Planting JM seeds

Hi,
I have a Lanceleaf Japanese Maple that I have gathered seed from this year.
Can anyone tell me how to plant the seeds. Will they come up next spring if I just throw them in a rich compost pile and let them do their thing naturely?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Jane

If you live in an area that gets "winter" and you DO ...you really don't need to follow all the refrigeration stratification techniques...that others do in zones w/o winter.Of course it is faster but if you are NOT in a hurry doing natually outside is fine ..I probably would NOTdo it in a compost pile JM's are not nitrogen "crazy" and you may do more harm than good ...just a well drained area that you can fence off cause rabbits or deer may get 'em next spring. And always remember seeds are not true to the mother tree you will not likely get the same plant and you probably won't know what you get for 4 years or so as it can take that long for it to really sow its form and color...but if you are a Vegas sort of person have plenty of time and space to do experimentation ...go for it ...David

Thanks David..........I am indeed one of those Vegas types you describe and always love to experiment and love the thrill of waiting to see what I end up with............who knows it may be even more spectacular than the mother tree!
Does the red color usually carry thru??

The color will not always or even usually carry through. If you are planting seeds from a grafted plant, say your red linearlobum is on a green palmatum understock, you will see an influence, potentially great, from the understock so that many of the offspring may be green and not linear leafed. Some will resemble the parent tree and many will probably be inbetween, more like a ribbon leaf maple.

If you picked the seeds and they were very dry you might try soaking them in hot tap water (add hot water to the seeds and then let the mix cool to room temp) and hopefully some or all will sink to the bottom. Then take David's advice and sow into a flat, bed, or pots outside and let nature takes its course. Maple seeds do require a period of dormancy exposed to cold or cold stratification to begin to germinate, so winter outside works well. It is often best to pick the seeds from the tree when the wings of the samara are just starting to dry rather than when the entire seed is coating is fully dry or has fallen. There are differing thoughts on this issue. But, maple seeds to not like to become completely dry.

I have been working with some trident maples seeds for almost a year now that a friend sent me in March 06. He had collected them from the ground and put them in a paper bag in the garage over the winter. They were completely dry (obviously some moisture trapped in the seed itself). After two days of soaking only a couple of the hundreds had sunk. I divided them and sowed half into flats and half in the fridge. Of the flats I got 3 seeds to germinate. I just gave those flats a once over and they are now in the greenhouse to see what happens the second year. I also just looked at the baggies in the fridge and of the hundreds in there, there were 3 seeds that had or were putting out root radicles or germinating. So, I sowed all the seeds that had been in the fridge for 9 months into flats in the greenhouse. There were a few dozen more seeds in the fridge that were showing swelling of the nutlet and a change in color--those will go soon.

The deal with seeds is patience. Some are easy and some are not. Some will germinate in the 1st year and others will take 2-3 years and yet others will not germinate at all. I have a friend that harvested some seeds from a variety of pseudoplatanus in August/September and removed the entire seed coating to expose the nutlet and and planted directly in flats. These germinated in 2 weeks or so right off the tree. So, there is lots of experimentation to be done if you have the time and desire.

Cheers.

Wow, I had no idea they could be so difficult. If I want to plant my few coral bark seeds, I should just tuck them into a pot for winter after a good soaking?

Does the heavier seed mean more stored up energy/material and thus better chance of germination?

Laura

Ryuzu,
I'll agree that many of the seedlings may not resemble the grafted parent variety, but I can't buy the part about the rootstock having any influence on the seeds. There's no scientific basis for that claim.
Variety within, say, a population of Bloodgood seedlings, would be no different for seeds from a grafted specimen versus those collected from the same variety on its own roots - unless you allowed shoots from the green rootstock to grow and flower, possibly cross-pollenating the more desirable grafted cultivar.
I can graft various hickories onto pecan rootstock, but the nuts they produce are still hickories - not pecans; and seedlings grown from those nuts will be hickory nuts - and resulting seedlings would be hickories, unless they were pollenated by pecans, in which case the resulting seedlings would be hicans.

