might be of interest to you-

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/460591/

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/588321/

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/465245/

sofer, you don't know what you will be missing... once you go soggy... you never go back!

I could see it in zone 6 and up but my flowers couldn't get put in until may and out in September not much time to enjoy. I can always add holes to my pond later and get a bog. Right now I think the phesants would like the pond and the frogs will sound musical. Then when it starts leaking like all ponds and I am fully retired I can build a green house and winter over zone 5 and up plants.

There are 5 intensely beautiful carnivorous plants that simply can't be grown in a zone cooler than 4 based on my experience. If you were interested in growing CPs outside year round, it could be done. Time is the limiting factor unfortunately and you really have a lot on your plate right now.

Thanks I just got back from Atlanta botanical garden they have a huge collection of Cps their. Thanks for the links

Yes, they certainly do. Their conservation gardens are phenomenal and are home to Sarracenia rubra spp. jonesii, S. alabamensis, and S. oreophila. They have a really neat tissue culture lab too.

Were you able to take any photos you could share?

Here is a pic of some of the collection in the back greenhouses.

in the high elevation house

The Heliamphora is awesome! Great photos!

nepenthes

I've never had a pitcher that big on any of my plants. I remembered that they had some big honkers over there.

The information in this discussion is invaluable, thanks.

We are preparing to create a bog--we live in southwest Florida. We understand we should use "distilled" water or rain for the bog. It's not yet our rainy season, so we will be using purchased water for our bog. We have a question about the type of water to buy. Is it possible to use water labeled as "purified" or must we locate and use only "distilled" water? If we should use only "distilled" water, where can we buy it?

Thanks for your help.

WalMart. Stay away from the water they sell that is distilled that is calcium enriched or laced with fluoride for kids. In a pinch, my husband has picked up distilled water for me from the grocery store but they are much more expensive than WalMart.

I've done checks on "purified" water and wasn't too happy with the readings. I'd also steer clear of spring water. Quite a few hight readings on that too.

Do you have a downspot to your gutters? If so, is there anyway you can stick a 15 gallon wash tub underneath one to collect some rain water for when you hit your rainy season? Rain water is generally perfectly acceptable to water a bog with.

Have you ever considered Reserve Osmosis water? Many aquarists use an RO system to condition water before doing an aquarium water change. The aquarium hobbyist then reconditions the water to suit the particular tank conditions his/her fish require. There is the initial up front cost of purchasing the RO equipment plus the membrane(s) will have to replaced at some point depending on gallons produced. But, you have steady reliable supply of perfect water always at hand. The systems can be simple or elaborate. Below is a link for one of the biggest online sellers of pet and aquarium products, but they are by no means the only seller. Their sales are good and so are their "kits" in which they put together all the necessary equipment components with comprehensive but simple instructions. ( My biggest complaint about anything from FosterSmith is the cost of the shipping. They may have the best price but often the shipping cost will wipe that out - plus some.) Anyway, if you've got room for a plastic garbage can in the basement or utility room and a faucet you can hook up to for a few hours (it's a slow process) you can have all the distilled water you need whenever you need it.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/NavResults.cfm?N=2004&Np=1&Ntt=ro&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Ntk=All&Nty=1&pc=1

I have an RO/DI system. I don't believe the DI phase is all that important.

A reverse osmosis system is the way to go if you don't want to lug water back and forth but it does have many drawbacks. Cost being one of them and then there would be the additional cost of the water storage tanks.

The other issue is that not all RO systems are created equal and most unfortunately, the more efficient systems do cost more. And, no way to avoid the cost of shipping and handling as nobody ever seems to find these systems locally which is a big bummer.

When purchasing an RO system, pay particular attention to the cost of replacement membranes. You will go through membranes. Seems as if the cheaper systems hit you on the back end by nailing you for membranes that are only available through them and they jack the prices up up up.

