Clematis for Shrubs

Elburn, IL(Zone 5a)

At my old house, I had planted a number of Clematis under some Viburnums in my hedgerow. I saw them this summer, and it was an excellent effect, flowers all over V. x rhytidophylloides in late summer. I know David has done this, so I hope he chimes in with suggestions. All others welcome too! I plucked a few favorite picks off an old thread at GW. Not sure if any of these work for shrubs, but they are available from the vendor I will be using, along with many many more. Thanks

Etoile Violette
Purpura Plena Elegans
Betty Corning
Venosa Violacea
Rouguchi
Arabella
Huldine
Princess Diana

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

I have planted a clematis under all my small open bottom trees and shrubs. They look great peaking out of the upper foilage of the tree with their color. Most of mine are ready to reach this next summer will get pictures. It takes a while to get the effect. When I was walking in the mountains 2 summers ago I noticed that all of the native clematis choose a plant to climb so thought I would incorporate this into my garden. Good Idea Kevin!

Bureau County, IL(Zone 5a)

Quoting:
All others welcome too!


The native Clematis viorma is on my wish list to climb one of my viburnums Up to 6' Flower/Fruit: Bell-shaped flowers; feathery golden seed heads. I've got Clematis virginiana on an obelisk, but I'm waiting for it to spread and jump onto a viburnum on the corner of the house.

All of mine are on trellises. Never thought of "underplanting" them. I'd be interested in photos.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

This is the only one that show much. It is a Cornus Alterfolia and has also a cool root the plant has climbed up to the first laterals last year and I expect it to cover the lower laterals next year. I have found that you need to plant them in the bright sun so they can take off. The canopy has a tendency to slow vegetative growth.

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Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

I remember starting a thread back in my old GW days stating that I thought trying to use Clematis in shrubs was an all around bad idea. At the time I was wrestling with a C. texenis "Radar Love" (I think) that was consuming a rhododendron and a young Nyssa sylvatica (and even myself, if I walked past too slowly). David5311 quickly set me straight. Don't want to put words in his mouth, but I can clearly recall the pictures he posted showing the incredible results possible if one smartly selects the proper Clematis hybrids to use.

He converted me in spirit, but not quite yet in practice. I will get around to doing this someday. I hope David chimes in soon. He's been noticeably absent for a while, although these boards in general have been slow lately.

Scott

Bureau County, IL(Zone 5a)

When my old computer crashed, it took most pictures from my old house with it. I've gotten a lot more gray matter in my head since then ;) I had a clematis that grew up and out the top of a weeping cherry. I had the image in my head, but it was far prettier than I'd ever imagined and was commented on by many.

Lower Hudson Valley, NY(Zone 6b)

Been in the process of doing this for the last couple of years. This coming year should really start showing the results. No magic in picking varieties. Look at ultimate size of the clematis vs the size of the shrub. Look at bloom times - you may want them to bloom at the same time, in which case the bloom color takes on a more prominent role - they need to look good together. Others choose to have clematis provide the late season color for an early season blooming shrub, such as viburnum or lilac. Needless to say, the cultural needs of the clematis should not clash with those of the shrub. Here is Hagley Hybrid in Viburnum Mariesii.

Victor

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Centennial, CO(Zone 5b)

I was thinking of trying some early-blooming clematis on a Rose of Sharon. We have several around here, and they rarely bloom before last week in August in this zone. The bare branches earlier in the season might make an interesting armature for a clematis.

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Yes, Kevin, this is a favorite garden composition of mine. The best combo I had was of Clematis 'Prince Charles' growing through Viburnum ' Summer Snowflake' or 'Watanabe'. That combination bloomed more or less on and off all through the growing season with a peak in late June and early July. I will try to post a photo of that combo. I also really liked Clematis 'Mme Jules Correvon' (dark cerise red) growing through a golden mockorange (Philadelphus coronarius 'Aureus'), but it would work equally well with any chartreuse or gold variegated shrub.

