Anyone else for a bird forum or id file ?

It seems to be of interest from some, but wanted to get everyones opinion ? I don't really know the difference between wildlife & gardening for wildlife..?
Pictures of birds are ending up in either one. So why not have at least a forum for birds & related topics to birds ? Does anyone else agree?

I fully concur With our Feathered Friend betterbloom
Heres My First contribution should it ever get of the ground.

OMG, they are beautiful! Was this taken in your yard ?

I agree and would LOVE to see a Bird forum here.
Beautiful photo Ginger!

Thank you pelletory,
The birds here just love to pose.

Bump... I'd like to hear more opinions on this one.

Speaking purely as a birdbrain, of *course* I'm all for a bird forum. ;-) ...as long as there are no discussions of intentionally harming or killing any species of birds. The idea for a bird forum has surfaced previously; it wasn't terribly long ago that this forum was added. If there were to be a bird forum, I would keep any bird ID questions *in* same. I think that the place to start a thread on the topic of a bird forum would be:
http://davesgarden.com/forums/f/dg/all/

I wouldn't want to be the one trying to pigeon hole all the topics... pun intended. :D

I want there to be a bird forum too! Please Dave? Thanks!

Marilyn

Northern Mockingbird

I don't think 5 people are enought to convince Dave. Let's give this a little more time and see if others are also interested.

I think ya' need to put it in the dave's garden link above. That's where these issues get support--or at least attention :) Who wants to start it? lol

Okay I put it in. :-)

(LOL) So did I..two is better than one!

Okay.... Here's the thread that was started in dave's forum: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/680518/

Please be sure to make your wishes known there, or the management won't know :) If y'all really want this, you may want to post in the regional garden forums to alert people to the message thread so as to round up support!

This message was edited Dec 28, 2006 10:10 PM

Magpied, Pelletory and I both posted a request at the same time. Terry posted a hyperlink to combine the two. So now we have to round up others for their support. I would think they would realize their is a need considering how many posts there are and the fact that bird watching is the fastest growing outdoor activity. And if we all have gardens, we have birds. Althought I also can be a birdbrain, I wasn't aware of that forum, so others might not be either.
I'll work on letting others know and we'll see what happens.
Almost forgot, a terrible thing, do any decals work on windows, to keep the birds from flying into them? This is becoming a problem and I darn near cry every time one dies like this. I'm going to town tomorrow so I going to look for a siloquette (I need my spellcheck) of a hawk but I don't want to scare the birds off either. I know I read somewhere about decals, but do any work, or do I need certain ones?

I just bought some so I can't say how well they work yet but the shop owner say they worked very good.. Their called Window Alert and they reflect ultraviolet sunlight. It says is invisible to humans but glows like a stoplight to birds.
They get put on the outside of the window (special instructions for winter application).

Here's a link that Equil started about stopping birds from hitting windows
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/651620/

I am totally against this idea if we cannot educate readers about how to protect our native birds from non-native species which kill our native birds. What are we supposed to say when someone asks if they can put up a Bluebird house? Just say no? If I am asked about how to provide housing for Bluebirds and other cavity nesting birds I always start with House Sparrow and Starling control. If the native birds will not be protected the housing should not go up. I'll copy this wherever the link takes me.

Did any one post a request for support in the Wildlife Discussion Forum? That might help get more members to mosey on over and comment. Also, there's a Butterfly and Hummingbird Forum out there somewhere that I ran into once. Everybody seems to love photos of Hummers.

Comments for a bird forum are being written in Dave's Garden.

If you posted here looking for people to go over there so you could get everyone's opinion, wouldn't you want to also post in the Wildlife Discussions Forum or that Butterfly and Hummer Forum to get more members to comment? I'll go take a look over in Dave's Garden but most people don't even know that Forum exists and I suspect many people may not be finding it to be able to comment. So many more people post photos of birds in the Wildlife Discussions Forum than back here in Gardening For Wildlife and additionally there are so many more who lurk over in the main Wildlife Forum without ever posting that it would seem like a natural to reach out to more members by posting a link to the thread requesting a new Forum there as opposed to here. Gardening For Wildlife seems to have a different focus and intent than the other Wildlife Forum and most assuredly would have a different focus and intent than a Bird Forum to ID birds and share photos and such.