Bad news is that the water supply is not always steady and reliable. Too many factors that play into that but only those who are on city water who have good pressure should be considering an RO or an RO/DI system otherwise there will be many additional costs to produce the quantity of water one might be expecting. It's not uncommon for people on wells to get one gallon of water per day and the "waste" water would be enough to make anyone who is resource conscious disgusted. I do trap my waste water and use it for other plantings but that did require another large capacity water tank- $$$. I think it's nice to have the RO system as a back up for emergencies but if I knew then what I know now (I'm on a well and have a husband who is an engineer who was able to make the system function some semblance of the way I imagined it would), I wouldn't have purchased it.

Nothing like the voice of experience Equil. Good info. We have city water here that is already softened - Kh1 out of the tap but Ph an unbelievable 9. The Ph drops to 7.8 in 24 hours if left to stand. So I am not eating up membranes and the water pressure gives me 30 gallons over night. I obviously never gave a though to the problems a well would cause. I've always been miffed over our city keeping the Ph so high and the Kh so low. Try having a planted blackwater tropical fish tank with that!

"I would refer to it more as the voice of stupidity. When one is dumb, one generally pays."

Personally, I have tended to learn my best lessons from my worst mistakes. :-) That reminds me of a quote the source of which I can't remember-- "Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, the experience usually comes from bad judgment."
:-)

-Steve

Pretty true. To that quote I will add this and I can't remember who said it either-
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself."

D'ya think I could have taken a clue that we had severe water issues over here from all the other wells in the same subdivision that went dry that had to be re-drilled? Noooooooo, I was out there watering my plants without a care in the world mocking the drought. And then it happened. The water stopped and the hose started sputtering. I stood there wondering who the idiot was who shut my water off and went running around the house to find the culprit.

Blackwater is a soft acidic tank with tea colored water often achieved through the use of peat in the filter for fish which prefer a Ph around 6. I have a Cardinal Tetra tank with Amano and Cherry Shrimp and a few other assorted softwater community tank fish. When you have the goofy water I have with an extremly low Kh and a very high Ph you can't get the Kh high enough to support Co2 for plants in the tank without adding sodium bicarbonate which raises the Ph even higher. So you either RO the water and recondition it to spec or play mad chemist with the water you have and try to get the Co2 high enough to support good plant growth. It's challenging but fun. I've done it both ways. It's just gardening underwater with some touchy livestock thrown in for good measure.

We have a point well for irrigation which goes dry every August. I have learned that I can't rely on it. And the water is very hard. Just five miles from here the water is sulphur water. The smell of rotten eggs is overpowering. Most of the adjacent ( about 75 miles south and west) farm folk on wells are experiencing the same problems you are having. They have gone after a couple of large manufacturers in class action suits for drying up the local water table. They have been surprisingly successful. However the aquifers don't recharge so it seems an empty victory. Except that the local municipal authorities are much more restrictive now in how much water they will allow a manufacturer to take from the ground.

Oh noooooooooo, how could you do this to me???
Now I'm going to want to start underwater gardening! This is all your fault.

I hear you here- "So you either RO the water and recondition it to spec or play mad chemist with the water you have and try to get the Co2 high enough to support good plant growth." Not that I've ever had the pleasure of messing with it but those who grow Aldrovanda sometimes "charge" their water with supplemental CO2. You might find this interesting-
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~teosb1/diy-co2.html

Dupla is considered by some to be THE premier company for Co2 aquarium equipment. I use a German made system called CarboPLus which runs a weak electrical current through a carbon block. It is not as effective as cylinder Co2 and costs more to run as the blocks have to be replaced regularly and they ain't cheap. But it is very, very simple. So simple I can do it. It takes two CarboPlus units to adequately gas a heavily planted 75 gal. soft water aquarium. They are on timers so that they shut off at night. Otherwise, since the plants give off Co2 at night when they stop photosynthesizing, you could have a nasty Ph crash caused by excess Co2 in the water. The fish would go belly up in short order. I run an areator at night that turns on automaticaly when the Co2 shuts off. Honestly, Equil, it's a lot of fun.

I did ask for a cylinder Co2 system for Christmas. Hubby took one look at the required equipment and looked at me with my mechanical knowledge and said NO WAY! I don't give up that easily. I'll try again next Christmas.