I've grown seedlings of selections like Bloodgood, Moonglow, Inaba Shidare, and Waterfall - some come out with dissected foliage - red or green like IS or WF, others with leaves reminiscent of BG or MF - with variable red/purple color - but easily half are just mundane green-leafed M.palmatum seedlings, suitable only for use as rootstocks to be topworked to more desirable varieties.

Hi Ryuzu,
Thanks so much to both you and David for your replies.
I have a couple or maybe three questions. Now try to remember I am a novice gardener to begin with so cut me a little slack and try not to ROTFL too hard.....I just know my questions are gonna show how little I truly know about growing JMs.

1. How do I know if my mother JM was grafted onto another tree? Is there any tale tale signs I could look for to be sure?

2. Some of the seeds were picked when they were green or just beginning to turn and then I got to thinking they probably needed to cure on the tree as long as possible so.......I left the rest on until they were all the way brown.
OK...You said to soak them in hot water and hope some of them sank to the bottom..........why do I want them to sink? Does this show the ones that have more moisture content and thus makes them heavier?
3. Last year I went thru the whole long drawn out stratification process with nothing...not even one to show for it.
Well.....actually I thought I had 6 growing..........but... I really hope you don't remember my most embarrassing post, where I asked you guys on the board if you thought my little seedlings were JM's. I was told they were probably watermelons or something like that...I can't remember exactly what everyone thought they were, but everyone agreed NOT JM's. I felt about 2" tall with that one! lol Come to find out the grandkids had seed grandma's empty flower pot that had been sitting there in the same spot forever with what they thought nothing in it so...........they helped me out and planted their watermelon seeds in it! LOL
Anyway my point being.... if I am following you correctly... I shouldn't of just tossed them out yet and gave them say a couple more years to see if they would eventually sprout. Is this right? No wonder, they are so dang expensive!
Jane

Jane,
Your 'lanceleaf' JM(I'm presuming this is a dissectum type, like Crimson Queen, Inaba Shidare, Waterfall, etc.) is almost certainly grafted onto seedling understock, but I suppose it's possible that it could be a seed-grown dissectum.
You may be able to see a fairly distinct graft union - where the dissected, weeping variety was grafted/budded onto the seedling rootstock. Ideally, for a red/purple-leafed cultivar, they'd choose a red-leafed seedling, to minimize difference in bark color, but not all propagators do that. In many cases, in addition to differences in bark color/texture, the rootstock diameter will be quite a bit larger than the (sometimes) slower-growing grafted variety.

Seeds that sink have a greater likelihood of being viable; and, as Ryuzu correctly noted, some may not germinate for 2-3 years. I've had some pop up 'unexpectedly' in pots that I'd 'given up on a year or two earlier.

Hey Lucky,
I used to work at Dana in Hoptown before I retired.
Thanks so much for your reply........I need all the help and knowledge you guys or gals will share!
Jane

If the tree is older say 10-15 years I would suspect it WASN'T grafted ...none of my older ones were .. including my large 12 year+ old dissectum...I noticed my first grafted jm's about 8 years ago ( around here) and as I have stated in a earlier post thought they were inferior ..see we all are novices at somer point!!! Now grafted jm's have been around for a long time but NOT commercially available K- mart /walmart or bigger places until the last few years around here where I got all my first jm's...I'm sure other places especially the west coast in may have been differnt but this is my experience and you being in KY are not far from here and I would expect similar experinces.
You may see a union where it is grafted a larger bulging area or as stated previously a differnt color root stock .since most use green AP. root stock on everthing including red JM's...but on an older tree, with a low graft it may not be knowable but you can check ( most dissectums are grafted high unfortunatly IMHO ). But whether it is grafted or not you still will never know what you will get with JM seeds...so IMHO it is sort of irrelevant since rootstock may influence the tree but cross polination or whatever can too ...David

Thanks David,
My tree was purchased in 93' at a local K-Mart, so maybe as you say it wasn't grafted. I feel I would of noticed if it was indeed grafted. The trunk is all the same color and texture going up and down the full length of the tree.....so....................who knows.
I wish I had kept the tag....seems like it was called a Fancy Cut-Leaf Red Japanese Maple. Does that sound right? Here's a picture of one of the leaves from this summer, maybe you can tell more from that.
Thanks again for your response.
Jane

Your tree looks a lot like what is, was, or can be sold a Burgundy Lace. There are a number of seedlings that take that name as well and Monrovia was marketing that plant around the time you bought yours and they still do. It has changed over the years, but all the "clones" are similar give or take.