For me, I'd be for it if others wanted it but I'd only post over there if I needed help with a bird identification for my husband. It's my husband who is the birder in this house while I more Garden For Wildlife in general. I’d also go over there to lurk to look at photos with my MIL. She and I regularly visit the Wildlife Discussion Forum and sometimes we visit the Pets Forum. We love critter photos and on Sundays when she comes over, we look at the photos together. The more photos the better and DG has some excellent photographers in its midst.

Gosh, I forgot about that windows thread. It's been a while. I've got to go over there as I ran into something interesting on line regarding artificial threats and human assisted competitors as pertain to avian mortality.

Equil: I too was not aware of the Dave's Garden forum, but was asked to post it there. I guess everyone, but us, knew about it because there is plenty of posting there. Also, like me, others were posting birds in the Wildlife & Gardening for Wildlife, I never really knew what the difference was. This was why I suggested a forum just for birds.

Hey betterbloom, I knew about the Dave's Garden Forum and have posted in it in the past but I don't have time to go over there with any regularity unless somebody sends me there specifically to look at a thread which you have done. I'm reading that thread right now and am not all that surprised at what I am seeing. If you all get your new Birdwatching Forum, I probably would only stop in with my MIL to view photos shared. One of the reasons why I don't even visit the Water Gardens Forum any longer is because Heron are birds that are protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and as such I believe they should never be destroyed because a heron dared eat someone's non-native koi. Same deal with Hawks and Kingfishers which have also been known to swipe expensive "pet" fish from artificial ponds. The fish stocked in people's ponds are pets to them so I just stay away from that forum. I long ago gave up on having expensive koi for a number of reasons. My heron were using them as dietary supplements and... rightfully so if I continued to provide the $$$ smorgasbord. It was a conscientious choice I made when I stopped buying koi. Non-native koi that wreak havoc in aquatic ecosystems when introduced either intentionally or unintentionally OR native Heron? It wasn't a difficult decision for me who loves indigenous species of both plant and animal but for those who love their koi and have no interest what so ever in making an educated decision by being informed that native fish hunt by sight and that by allowing koi to be introduced to any natural body of water can cause entire native fish kills which can and will have an immediate impact on the native birds that once relied upon the native fish in that body of water...., I could see where people who love their koi wouldn't want to be exposed to that kind of information so why try to interject it in that type of a forum? They love their koi, end of story. That pond of mine that had been stocked with koi ended up being stocked with mosquitofish and fathead minnows which are both native to my State so the Heron could glide on in and dine without me losing fish that were rather expensive and no risk to the environment if those two species escaped via the Heron and I no longer felt like choking Mr Heron to death. Please note... felt like choking Mr Heron to death but never would. Similar deal with our Pets Forum for me although I do go over there with my MIL to look at photos from time to time but there are simply too many photos of cats allowed to roam free as well as people feeding strays and even people who promote feral cat colonies for me so I simply don't post anything other than idle chat or compliments reserving other thoughts for over here in Gardening For Wildlife. It's sort of obvious to me that there is an unwritten rule in the Pets Forum that people posting shouldn't discuss anything that might be found distasteful to those who conscientiously choose not to spay or neuter their cats or dogs, own free-roaming cats, or maintain feral cat colonies. Based on what I have read so far in the thread requesting a Birdwatching Forum, I probably wouldn't post at all because it is most obvious that my beliefs differ from those begging for that type of a forum so I'd respect that. I truly believe other members who garden for NA wildlife would respect it too once they figured out the focus and intent. I believe that in areas where English House Sparrows and European Starlings are present that providing habitat for cavity nesting birds without passively and actively managing those two non-native species virtually ensures the death of the cavity nester being "helped" by being offered housing. So for me, I'd have to simply steer clear of that type of a forum because it's going to come down to which feather members want to survive and thrive on their own property when both are present in the same area... the non-native invasives such as the HOSP and the EUST that are still not protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act (presumably for very valid reasons based on the best scientific information currently available) OR native cavity nesters and native songbirds? Although my choice is for native over non-native invasive that may not be the choice of others however my choice is no less valid in my humble opinion and you strike me as the type of person who would understand that. For what it's worth, I enjoy crows and ravens very much and vultures too. Might as well toss in squirrels, moles, chipmunks, and raccoons that many members seem to love to hate these days too. Needless to say, I reserve comment when I run across threads in which people openly boast of destroying any of those species. Those are all species indigenous to NA and they belong here and fill a niche in our fragile ecosystems.

