Salix...

Any help over here - I posted in trees but need all the help I can get!!

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/679610/

Moving parts of posts over here so that maybe frostweed will see them and try to help.

Here are links that might mention some differences-
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/salix/nigra.htm
http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~shill/pdf/Salix_Veg_Key.pdf

Qyestion was asked if identification could be made while the plants were dormant.

Maybe but there's a member out there named leftwood who probably could and what about frostweed? I bought a little book leftwood recommended to help me titled "Winter Tree Finder" by May and Tom Watts. You might like that little key. I think it was under $5.

Leaves are always a big help to me but check this out for Sandbar Willow (taken from plant facts)-
Twig: Slender, pale green to tan, may be reddish in winter, fuzzy or not; buds covered by a single cap-like scale.
Bark: Silvery gray to gray-green, becoming shallowly fissured with time.
Form: A thicket forming shrub with numerous small diameter stems, spreads by underground root suckering, may reach up to 25 feet tall.

And here too-
http://www.fs.fed.us/global/iitf/pdf/shrubs/Salix%20exigua.pdf

I am not particularly fond of Sandbar Willow because it suckers and definitely forms thickets around here but there are those who are. Worse case scenario is that I could go drive down the street to the next town and take detail photos of the thicket of Sandbar Willow for comparison.

S. nigra (taken from plant facts) -
Twig: Slender, orange-brown in color, with a bitter aspirin taste; buds are small and appressed, covered by one bud scale, the terminal bud absent; stipules/scars are obvious.
Bark: Brown to gray-black, with thick, somewhat scaly ridges and deep furrows.
Form: A small to medium sized tree that can develop a massive trunk with a spreading, irregular crown. Black willows are often affected by crown gall, and witches brooms and trunk sprouting are common.

and here-
http://www.plantbio.ohiou.edu/trees/Salix%20nigra,%20winter.htm
http://pick4.pick.uga.edu/mp/20p?res=640&see=I_JP1075

The Black Willow might be a little bit easier to nail down because it has a prominent axillary bud that reminds me of a little off colored navy bean.

I haven't a clue how to distinguish the Black Willow from the Goodding Willow but I love a good hunt.

Just for fun, I'm posting these links-
http://www.science.siu.edu/plant-biology/PLB304/twigs.html
http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/MANHART/TWIGS/key.htm
http://www.hainaultforest.co.uk/3Winter%20twigs.htm

Equilibrium, you are so sweet to think of me for help, unfortunately I am not very good at identifying plants unless I have some personal experience with them, and I just happen to not know much about Willows.
I think you are doing an excellent job with all those links, and maybe when the trees leaf out we will have better luck.
Josephine.

This message was edited Dec 24, 2006 11:53 AM

Thanks - Will start looking to see.. need more books... hehehe neeeeed more books.

HAAAA! From the sites I know before I get out in the rain they are both black willow...

Ans here I thought I had two diffrent trees - shows me.

Haaaa! Not so fast... tee he. There's some controversy out there regarding Black Willow and Goodding Willow. Sorry, couldn't resist tossing that in forgive me but I've got the holiday slap happy sillies. Maybe the Black Willow and the Goodding Willow are both Black Willows... and maybe not....

Really? I sure hope not... black willow is a great plant from the sounds of it but goodding willow is a bad bad plant... suckers sooo bad... I guess I will get out in the rain and take the photos and hope... I need to just get used to taking cameras with me and photos when I go hunting for cuttings. I was out looking for cottonwoods over 50 years of age (wanting to find some really old big uns!) for cuttings and found this willow... for cottonwoods I know them more less and just need a little bit of notes and am good to go.

goodding and black.. go figure...

Sandbar Willow suckers quite a bit too.

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/salix/nigra.htm
"Some authorities consider Salix gooddingii as a variety of S. nigra, which extends the range to the Western United States (3,9)."

http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?keywordquery=Salix+nigra&mode=sciname&submit.x=12&submit.y=8
USDA has them as separate species.

This one about sums it up-
http://reference.allrefer.com/wildlife-plants-animals/plants/tree/salnig/introductory.html
"Salix nigra, S. gooddingii Ball, and S. amygdaloides Anderss. are
closely related taxa commonly referred to as the black willows [26].
The three species are not easily distinguished morphologically, and in
fact, some authorities consider S. gooddingii to be S. nigra var.
vallicola Dudley or S. n. var. venulosa (Anderss.) Bebb. [5,8,36]."