More later.

R.

Thanks Ryuzu.........can't wait to hear more.
Jane

RJ thats funny my large dissectum was purchased around the same time and also called a "cutleaf" ( don't remember exactly but do remember that much) but it is a much finer leafed disectum than yours go figure > I will try to upload a photo... it has bright spring red coloration and brilliant fall glowing red color. It has survived -25 degree weather but tends to loose quite of few branches( mostly smaller ones every year but grows like crazy and refurbishes them so i don't worry much just trim off the dead stuff and let it pop ...David

Some of the "cutleaf" maples that are not dissectums were simply known a Ribbonleaf during that time period. I believe they were of atropurpureum descent but I am not sure they ever had a specific varietal name. They were probably a group of plants with similar leaf characteristics and were very commonly sold as landscape plants. We still see a few around here in nurseries, but that designation has mostly been put to rest.

Here is a couple of pics of grafts...this one is pretty awful!

One more...slightly better. Sometimes they graft a tree of one color onto rootstock of another. I have one of those too.

Hi largosmom,
Thanks for the pictures........they help to understand all this alot easier. So from what I can see.... if my tree was grafted it would most likely be towards the base of the tree that I would notice the possible change in coloring of the bark or a evidence of the graft union........is this right?

Jane

Yes, that is right. The one on my little crimson queen is much more subtle. The one on this larger tree not so subtle, see the kink near the bottom? I wish I had learned to look for a good graft much earlier!

One more for you, this is the crimson queen. It is either grafted very low, blended very well, or not grafted. I will have to check it in the morning and see if it is, the pic is very hard to tell, but I think it was "V" grafted near the bottom.

Laura

I did go look at the crimson queen this morning, and the "V" shape you can see at the bottom of the trunk, about a third of the way up to the first branch, is indeed a graft, and one that isn't too bad..

Laura

Lucky P:
Back to the seedlings here. Not versed enough in nut trees to properly address your analogy and how it relates to what I have said, but in the case of maples it is not the quality of the seed we are concerned about, but instead the resulting foliage and characteristics of the plant. I do know that if you were to graft an varietal sweet orange onto standard sour orange rootstock and then plant seeds from the resulting variety they would not be of the quality of the original variety but would clearly show the influence of the rootstock in the fruit of the resulting offspring.

The point being that is it he rootstock that becomes the seed parent in the grafted plant not the scion. You may not agree, but I have been taught from a very well versed mentor and we may have to disagree on this issue. Maples will reproduce asexually in come cases by forming seeds, they will undergo fertilization from another maple or pollen source and they will also self-pollinate. The latter, Self-pollination is the most common. I have been tought that people in the past who have worked with maples attempting to cross or hybridize them have come to find that a given plant is more likely or will perferentially accept pollen from its own maple flowers rather than cross-pollinate with another maple.

The resulting seedlings from grafted plants will preferentially exhibit the qualities of characteristics of the seed parent over the varietal tree. We do get some seedlings that look similar to the grafted plant, but many will not. Efforts to hybridize are even less successful. Expression of the varietal characteristics will vary from variety to variety, where some will come more true to the named form when grown from seed grafted or not. All the hoopla today about maple hybrids and interspecific hybridizations (palmatum x shirasawanum, etc) is quite unfounded, if we subscribe to the idea that many maples will reject pollen from intraspecies plants let along interspecies hybridization.

All of this is the basis for how a person would go about selecting out a standardized rootstock for example. It would have to be done throught cutting propagation. The cutting being the original seed parent and the one would have to use the process of growing the cutting to produce seed, germinating the seed, and probably taking that process at least through the F2 generation. At that point we could purify the seed line enough to create a standardized understock. We have to ask ourself why there is so much variation in maple seedlings, a species that commonly selfs or self-pollinates, especially when we consider seedlings from grafted plants. The answer cannot leave our the rootstock as the genome of the scion would not be enough to produce such variation. I believe the answer stems from the fact that the genome of Acer palmatum has become so bastardized by repeated grafting that we never know what we will get when we germinate seedlings.

