Has anyone planted a small "grove"?

Hi, I have an area on my garden plan that was intended to receive a weeping cherry tree, which has an eventual height/width in the 40 foot range after many years. My hubby is not a big fan of this tree idea, and I am looking at other options. I live on a corner of a cul-de-sac from the 1950s, with ranch and colonial style homes. My property is between .3 and .5 acres and I have several large oaks already on it. The main road is divided, and planted with very nice pink crepe myrtles that are over 25 feet tall, and holly trees. I'll try to get a picture of the area in the morning, but I think it is helpful to get the context.

The side of the lot on this street is where I'll be focusing my attention next spring. It is planned to get a long, serpentine planting bed, covering the center of the side lot, extending the length of it, but eventually having a fence dividing it in half at the back of the house. I'll be focusing on the end of that bed at the front corner of the house next year...the back yard portion will be done later after renovations on the house are completed.

I'm considering a couple of options for the corner of this lot, which will get a lot of attention by people driving by. First option is to put in 2-3 crepe myrtles, to mimic the trees in the median of the street. I would plant them as a small grove, and choose either different varieties, or all the same. I am also considering whether or not I can do the same with 2 to 3 japanese maples. This area gets a fair amount of sun, and I already have more than one tree out there, including my coral bark, which could become part of my little "grove", if included at one end of it. I have in my mind's eye a bonsai-like grove, of trees with trunks and structure highly visible lower on the tree, and leaves above. I would be interested in a variety of early spring or fall color, but look for similar basic shapes, and summer color. I would want trees that would average around 20 feet tall with a canopy not more than that. The planting bed at that end would be a lazy, long, "S" shape, and it is on the E-W axis of the property, so it gets a fair amount of sun, but does get some shade from the oaks and the house at certain times/seasons.

Any comments, or ideas? Pros and cons of such an arrangement?

Trees I will have available that I have in pots currently (but which could go elsewhere in the landscape) are Acer palmatum 'Mizuho Beni', and 'Bloodgood'. The latter is only about 18" tall at the moment, while 'Mizuho Beni' is 2-3 ft tall.

Laura

I did find one pic from mid-day in July, looking from the back yard toward the front. You can just see the coral bark on the righ side. On the left next to the house is my Kagiri Nishiki, which has a red fall color. Coral bark, is yellow to orange in fall. This does not show quite the whole lot.

Here is the Kagiri Nishiki today, looking back in the other direction. I'll be renovating that bed along the house in the spring, as well.

Appreciate your thoughts. Will try to post better pics tomorrow evening.

Laura

Here is a picture of the side yard from the front of the street. I've shaded in the approximate location of the beds in a gray shade. The lighter color lines show where a fenceline will likely be.

And here is from the back yard facing the front, same idea with the colors. I hope to have a garden gate along the path that is Japanese in style or at least with an arched arbor. The "grove" would be visible over the top of the fenceline, to the right of the gate.

By the way, after viewing these pics, I am now positive my little crimson queen will need to be relocated. You can just barely see it next to the white planter at the edge of the current pathway. Eventually, the pathway will have 4ft posts with rope handrails between them to assist my visually impaired hubby with getting around. I may move that little tree to the front corner of the house just visible on the left of this picture, with a short retaining wall about 2ft tall, which will raise it up to a nice viewing height. I have a japanese snowball viburnum there at the moment that is a bit leggy and large and which can be relocated elsewhere in the yard.

Thanks for your help!

Laura

No ideas?

I would do different varieties for sure like you said with mostly green leaved ones for the upper story of the grouping. Like you said get some for spring colors and most have great fall colors anyways, but I would use their spring and fall colors as a guide for placing the upright maples. I would add weeping or mounding ones in-between and closer to the edges of the beds maybe with some boulders (if you already have some in other areas of your yard) adjacent to them. Then you can add some conifers like dwarf pines and chameocyparis and cryptomeria in the bed also. Of course some rhododendrons and azaleas would be nice also.

I definitely like the idea of a grove of maples and I have been buying several green seedling japanese maples to select the ones I like for a smaller grove in my own yard.

Also, if you are going to be breaking up the bed with the fence anyways, I would make the planting area shown on the right hand side of the last picture bigger so you can incorporate maybe a tree in that corner of the fence and some room for under-planting with other maples or conifers.

Just figured I would give you a response since it has been a little slow here. I'm not a designer by any stretch of the word though.

Willis

I even more than Willis am having a hard time visualizing your proposed areas since they are SO baren of anything!!... If it were me i would till up the area (s), mulch it and delineate them with block of some sort ...maybe even put in some small stuff like Willis recommended ...then your minds eye should be able to get around it better ...at least mine would . I do think a mixed planting of A FEW jms of differnt types sizes and colors placed properly with other companion stuff would look nice ...as for a "forest" i probably would NOT go that route for the same reason that I am not a big fan of using them as a hedge row either. Yes it can be done ...but I think it would be a bit excessive and not look right and is an expensive thing that will NOT properly showcase your individual trees...Now thats just my opinion and gut feeling period!! nothing is etched in stone thats for sure others may have differnt and valid opinions.David

This is the left half of my landscaping plan, took awhile to chop it up and scan it in. Hope this helps with visualization. I don't know if it will be readable after uploading, but you can get the general idea.