Looks as if the big boys are duking it out.

wow... would hate to be the one on the wrong side of this debate... so is their any value to photos of the trees if they are the same more less? if they cannot figure them out .. oh well. I am going to be adding several bought willows here too this year looking for willows that will do good here and I how to have a good collection of the smaller willows that will stay tame and live in this area... seeing that the natives are on the bigger side... anyway I am building the collection this fall and winter one here one there in hopes of a good group of them (and always hunting for more)

What is it in me that makes me plant so many trees? Wife swears that I am going to have the whole national forest in the back yard before I am done...

I think what it comes down to is buying plant material from a reputable nursery so you know what you've got. The membership here would probably be able to identify the Sandbar Willow from the Black Willow and Goodding Willow although I don't believe anyone would be able to tell whether you've got Black Willow or Goodding Willow based on what I've read. I'd take your photos and post them all over in the plant id forum and see what others say.

I don't ask that question any more. I like trees therefore I plant them. I try real hard to plant one native tree or shrub for every two or three invasive trees or shrubs that I remove from my property. My husband and your wife have something in common... they both think we're going to end up with a forest in the back yard.

I will get them over there and take a look to see what they can come up with... Dark here already but I will get out there in the morning and give it a shot. I know that I have some tree branches here that I can take a few pics from and see what they think over there. Wish it was evergreen, there are some great folks on here who really know there evergreens. ... .

So far I have found most of the willows in places where I know where that have been, or from folks who know for sure.

Native - lol... I have so many natives here that I have been accused of a wild place rather then a garden.. and I said thank you. I plant too many trees... even bad trees that are native but noone around here wants, why I dont know just love them... maybe my home will be the next Texas State forest. I keep thinking to my childhood and sometime in high school I started planting trees, then those I found growing here and there and moving them into the garden and letting them grow... I would hate to see those yards now... if no one cut a few of them I bet you they are mini forests themselves. Even in college I keep trees in pots in the dorm room... I should have gone for a degree in trees, would have been a lot more fun.

Here are my pics of the cutting, will get tree pics if they need them - here is one of three...

2

3

Here ya go with the first part... http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/679819/ now to go out and get this one for sure an id then off to the next one...

If it sooo hard to wander in the forest and not take a few cuttings..... the pain is trying to find out what you have for sure...

At this time of year, the twigs on our Black Willows stand out because they are a red/brown. Not as red as a red twig dogwood but you get the idea. Hard to describe. Twigs of Sandbar Willow are yellowish orangish tannish grayish. If you saw the two of them right up next to each other you'd readily be able to spot the color difference.

I see there are still a few leaves left in your photos. Why don't you look closely at them and feel the margins because the Black Willow is finely toothed while the Sandbar Willow leaves are entire but you might be able to feel a spattering of teeth. Another thing is the feel of the twigs. Black Willow is usually smooth while Sandbar Willow can be a little hairy. Other than that, what was the height of the plant you took these from? S. exigua is actually more of a shrub and attains heights of around 15-20' around me while S. nigra grows as tall as 40' maybe 45' and is classified as a tree. Now mind you... this could all be out the door because willows are known to hybridize. Are you ready to pull your hair out yet?

Resin is much better at identifying woodies than me. I can't tell the difference between S. nigra and S. gooddingii... if there even is much of a difference but maybe he can. Catkins are always a big help but you are a few months away from being able to photograph those. Getting good photos of the leaves would be nice too but then again, you're quite a few months away from getting leaf photos. Placing a ruler in the photo would be wonderful.

I went surfing the net for you. I love a good hunt!

The first herbarium specimen at this link sort of shows you that color for S. nigra that I was trying to describe-
http://www.ibiblio.org/botnet/flora/images/Salix_nigra001.jpg

There are some great images here-
http://rnrstreamer.lsu.edu/ecosystems/webtour/species/blackwillow/blackwillow.htm

gooddingii or niagra.. it was a young tree but already bigger then the exigua, the stems are smooth so exigua is out.


They mix and give all of us a good time... we may never figure it out. I know Niagra is the biggest group down here - with all others being listed rare (at least local). I need to find a baby gooddingii and let it grow to see for sure what one it is...

Only way is to buy another tree.. yep only way.

Don't give up on Resin or any others who may be able to weigh in just yet. I may be out of the ballgame right now but Resin's forgotten more about woody identification than many know. Hang in there.

Say Mitch, Merry Christmas to you and your family!

Ya'll too - have a great and Merry Christmas.

Resin gave me a list of photos to take next year in the spring from the mother or from my own here, she might be able to help me then.

Resin is a him not a her ;)

lol - sorry being out numbered on here I always guess she first! Teach me... :-)

Ahh, I doubt seriously if he'd take offense to having been referred to as a her. I've had quite a few people who thought I was a him. User names throw us all off.

True - user names are really hard. Even with mine on here I have been called she at least once... does not bother me one bit.

I emailed the pic to TAMU and will see if and when they get back to me.. never hurts to use all the helps I can get.