If you subscribe to the bastardization idea, you then have to consider that repeated grafting is changing our varieties over time. The plants get larger, the leaves get bigger, the colors change just a little........Oh yes, I forgot, the genome of the rootstock and scion never mix , so all of this could never happen :-)

I think I am on an island with this one but it makes sense to me and the voices I hear!

Cheers!
R.

"The answer cannot leave our rootstock as the genome of the scion would not be enough to produce such variation"? I'm not following R. Could you put your theory a little more simply for me. I'm struggling to understand....

In regards to the sentence you selected, a poorly written one at that, was trying to point out that japanese maples seedlings germinate with a wide degree of variation, especially when the seeds are taken from a grafted plant or when the parent plant producing the seeds results a long line of grafted plants.

Since I tend to agree that a maple is more likely to self-pollinate thant to cross-pollinate a sufficient explanation for the variation in seed morphology is that the genome of the rootstock is being expressed in the seeds produced by the grafted scion. Again, it is not the fruit that is the issue, but the characteristics of the plant.

The second part of the sentence is that if it was only the genome of the grafted scion that was expressed in the seedlings we would expect a much great percentage of seeds that look like the scion. Instead we have many instances where this does not happen. I would suspect that there are some plants or varieties that have a more dominant genome so that when we takes seeds from them the influence of the rootstock is less visible.

I think the prevailing thought is that the genome of the rootstock has little or no effect. I think it also states that maples will hybridize more frequently than they do. And even further out there is that it is not just the growth habits of the rootstock that effect the grafted variety but that there are means by which the genome of the rootstock can actually effect the characteristics of the plant. I believe that the latter is subtle, but by repeated grafting over time, varieties are indeed changed and altered from how they were originally slected.

I hope that is more clear--I learned much of this without much knowledge of plant physiology and biology and I am just now beginning to study that aspect of it to a greater degree. Sometimes it is hard for me to articulate what I am trying to say, thus the long responses. You can decide if it makes sense to you.

Cheers!

Thanks R. I once heard a Japanese Maple specialist say that seedlings were like snowflakes. No two alike. And I hadn't thought about it, but it would make sense that seedlings grown from seed taken from the same tree would be consistent given that they are self-pollinated. And they aren't consistent. Very interesting. Is this what you mean? So the root stalk somehow affects the genetics of the seed?

The seeds from my trees usually end up as squirrel food. I wouldn't think that a maple seed would have enough going for it that the squirrels would bother with it but there you go. I know that's random. Many of the seeds that are left germinate but I don't know the yield since they are self-sowing.

rainyjane, You may wish to consider reading chapter 4, pages 82-84, of J.D. Vertrees' JAPANESE MAPLES. You should be able to find this book in your library, or the library lending program in your state. He writes in an easily understood, detailed way. He was perhaps the most respected author, writing in English, for japanese maple enthusiasts. You may be interested in knowing that he documented seeds from the same collection taking up to 5 years to germinate. Don't plant too deeply, and be patient! lol For your info, we're all novices in one way or another. The beauty of this site is that all of us can learn. Ooops, the edition to which I'm referring is the third edition, edited by Peter Gregory.

J.D. Did most of his work with seedlings rather than grafting, although he did do some grafting. I think this makes him a pretty good athority on that subject and any of his texts are pretty much unchaned with regard to seedlings. It is a shame that he never wrote more about that subject and the cultural care and behavior of the plants. I think that trying to properly name and classify the plants was a big enough job. As the story goes he was infatuated with maple seedlings, their variability and the potential they held. In many cases friends of his and peers did much of the grafting for JD while he dovoted himself to the seedlings. I think what he writes in the 1st and 2nd ed. is pretty much unchaged with regard maples in the first part of the book. Gregory mostly edited the cultivar or variety section and the Appendix C where new plants are discussed with regard to taxonomy and characteristics.
I am guessing that the new texts due out by Gregory will be a focused reference for varieties and taxonomy rather than a more broad discussion of the plant itself. With so many variables playing a role in how to grow the plants, it is often hard to write a focused discussion about that where it will apply to many readers. In any case a new photo reference is always welcome and I look forward to the Gregory texts when they come out, which should happen in the near future and be offered in multiple volumes.