There are several keys to success I think. This works best if the clematis is a large (2-5 gallon size) plant when planted, and if it is planted at the same time as a 3-7 gallon viburnum or other host shrub (elders and philadelphus also are excellents hosts). It also works best with group 3 clematis, those that you prune to the ground in winter or spring. Those are going to be the best pairs with Viburnums and most other shrubs anyway. The shrubs will bloom in spring and early summer and the clematis will bloom after that. The other advantage of group 3 clems is that the clematis will not detract from the spring blooming shrub when in full bloom. Group 3 clematis are the easiest to grow and most successful in zone 5 climates. They are summer and fall blooming. Though simultaneous bloom is great, the best advantage is from using the shrubs as scaffolding for the later blooming clems -- neither will detract from the other, and you will get a much longer season of interest from the shrub by getting midsummer clematis bloom. And if you do it right, I think you could pair clem flowers with late season viburnum fruits. I have not yet managed to pull that oiff but I have some ideas.

The other important ting is that the mature size of the clematis be matched to the shrub -- otherwise you run the chance that one plant will swamp the other.
On the list you have, you should know that Betty Corning and Huldine can get to be 15 feet plus tall, and would need a large vigorous shrub or small tree for a good pairing. Venosa Violacea is also pretty vigorous. The others are good for pairing with a 6-8 foot shrub. I will tru too see what pics I can come up with from my old garden which might be of interest.

One last suggestion - water, water, water, and fertilize. The key to getting clematis (and most woodies too I think) established is watering, and some fertilization. Clematis LOVE water just as most woody plants do in the establishment period. And fertilizer helps both but especially the clems which are heavy feeders.

Well, here's one picture I found, C. Perle D'Azur growing on Sambucus Sutherland Gold.

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Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

One other great way to grow clematis with shrubs and large scale perennials is on towers and obelisks. This gives the clematis a root space of its own to get established. As the plants get larger, they will weave and knit themselves into adjacent shrubs and perennials. Clematis 'Blue Boy' (an integrifolia hybrid, and one of the longest blooming z 5 clematis) with neighbors, 2nd year after planting....

This message was edited Dec 28, 2006 3:29 PM

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Fulton, MO

Can this be done with a shrub that gets cut back every year? I'm thinking Cotinus 'Royal Purple' or similar...

Beachwood, OH

Hi David - glad to see you here on DG. I remember a conversation about Princess Diane, Betty Corning and C. ternuta from years ago on GW - boy did I learn a lesson when you posted a pic of Betty Corning. She can be a monster in the right place. I planted a tiny 4" pot of BC and it went to 5' x 3 ' in the first year in the ground - bloomed even after light frosts. It would take a strongly rooted small tree to hold that when its full grown or it will cover and pull the branches down.

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Yes indeed, clematis can be planted with shrubs that are coppiced every year or every other year. In fact, that is one of the best shrub pairings with clems I think. The biggest problem in doing this at all is that the shrub may shade out the clem and provide too much root competition. But if the shrub is cut back every year or two, the clematis will have a good chance to get started growing in the spring before the shrub gets large again. It would be essential to only use group 3 clematis (those which bloom exclusively on new growth) with a cut back shrub, since the clematis will be cut back too. Then both will grow up simultaneously and you won't be cutting back blooming wood on the clematis. When I grew Mme. Jules Correvon on the golden mockorange, I cut both back every couple years to about 2' tall. They both grew up simultaneously and the clematis found its own way up through the shrub to its sunny side with virtually no training or other help from me.

One other point which does work I think -- the traditional wisdom is that you plant the clematis on the north or east side of the shrub so that it will grow through the shrub toward the light on the south and west side. The roots of the clematis will be cooler and more shaded this way. As a general rule I think that does help. However the specifics of the planting situation are more important. I would plant the clematis on the south or west side if the soil and water and availability of 'root space' is better. The other thing which may help is pruning back the shrub above where the clematis is planted, especially if the shrub is established and mature, in order to give the clematis a chance to get going.

I did find my picture of Clemtais 'Prince Charles' growing up through Viburnum p.t. 'Summer Snowflake'

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Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

I have not made vine-growing a practice (having far too many Viburnum to invest my time with)...but if pressed, I'd propose the additional shrub/small tree candidates for partnering with summer-flowering vines like Clematis.

Aesculus pavia and allies
Chionanthus virginicus
Cornus mas
Hamamelis of all species
Ilex decidua
Kolkwitzia amabilis
Ptelea trifoliata
Symplocos paniculata (imagine a large-flowered white clematis with that fruit)
Viburnum x bodnantense 'Dawn'

These are all (relatively) open-architecture plants which have one high season of interest and take up space otherwise, which means they can be a scaffold during the chosen vine's high season.

Plants like the possumhaw holly, witchhazels, cherry dogwoods, and Dawn viburnum have their season of interest in late fall/winter/very early spring, so offer no real competition to any showy ornamental climbing vines.

Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

I like some of your suggestions, John. That Symplocos/Clematis vision is quite tempting. Symplocos gets large, so a strong growing Clematis would be necessary. Same with the fringetree, a species which really can use some late season "dressing up." And Clematis growing through Aesculus pavia sounds like a good way to "paint" it green late in the summer when all its own foliage is long gone.

David, Do you find it difficult to clean things up after the season ends? Or do the vines pull fairly easily out of the shrubbery? I think looking at dried up vines clogging up shrub interiors all winter would make me crazy, or is it not as bad as I imagine?

Scott

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Scott, dead vines don't do a thing for me either (and contrary to popular thinking, I also do not find the winter appearance of 'ornamental' grasses at all ornamental. Let's face it, dead is dead). I prefer to look at the architecture of my deciduous shrubs without all that brown clutter.

That is the reason why group 3 clematis work best in pairing with shrubs, at least for me, and at least in relatively cold climates. All group 3 clematis can be cut to the ground in November, which means you can enjoy the graceful architecture of your witchhazels and pagoda dogwoods without a lot of clutter. It also mean that you can prune any of these shrubs in winter (when I do most of my pruning, with obvious exceptions) without any fear that you are cutting out clematis blooming stems. I do find that it is helpful to prune group 3 clematis growing into woody plants higher abover the ground that you would one growing in the open. That allows them to maintain an adequate height and basilar woody growth that they do not need much training in order to climb into their shrub host.

Also remember that there are no "rules" about pruning clematis -- the plants could care less, and they don't know any better. You just have to understand if they bloom on old or new wood or both. I had a huge sweet autumn clematis (group 3) in my old garden that I only pruned lightly every few years, and never to the ground, but left its woody structure intact up to 6'. It grew and bloomed rampantly into adjacent conifers and shrubs -- just what I wanted -- with very little pruning at all. So with large scaffolding hosts, it may be appropriate to leave most clematis of any kind with little pruning. i.e. do what works for you.

This message was edited Dec 26, 2006 1:10 PM

This message was edited Dec 26, 2006 1:11 PM

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Yes I suppose dead grass is ugly in all of your zone 5 and up areas but stuck here in our zone they are different every day.

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Lower Hudson Valley, NY(Zone 6b)

I second that. Don't know about MI, but here in NY my grasses take on a beautiful golden color and continue their movement in the breeze. They provide seeds for the birds and inspiration for the gardener. They aid in my winter planning since they provide additional markers so I know where I can / can't plant new stuff. And when they stick out of the snow (we've yet to see any so far), they are quite a sight.

Victor

Coldwater, MI(Zone 5b)

I live in Southern Michigan and enjoy O. Grasses in the Winter landscape. Some of them actually hold their form and stand up better when they go dormant in Fall, like P.'Heavy Metal', which tends to be floppy in the growing season but becomes stiff when it dries in the Fall'. Rising out of a group of small shrubs in a bed near my entry, it mantains vertical interest in a predominatly herbaceous garden during the winter when so much is cut down.
Great thread...

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

OK folks, sorry, I did not mean to change this to a thread about the value (or lack thereof, depending on personal taste...l) of ornamental grasses in the winter landscape, from a discussion of combining clematis with shrubs, which is what the thread is about. I should not have made the comment I did above, since what Scott asked me about was clematis vines in shrubs and NOT about grasses. You have to understand 2 things about me. One is that I HATE winter in the upper midwest and long to live in a milder climate. I am a winter Scrooge. For me, plants that DO make a garden in the winter are conifers, broadleaf evergreens and groundcovers, deciduous woody silhouettes, persistent berry producers, hellebores, witchhazels, cyclamen, plants of a real winter garden IMO, and not dead brown things. Of course, that is just my opinion, nothing more, and many people will not agree. That is fine -- to each his/her own tastes. I am entitled to my own opinions, one of which is that, for me, the value of grasses in the winter is overrated. Others may disagree and that's just fine. The other thing to understand about me is that you should not take things I say too seriously. It was a part of my old profile on GW and I should put it in here too.

Just to get back to Scott's question about removing vines, it is easy. Just yank (after you cut the clematis at the woody base), and most shrubs will come completely clean with a few pulls. That's why you use mainly group 3 clematis.