We all protect that which we love and what we love differs from person to person. Does this make sense to you? I wish you all who want this new Birdwatching Forum the best.

I believe that there are ways to provide nesting sites that will allow for successful breeding of [bluebirds, martins, et al.] without actively managing (killing) other birds.

The word "still" doesn't apply because non-native species never were and never will be covered under the MBTA. Birds are not added or removed as is the case with other "lists" of birds, e.g., endangered species. As discussed in the past, if birds made the list for "good behavior", there would be very few species on the list. There are dozens of introduced species of wild birds with populations established in the wild that are not covered by the MBTA because they are not indigenous--house sparrows and starlings being two of them. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm happy to read about your sentiments toward herons, crows, ravens, vultures, squirrels, moles, chipmunks and raccoons... ;-)

When a Bluebirder dispatches (humanely destroys) a HOSP, it dies. When a HOSP kills a bluebird it dies. They both die but the way they die is different. I might not be the smartest wildlife gardener there is, but I do know how to read and do my research. There is a big difference between kill and dispatch, and I don't like it when people try to make other people believe that people trying to protect their bluebirds are killing HOSP, it's just wrong to let people think that. If bluebirders have a lot of HOSP around and don't do something about the HOSP, their bluebirds will be killed. There are only so many holes for all these birds to raise babies in.

As I previously mentioned in the other forum, bird topics can & will appear, whether it is a Bird Forum, Wildlife, or Gardening for Wildlife. As for what will or won't be discussed, I'm guessing ,in the furture , will be out of our hands, as I'm sure Dave will be setting some rules here shortly, considering the circumstances. If there is any indication of what might take place, he has already said he wants it to be kept clean of HOSP & related issues.
I myself find it hard to kill anything and are more apt to find other options, others have a different perspective.
I'am all for a Bird Forum, but do hope that it is a peaceful and enjoyable experience for all.

I find it impossible to kill anything. I also find it difficult to humanely destroy anything. But, if I do nothing over here where I garden and provide feeders and nest boxes given the sheer numbers of English House Sparrows and European Starlings that are present... am I not indirectly killing? For every action there is a reaction. And please know that choosing to not act is an action in and of itself with consequences. We all have the right to conscientiously choose to act or not to act but in doing so we are ultimately doing nothing more than choosing consequences. In my particular situation, if I do not practice passive control of these birds and if I do not allow my husband and other neighbors to practice active control, I am sitting back and choosing the consequence of death for bluebirds, screech owls, wood ducks, and any purple martin that may some day choose to nest and raise young on my property. The choice of which species to protect truly belongs to the individual. If you are lucky enough to live in an area that is not inundated with these non-native invasive species, then you are spared the gut wrenching decision of having to choose consequences. I was not spared that decision. I realize my decision does not sit well with many but the decision of others to do nothing in the presence of these species does not sit well with me. I will not condemn those who choose differently from me but would like to ask for the same consideration from those who choose differently from me. It's horrible to live in an area such as where I live where I had to choose. You have no idea.