Cheers!

I understand your theory, Ryuzu, but would like to see more data supporting it.

I thought that all cultivars that were not species, were hybrids. If colors, leaf shapes and sizes in maples is a complex set of genes, then hybridizing those genes across cultivars would seem to create all sorts of potential "children". The complexity grows with each gene involved. If we had a gene for red, and one for green, plus one for dissected versus palmate shaped leaves, we get four possible genes, which when you do the math is around 20 different combinations. Add another gene, and you get nearly a hundred possible combinations, and so on. Hybridizing would involve selecting a particular combination and combining it with other desirable characteristics over and over until you have a set of dominant characteristics that you want. I would blame the variability of seedlings to the subtle blend of possible genes before I would assume that genomes would mix between the graft and the "graftee" (sorry, unfamiliar with the proper terms). I would not be surprised to hear that fruit can be effected more subtly, as flavor and such can be affected by chemical processes, not just by genes. The process of grafting may lead to chemical flavoring working its way through the plant's system from the rootstock to the grafted part. If graft after graft is grown from a parent plant, there may be a subsequent loss of energy that is used by the plant in the grafting process that may never be regained.

Or not....regardless, there are a lot of variables involved and this is an interesting discussion.

Laura

Hi Everyone,
I have a few pictures of my JM that I would like to ask any of you to look at and tell me if you can tell if it is grafted. I would greatly appreciate any help.

One more question I have..........in the reply from Ryuzu he was telling about soaking the seeds in hot tap water and seeing if any sink..........I done this and all but only a very few sank......so this is at least good..........right?

Jane

The other side.

Full view of my JM.
I am editing this to say........the tree is not as tall as the picture makes it appear to be......maybe 10-15'. I can not reach the top and I am 5'2.

This message was edited Dec 15, 2006 10:02 AM

I sure can't tell RJ but being that it forked out so low and it didn't sucker or rot I'd bet NO. It looks like , if it were planted, even with a low graft, it would be planted TOO low and the graft would be under ground. This could couse alot of suckering and/ or "trunk ball" moisture rot .But your plant aside from some OLD mower hits and /or freeze/frost damage looks great a nice naturally branched tree. So my purely guessed opinion is that it is not a grafted tree...from what I can see. David

Thanks David,
That's amazing David...how you could tell what the lawnmower hits were............that was my doing.......you know how some of us women drivers are!!! I weed wacked it a couple of times as well. My poor ole tree has had a rough way to go... with me being the caregiver.

OK..........what about the seeds. Was it a good sign that all but a few sank?

Jane

The sinking of the seeds is a good thing. It can mean three things: 1) the seeds are well formed and structurally sound in that they have been fertilized or are not "duds" or empty "blanks" 2) they are not yet greatly dehydrated. Maples seeds are of the type that they lose limited moisture before they lost their viability. They prefer to be completely hydrated for best germination. The more they dry or dehydrate the less viability they have or the longer it will take to germinate 3) if the seeds first float then sink, it can mean they have absorbed moisture into the seed itself. This can trigger the germination process. It can also mean the the outter coat of the seed has hydrated. Either way, the seed has to take on water or be fully hydrated before it germinates.

To foucus on the answer to your question: it is usually better that they sink, but seeds that float will germinate also. Some at the same rate as those that sink, some will take longer, and some will not germinate at all. As far as lack of germination, maple trees are notorious for producing seeds far in excess of those that will germinate. It is not uncommon for maples to have poor germination rates, but that varies from plant to plant and species to species.

I would agree with David that you have a seedling maple, but I do see just a little variability in the lower bark and it may be the reminants of a graft. Over time, the soil level can rise to obscure a graft that was originally planted higher than it appears now. I'll lean toward seedling.