You gotta post photos!

Thanks Equilibrium and everyone else who jumped into the 'bog water' question:-)!
We're developing a new-found respect for Walmart from reading these discussions. Fortunately, it's right next to Home Depot which is my hubby's favorite store so I expect I'll have no trouble talking him into an extra trip or two until we get some much needed rain here in Florida. None of us want to pray too hard in case we end up with a hurricane but a wee bit would be very nice right now.

An RO system is a bit too high tech for us plus we are short on space but thanks for this info as well - very interesting.

Rain barrels should be a law in FL but we are not very environmentally evolved down here yet. Any tips on setting up a system in small surroundings would be much appreciated including where to get inexpensive kits or simple ways in which to do it effectively.

Which comments were most helpful?
How to extract money from a husband ;)
Just teasing with you.

Rain barrels are great but there are some types of roofs out there that shouldn't be utilized for collection. What comes to mind for me would be any Cedar shake roof that has been treated with a fungicide or preservative but there are a few other exceptions to the rule.

Hmmm think we're ok with clay tiles on the roof
Not something I would've thought of, so thanks again

I just checked around on line and found this site which specifically discusses rain water collection from clay roofs-
http://www.twdb.state.tx.us/publications/reports/RainwaterHarvestingManual_3rdedition.pdf

My two brothers used to design and build rainwater collection systems in the fairly arid Hill Country of central Texas. One of them has no well nor city water: all of his water for various uses comes from his extensive rainwater collection system and large storage tanks. They are the ones who got me interested in rainwater collection, but on a much smaller, barrel-under-the-drainpipe scale. :-)

A few years ago the strong prairie wind and the occasional large hail finally wore out the asphalt shingle roof where I live (eastern New Mexico) and we replaced the shingles with a metal roof (we _love_ the new metal roof). After that I began to collect rainwater from the roof, which is now what I use for all the orchids, carnivorous plants and other plants too (if there's enough rainwater). This is a rural area with no industrial air pollution, so the water I'm guessing is fairly pure and the plants seem to love it.

However, even if we still had the asphalt shingle roof I would probably still collect the rainwater and try it, being observant for any possible harmful effect, because our tap water is miserably full of bottom-of-the-aquifer minerals and distilled water, for so many plants, can be expensive.

Regarding clay roofs, clay is basically inert. I would think that water collected from clay-tile roofs would be very pure except for any contaminants that the rainwater picked up from the atmosphere. However, as the document at the link mentioned by Equilibrium says, red clay earthenware tile (unlike higher-fired stoneware clay) is porous and can conceivably develop algae or fungal growth (I guess if enough organic matter gets trapped in the clay's pores). That document suggests a ceramic sealer be painted on the raw clay tile but lists no other cautions that I could find about collecting rainwater from a clay tile roof.

Anyway, if I had a clay tile roof I certainly would collect rainwater from it. If I didn't seal it I would still probably collect and use the water for my plants (although I wouldn't drink it, I guess), and if I later noticed any fungal growth that was harmful and that I suspected the water of carrying, I might consider using one of those ultraviolet light water sterilizers.

However, as it is now, my rainwater barrels grow algae and the wind blows organic matter into the barrels which then sits in the water and begins to look like the stuff in a Sarracenia purpurea pitcher, but I still use that water. I do occasionally clean out the rainwater collection barrels though, of course! :-)

By the way, is there somewhere here at Dave's Garden that shows one how to put a hyperlink or quoted text into one's messages? I notice links and quoted text in others' messages but have no idea how to do it myself. :-)

Steve


This message was edited Apr 8, 2007 9:06 AM

This message was edited Apr 8, 2007 9:08 AM

(quote)place what ever you want to quote between(/quote)

Now, I used the ( and the ) to show you how it should look without actually making it end up in a quote box but you will need to substitute the ( for a [ and the ) for a ] to make it work.

Practice.

Now try italics substituting the ( for a < and the ) for a >

ITALICS
(I)ITALICS(/I)

And underlined

ITALICS
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And bold

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