And to answer one of Scott's other questions, namely that of the clematis swamping its host, I too have had that problem. But it is fairly easy to manage too -- just cut off 2/3 of the clematis to give the shrub the upper hand for that season. Keep watering. It may be hard to cut out flowering clematis stems, but the plant will fare just fine anyway and will grow back just as big or bigger the next season.

What you are doing is really managing competition between two plants, so neither overtakes the other. It is not as hard as it might seem, but keep your pruning shears ready if one starts to get the upper hand. And don't plant a 15-20' clematis on a 5' shrub -- that's just not a good match.

This message was edited Dec 27, 2006 11:28 AM

Eau Claire, WI

No need to apologize. I thought your comment on the winter interest of grasses (or lack thereof) was thought provoking and actually caused me to walk outside and take a look at Karl. He's standing proud and disagrees whole heartedly with you. Actually, I'm in the middle as I find o-grasses interesting early in the winter season (especially the first snowfall), but after that it's just another brown,dead plant that makes me long for spring.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

David I too enjoyed the tussell. I am planning on use of your choices this next summer because I am building a 6000 sq ft woodland that has many Hamemelis, Cornus, and parrotia that would love the covering of clematis. Do you know of any that are definatly off the list to climb trees? I am also building a lot of rotted stump pieces in the woodland that will need rather aggressive clematis to cover in the summer. Some of these will be 15' high by 30' diameter. Would a larger amount of clay say 20% with 30% sandy loam, and 50% compost be a good growing media for the clematis. Right now there is only shallow dry (in summer) humus and clay as a base. I am building this winter a sawdust/manure layer over to start the addition of the above ammendments near the stump archetecture.

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Lower Hudson Valley, NY(Zone 6b)

Two of the best for getting big enough to do the job are not for your zone - Autumn Clematis and the early blooming montana varieties. As for drainage - I have a primarily clay soil and never had any problem with clematis. I only amend it slightly, and not all the time at that. They do need lots of water so I would be careful about having soil that is too well draining.

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Sweet Autumn Clematis is fully hardy throughout zone 5 and I would not hesitate trying it in zone 4b, though I don't know about that zone from personal observation. But I would bet that the prospects are good and that if you ask Mike or some of the other people (stuck) in even colder zones than me (sorry Mike....;o)) they would know. It is a rampant grower, covers a big area once established, though I suspect will not be quite as big in colder zones just because the growing season is shorter.

Clematis montana is borderline here at the border of 5b/6a and would definitely not be a plant for 4b.

Most of the larger plants with Clematis viticella in their parentage will be fully hardy for you. The trick then becomes in learning how big they will get -- and I have learned from experience that there ain't no substitute for just that -- your own experience, in your own garden and soil. The species, C. viticella, is a beautiful plant which will grow 20' + tall. It is a lovely plant to grow in small - medium ornamental trees, where its nodding purple bells will grace most trees after they have flowered. You can also bet that none of your neighbors will have it.

One plant I know is zone 4b hardy and is a rampant grower which will tolerate bright shade is C. fargesii 'Summer Snow'. It is similar to sweet autumn clematis, but is a longer summer bloomer, gets 20-30' and can be used to romp across other plants. Most clematis will grow and prosper in high bright shade, and to the extent you can brighten your shade you will have more success with flowering.

Another great groundcover clematis which will romp over tree stumps and large scale perennials and shrubs is Cl x jouiana praecox (aka'Mrs Robert Brydon'). This wonderful plant is a star of the August garden. It will make a foaming froth of pale lavendar blue and white. Plant it among Hydrangea paniculata cultivars (also z 4 hardy of course) for sublime combinations that the plants will create themselves.

I have pictures of all of these stars from my old garden and will try to dig them up if I can find them.

Bureau County, IL(Zone 5a)

From this site: http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/trees/clte.html

Quoting:
Sweet Autumn Clematis is very invasive vine from Japan that is quite showy in bloom. The 5-parted leaves are semi-evergreen; the flowers are very sweetly fragrant. Avoid planting this in your yard -- it will take over. A good substitute is the native Virgin's Bower (C. virginiana), which is similar in looks, but lacks scented flowers


I have had this in IL zone 5a. When it popped up in my neighbors yard, it was time for it to go bu bye.

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

I know that sweet autumn clematis is listed with as a nuisance plant on some state watch lists. You should check locally to see if it is a problem plant in your area. I grew it for 20 years and never saw a single seedling. Some clematis, by contrast, definitely do seed -- notably for me C. tibetana and C. orientalis. The native plant, C. viorna, is somewhat similar but much less showy as a garden plant.