I personally believe a Birdwatchers Forum might be overdue so I would be an aye. Birdwatching is a favorite American past time. My bet is it's probably one of the most popular hobbies out there. There are many people of all walks of life who birdwatch who are opposed to hunting and who don’t garden for wildlife who have no interest in controlling, managing, or eradicating invasive species whether it be the Northern Snakehead, the Norway Rat, the Cane Toad, the Mute Swan, the Brown Tree Snake, the Emerald Ash Borer, or either the English House Sparrow or the European Starling. Many birdwatchers even have indoor/outdoor cats and there are some who promote TNR. I don’t think the two mix but as there are so many who do… why shouldn’t such a forum be trialed?. Although it may be challenging at first; a basic Birdwatching Forum could accomplish its intended purpose for the members who requested it if common courtesies were extended from both belief systems. What I mean is maybe an unwritten rule that disallowed any references to hunting as well as to invasive species and a simple request that there be no discussion of conservation, preservation, and restoration of the Earth in that forum as I think we all know where those exchanges would end up? Steering clear of discussing bird rescue as well as endangered or threatened species concerns in such a new forum would probably be a good idea too lest new comers stumble upon that forum who might not share the same beliefs as those who would be posting there.

Again, I would wish you all well because I know you want this new forum very much but I wouldn't feel comfortable over there posting. I can tell you I'd be grateful to anyone who posted photos in a new Birdwatching Forum and that's for sure.

I believe that you are wrong. Cornell University, The Audubon Society, The Purple Martin Conservation Association, The North American Bluebird Society and a whole bunch of other folks believe that you are wrong. Every time we ask you to back up what "you believe" with some facts you run and hide. Back up what "you believe" with something we can see. Better yet, put up some housing for cavity nesting birds and prove it to us. Some of us still work with native birds and provide them for your viewing pleasure.

I see it now. We have a bunch of armchair "bird watchers" who want a nice place to visit, without the possibility of anyone being able to speak for the protection of our native birds from birds imported from other countries. Not one single person who has run a Bluebird trail or hosted Purple Martins is backing this idea. Most of the folks calling for this cyber Shang-Ra-La can't tell a Hawk from an Owl.

pellatory wrote to a "Bluebird expert" and either got what she didn't want to hear or no reply. My guess is that a "Bluebird expert" would suggest lethal control. I'm sure that's why we didn't hear a reply.

betterbloom is in California. Does betterbloom believe that introduced Boa Constrictors and Python be allowed to live and breed in her neighborhood? I believe that a number of Rattlesnakes would find that climate a nice place to live and breed if they don't already. Should all non-native, invasive species be allowed to multiply with no control in betterbloom's neighborhood?

The Mute Swan is introduced and covered by the MBTA. Game birds are not covered by the MBTA, introduced or not. What other species of bird do you refer to? The Eurasian Collared Dove could be one and I suppose you could throw in the Muscovy duck. I hear that we have some Parrots in southern states, but I'm not aware of "dozens" of non-natives and none are invasive other than S&S and feral Pigeons.

I had said over in the Dave's Gardening Forum that I felt it was right to give them their birdwatching forum, but to be completely fair, to also allow a bluebird forum. In the bluebird forum, we could talk more than just bluebirds. I've been at other sites where the bluebird forum is for all indigenous species.

Equil, I have a blue bird house that I'm dying to put up. But with HOSP around, I won't. Not until I can get them either under control or gone, will I ever allow a bluebird to nest here. For me, I just think that's the best thing to do for now.

Terry, I don’t believe we need a Bluebird Forum or a Cavity Nesters Forum because the Gardening For Wildlife Forum was added but maybe a Birdwatching Forum for all the members who want a place to go where they would feel amongst “like minded” members is truly the best idea given the sides polarized? I’m not like minded and practice passive control of English House Sparrows and European Starlings while my husband, like many others, practices active control. We definitely have a low threshold for the existence of stray and feral cats in our yard and I realize that the feral cats trapped here do end up being humanely destroyed by animal control. Another horrible decision. The feral cats or my native herps, small mammals, and birds.

Terry, they gave wildlife gardeners plenty of forums out there to educate as well as to be educated. The discussion of environmental concerns, conservation concerns, preservation concerns, as well as habitat creation and maintenance concerns are openly discussed in Garden Foes as well as in several other forums.