R.

I'm not an experrt (disclaimer), but I grow JM's from seed and have a mentor who helps guide me - your tree is not a grafted tree. Where I see most grafted JM's is in the growing of dwarf JM's. Your tree is not a dwarf - well, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. I have many dwarf JM's that are grafted. The seed discussion is interesting - I try the seed thing because of the great variability. Final disclaimer - I'm not a pro - I'm an old retired guy who is going to garden 'til I'm in the ground. Love the discussion.

Yes you are correct most dwarfs are grafted but some are from cuttings especially those used for Bonzai since the trunk is "nicer" W/O graft showing ...But NO,you are wrong on her tree... that conversly because RJ's is NOTa dwarf therefore it is NOT grafted( It isn't IMHO but not cause it isn't a dwarf) ...MOST JM's available of NAMED varieties are in fact grafted ... generic "red or green" Japanese maples or JM's just called lace leaf or cut leaf etc probably arn't. Grafting is the current perferred and most commonly used method of propagating all NAMED cultivars...dwarf or uprights or dissectums.

Now one more thing that Ryuzu may know concernes the refrigeration process... I know folks that have warned about fruits giving off chemicals that thwart growth in scions used in grafting and keeping them seperate from fruits....which I suppose is true??? But it may also pertainant in the germination in seeds . The scuttlebutt is you should keep your scion seperate from fruit . I don't know if seeds would be the same but I'd guess so ...and I don't know if just keeping the seeds in a seperate vegitable drawer sans fruits would be enough or in a frige sans fruits period ... R should know this but I am not sure and others should be aware if it does in fact have an effect???? cause most of us keep fruits in varias areas of our fridges...David

This message was edited Dec 15, 2006 3:58 PM

This message was edited Dec 15, 2006 4:01 PM

......hi there old retired guy...........please meet........old retired lady......... who also plans to garden till she's in the ground. Maybe we will meet in a heavenly garden surrounded by beautiful flowers and JM's!

To everyone who has so kindly replied to my questions...........I just want to say a very big Thank-You to,
David
R
Laura - thanks for all the great pics.
LuckyP
Doss
I hope I haven't left anyone out!
I have learned so much..........you guys & gals are great and know your stuff.
Keep the discussion going I love it and learn something with each post!

RJ

It's a great thread. Thank you.

If this helps, this is a high graft on a dwarf tree.

peony01.............please forgive me for not including you name in the "Thanks to all list". I guess I thought... since I started out my post to you...... I had also included your id name in the Thank-You list as well.
This was not intentional, so sorry.

I also would like to ask anyone who would be kind enough to reply.........how deep should I plant the seeds and about how far apart. I have decided to plant them in the ground in a fenced off protected area....... that I will mark as my JM garden.
Couple of more questions...since this is going to be their permanent location for as long as it takes to see if they grow, should it be a sunny location or part sun?
Should I lightly mulch? i thought about making garden rows (just as you would to plant rows of corn or whatever) and use newspaper between the rows to help with the weed and grass control. Good idea or bad?

Jane

Sorry,R.
We'll have to disagree, as there's no scientific basis for your theory. There's no way that rootstock can make any genetic contribution to seeds produced by a grafted scion. The rootstock contributes anchorage, support, and provides water & nutrients to the grafted scion, but NO genetic contribution.
Your analogy to the citrus may not hold water, as the difference in fruit quality in those sweet orange seedlings could be due to whether or not the fruiting parent was nucellular or zygotic - zygotic seedlings would be the result of cross-pollenation, and would, indeed be different from the ortet, but nucellular seedlings are exact clones(though they'd have to grow through the upright, thorny juvenile stage) of the ortet. In either event, it would make no difference whether sour orange, trifoliate, etc. was used as a rootstock. Now, I will concede that rootstock CAN have an influence, in some cases, on fruit size, sweetness, etc. of the grafted variety - but not on the genotype of seeds produced by the grafted scion

Grafting is a form of cloning, and the seeds and seedlings produced by by a grafted Bloodgood would be no different from those produced by an own-root bloodgood.