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Here is the species C. viticella growing up a small Oxydendrum, about 12' tall. The combination was about 2 years old at the time, so I don't know exactly how much management would be required in the future. Both actually bloomed at the same time, July, though I do not have pics of both in flower

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Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Close up of the flower. This species seems to have an open airy habit which works well with other plants

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Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Not a close up, but here in a garden setting, C. 'Mme Jules Correvon' growing on Philadelphus coronarius 'Aureus'. Blooms for a month after the mockorange and required no care other than hacking back together every couple of years

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Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

'Petit Faucon' (an excellent very long bloomer) and 'Alionushka' growing on (you guessed it) V. plicatum 'Shoshoni'

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Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Clematis 'Huldine', the best white clematis IMO. Prolific bloomer and extremely vigorous, here growing on an obelisk about 8' tall and covered with flowers for 2 solid months. This would swamp anyshrub smaller than 10' and should be reserved for plants in the 10-15' range and bigger, at least in zone 5. Be aware that clematis often take at least 3 years to really get going, and longer when planted close to a woody plant.

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Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Clematis 'Betty Corning', here growing on an obelisk, shown by my son Matt who is about 5'9" (and my GR Jessie). Betty Corning is a BIG plant and produces 1000s of flowers throughout the season. Got 10' tall and 6-8' across on a 9' obelisk (not 6-8' as the books say). Best reserved for a large woody plant, will easily get 15 - 20', but better on an obelisk.

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Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Closer up of Betty's nodding flowers (with Geranium 'Nimbus', another winner.....)

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Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

Bettie Corning is one of my favorites, no doubt. Which Campanula is that you've got growing under her?

That species V. viticella growing up within that Oxydendron is sublime.

And what is that husky Euphorbia down below left of that "Huldine?" Marvelous.

To weigh in on the grasses debate. "Karl" is just fine in winter, while "Karly" is not. I've got some species Schizochyrium that I cannot remember the name of that is superb, while "The Blues" is hideous. Erianthus is okay. Muhlenbergia capillaris is alright, but any of the Pennisetums blow. I'm so bored with Miscanthus, green or brown, that they are all in the discard pile.

Scott

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Gosh that Scott, he's a sharp eyes. Campanula lactiflora 'Pouffe' (a dwarf of a species that is usually 3-4')

That Euphorbia is E. characias ssp wulfennii. And you might be REALLY impressed with my growing skills if I didn't tell you that euphorbia was actually growing in a container at the front of that border.......since it ain't hardy in Michigan......

One last clematis pairing for now, one of my favorites, and a far too little grown plant, 'Mrs Robert Brydon'. here growing out from behind Hydrangea PG 'Brussels Lace'

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Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

I love the flowers of these two plants together, reminds me of the foamy waves of the seashore. Both bloom together in mid August. Who says that the August garden is dull????

This message was edited Dec 27, 2006 9:42 PM

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You've got some showcase gardens there. That last photo is particularly beautiful.

Ann Arbor, MI(Zone 5b)

Closer up of flowers of Mrs. RB. What they lack in size and beauty of the individual flowers they make up in profusion. One mature plant romps out and through other plants across a 20' circle easily. Does not climb but seems to hoist itself up other plants without smothering anything (however, do not plant next to your species cyclamen collection!!!)


And one last comment on the "grass" issue ---

no, I don't hate OGs, I like many of them. They are stars of the garden from May through November depending on the species, warm vs cold season, etc. But they are used at every McDonalds around here, and so unimaginatively too. They get beaten down pretty fast in snow country. To me they just look depressing in the winter garden. I would rather look at the bark of a mature Stewartia or Mt Laurel foliage or even a bed of myrtle or ivy than most grasses. Or the first flowers of a hellebore or witchhazel, any day. I even like best those grasses which fall apart at frost and barely need cutting down (Spodiopogon sibiricus, one of my favorite grasses). I won't convert anybody to my point of view, I know, and whenever I say this the grass fans always come to the defense of their favorites. As they should.

Just as I would if anybody starts knocking clematis ;o)

This message was edited Dec 27, 2006 9:41 PM

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Lower Hudson Valley, NY(Zone 6b)

David, how much property do you have??! Also, do you buy your clematis from local nurseries or a favorite online source?

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