The big stumbling block for a Birdwatching Forum, as noted by stelco, is that mainstream birding/wildlife organizations have begun to openly take a stance. The stance taken is found to be most disturbing to some as it does not define invasive species as being a part of the natural environment and frequently addresses the negative impact of stray and feral cats that many birders “work around” or accommodate in their gardens as well as active control of the very non-native birds (English House Sparrows and European Starlings) some welcome at their feeders and in their nestboxes.

Cornell Ornithology on controlling non-natives
http://www.birds.cornell.edu/birdhouse/resources/non_native

American Birding Association’s Principle of Birding Ethics
http://www.americanbirding.org/abaethics.pdf

Resolution on cats as stated by National Audubon-
http://www.audubon.org/local/cn/98march/nasr.html
National Audubon’s Hot Spots- focus on invasive species
http://www.audubon.org/campaign/invasives/pdf/intro.pdf

Royal Society For the Protection of Bird’s stance against the Ruddy Duck
http://www.rspb.org.uk/policy/species/ruddyduck/rspb_position.asp

Birdlife International’s Pressure, State of the World’s Birds
http://www.birdlife.org/action/science/sowb/pressure/44.html
Response, State of the World’s Birds

It’s probably only natural for those who are uncomfortable with any discussion of these issues to want to purge all references to same from their birdwatching forum in favor of educating those to their belief system at the exclusion of the flip side of the coin just as it's only natural for people who garden for NA wildlife to at least want to be heard. I’m ok with a BIrdwatching Forum as such a forum would be a great place for bird id requests, bird counts, photos galore, as well as fun interactions about the photos taken. I’d definitely go over there to lurk to look at photos with my MIL. We already have discussions of native cavity nesters here in the Gardening For Wildlife forum and protection for same is already referenced there as well as in the Wildlife Forum with more open and candid discussions able to be found in the Garden Foes Forum. We already have Indigenous Plants and our Invasives Forum for cross over issues. It would be nice if the members who want a forum to birdwatch to identify birds by sharing photos could be given a shot at having such a forum. Maybe a test run to see if they could gently nudge new members who may not be aware of the intent of their forum over to Gardening For Wildlife or Garden Foes? Side note- such a forum would not be an appropriate place to discuss West Niles Virus (particularly its spread) or to post a photo of a raptor with its prey as sooner or later a link to a video of an English House Sparrow “cleaning a nestbox” would surface or a cat with a bird in its mouth.

Perhaps we could look at the Pets Forum for inspiration. We rarely, if ever any more, see any of the people who Garden For Wildlife over there shaking cyber fingers at people maintaining feral cat colonies or who post photos of their cats outside in garden settings where bird feeders are present? There's that unwritten rule I mentioned before that you don’t discuss anything that might be found distasteful to those who own free-roaming cats. And, until recently, we rarely if ever saw people shaking cyber fingers at people who do not define a non-native invasive species as being “wildlife” who practice passive and/or active control of invasive species of fauna over in the Gardening For Wildlife Forum or the Garden Foes Forum. It’s that respect thing mentioned by pelletory. I like bbrookrd's suggestions of politely steering people to other forums and threads. Is it not possible that these practices could work in a Birdwatching Forum as well as they have been working in the Garden Foes Forums if the people who would be posting over there would gently police themselves and new subscribers to the site?

I saw a bumper sticker that said "Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way" on a car in front of me driving home from work last night. How ironic. A Birdwatching Forum could be as successful as the Pets Forum and the Garden Foes Forum if subscribers from both sides of the belief system respect when and where to lead, when and where to follow, and when and where to get out of the way.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and it won't work but I for one would like to see it work for the people who want it just as I'd like to see the Gardening For Wildlife Forum work for the people who wanted it.

I've got guests coming in the door.

Happy New Year to all and hoping we are all able to begin focusing on what unites us as opposed to what divides us in the New Year. We all love critters!

Having been in the rehab field, I am no stranger to dying birds. I've had to euthanize many myself. I have read how sparrows and starlings are gleefully shot, etc. "Humane" is a very subjective term. You can use whatever euphemism you like--and it may sound benign and harmless to others, but I know what it means. There is no way for healthy wild birds to be killed without causing them stress and trauma--if not the very same pain you say they are guilty of inflicting upon other birds.

I am not "wrong", Stelco. Those organizations will rarely take an "official" position on such matters, and anyone can write anything. I do not run and hide. Why must you make everything so personal? I have found such sites for you in the past, but it doesn't matter because you will persist in what you believe to be true. "Some of us still work with native birds and provide them for your viewing pleasure." That remark annoys the **** out of me, and exemplifies why I don't wish to converse with you. The statement, "Game birds are not covered by the MBTA, introduced or not.", is another example of your lack of knowledge. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing... and I feel it is most appropriately applied to your writings.

With regard to conservation. I support the removal of threats (including house sparrows and starlings) to native birds only in the rare circumstances when it comes down to literally saving an endangered species in protected habitat--and ONLY if solutions to restoring lost habitat are currently being implemented. This is not the case with bluebirds and purple martins. Do what you will on your property, but you are not saving the species. Only habitat will save the species. Perhaps if you studied the threats to native species a bit more, you'd understand the larger picture.

Well, Stelco, as a matter of I live in a county park, on the river, in the desert. And yes, we do have plenty of rattlesnakes here. Do we kill them, NO, they are taken to the fields and released.

Cornell provides the info, the links, but that is *not* the same as it being their official position. When Audubon speaks of invasives being the leading threat, they are NOT speaking of sparrows and starlings. They are referring primarily to invasive plants. I can provide a litany of links as well, but I am weary right now. And fed up.

As usual magpied, you write a lot and say nothing. Would you like me to prove you wrong again? Never mind, I'll just do it. I'll be back with references that prove what you just wrote is wrong. PLEASE show me whatever it is that I missed. You can just link back to where you posted it for convenience. Oh ya, if you can back up ANYTHING that you just stated it would be appreciated.

betterbloom, would you mind if we add a bunch of Boa Constrictors and Pythons to the mix?

Please stop it, Stelco. An expert wouldn't even frequent these forum with this kind of crap going on in them.

Go ahead, I live in a motorhome. If I don't like my neighbors I can move in 10 minutes.
And send the sparrows also, I'll take them off your hands.

This message was edited Dec 31, 2006 3:48 PM

If I hadn't reached my limit on edits for the day, I'd have changed that to, "This kind of crap is what surely keeps experts out of these forums."

I would agree that no expert would believe what you write, magpied.

Before I dig up those references, I’ll leave you with a bit about YOUR “lack of knowledge”. Since the eastern species of Purple Martin is totally dependent upon man to provide it with housing you would have to create a habitat that existed before 1800 in order for them to survive AND you would have to do it within a couple of years. Please provide any proof that this is not true or you are just plain wrong again.

The Purple Martin is a Species of Special Concern in most states, threatened in others and listed as endangered in others. As you say, “A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing”. You attempt to convince others that what you believe is the truth when it is only in your imagination. I would gladly have an open debate between you and me to end this once and for all. Only published articles from reputable resources would be allowed to base our “opinions” on. I’ll start the thread if you want to go for it. I’ll ask that nobody from either side gets involved. We can exchange our references on cavity nesting birds and then allow the readers to decide who is “right” and who is “wrong”. Bet you say NO. :)

Stelco, I've been very active on DG for about a year now, and for several years prior to that on GardenWeb (before many of us made a mass exodus to DG). I don't provide information for people who address me in such a challenging and demeaning manner. I have nothing to prove to you. Although DG is a big part of my life, I may very well leave it due to your presence.

I guess that means that you know that you are wrong.

Adios.

P.S.
Remember Draco? :)

No. It means what I wrote. Words have meaning. What did you do with all the links I provided earlier in the year? Why rehash it?