The planting bed shapes I would like to keep the same (or close). The tree in the bottom left of the plan was going to be a weeping cherry, but this spot through the JM above it (existing Sangu Kaku coral bark) was where I was going to put this group of trees. Against the house in that bed is the existing Nishiki Kagiri JM. My thoughts were to move the crimson queen to the corner by the garage/driveway in place of the snowball bush.

Laura

Are the big trees staying? I assume that they are.

I would do a Suminagashi or a Sherwood Flame rather than a Bloodgood any day if a red tree is what you want. The Suminagahi holds it color particularly well throughout the summer and blazes in the spring and fall. Both of these take more sun than the Bloodgood. They can take full sun here without burning. They are similar to the size of the Bloodgood. They would look good with the Sango Kaku also, especially in the springtime when the Sango Kaku puts out it's bright light green leaves.

It would be worth the investment to get one or both of these rather than the bloodgood - although the bloodgood might be good as contrast as it stays a dark/purple red.

It is hard to visualize, particularly with the fence being there. But here is a group of Chinese Pistache that are growing on a street near here and if you could give the JM's the same sort of space, they would look just as spectacular in the fall.

I think that it's what you are trying to get at. Yes?

Yes, a small section with that sort of layout is what I am after. The large oaks will be staying that are on that side of the house. I am not particular on red versus green JMs, do reds do better in the sun? I am more worried about eventual size, and would not want to go over a bit more than 20 feet in that location. I will look up the varieties you named. I am also not against a small grove of identical type trees, such as Koto No Ito, or something with nice structure. I will be underplanting, as you can see in the diagram. Other varieties I have seen and liked were Villa Tarantino (sp?), Scolopendrifolium in green (I hear it also comes in a red), Oregon Sunset, Geisha, oh, and the fern leaf varieties...oh, there are bunches!

Thanks for your thoughts. I will probably put them in next year, either spring or fall, so that I can take care of any needed changes in the plantings due to the new arrangement. I think I can fit at least three more trees below and to the right of the Sango Kaku, in the portion of the bed shaped a bit like a foot. Their branches will probably intertwine as they get older, so the colors and leaf styles should blend well.

Off to go check out those cultivars!

Laura

Yes, red trees in general are happier in sun. Villa Taranto, Germaine's Gyration can both be put in full sun though and have an eventual height over 10 years of about 10 feet. Neither one of them has a spectacular fall. Villa Taranto grows like a bush. Koto No Ito won't take full sun unfortunately but would be happy with some afternoon sun. I'm moving mine into a little more sun this year and am a little worried. Koto no Ito will get to about 9 feet but gets as wide in time. Don't believe them when they tell you it's an 'upright' tree.

Here's Koto No Ito in fall. One problem with Koto No Ito is that you need to take it's dead leaves off of it yourself. Otherwise they stay on the tree and are apt to produce mold. It's a tree that's well worth it but thought that I'd point that out.

Well, we have all winter to discuss what will work or not, lol! I am so glad I asked, though. Maybe Koto No Ito is not the right tree for me, despite its beauty. Can you keep posting pics of yours? :-D



I was going through the acers in the plant files last night and noticed you also have a fern leaf JM, what are your experiences with that cultivar? So many choices!

Laura

The A. Japonicum Aconitifolium is perhaps one of my favorite trees.
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/58180/index.html
Here's a photo of the Koto no Ito in April. I do think that it's worth the effort. Aconitifolium tends to hold onto it's leaves also. I've kept mine about 8 feet but it's constant pruning.

Hi all, I am still considering whether or not this idea of mine for planting 3-4 trees in generally the same area is a good one or not. I went by my favorite local nursery for JMs to look at winter structure and talked about this to their resident expert and he was stumped by this idea. He thought it was not a good one, and that I should space the trees 10 to 15 feet apart rather than let their upper branches grow near to or into one another.

I also looked at a Katsura tree they had that is another type of tree I was considering...nice brown bark and a gazillion trunks, it seemed to me. I don't think this is the cultivar I was hoping for, but at least got an idea of bark coloring on a younger tree.

If I go with a single tree, I may go ahead with a reddish one that will echo my 'Omureyama' on the other corner of my lot. I am hoping to see some of the varieties suggested up close next year before I make up my mind.

Does anyone else have JMs planted closer together on their landscape in the larger sizes? I've seen pictures of the shorter mounding forms planted together, but not so much of the larger ones.

Laura

Laura - here are two planted so they run into each other. I will measure the distance between them. Each tree is about 12 feet tall, one is multitrunked and the other has been kept so that instead of a single trunk it has become branched very low. I'll try to get out and measure the distance between them but I'll bet that it's at least 14 feet. They are both seedlings and they have been in the ground about 20 years.

Laura, take a look at this thread over on GW. This photo of botann's driveway in Seattle is a selection of seedling japanese maples that he choose for their colors, if I remember correctly. I think as a backdrop for other plants, a grove of upright maples would be great. Check out his photo site's link which is further down the thread.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/maple/msg1013042812130.html?7

Willis

I think those look beautiful together. If they are 12 feet tall, then 14 feet looks about right for the distance apart looking at your picture. That is about the size I had in mind, and the lot is 150 feet long on the long side of the drawing. In the "foot" shaped bed at the bottom left, the circle in the ball of the "foot" is what was supposed to be the weeping cherry and marks a 40 foot circle. The Sango Kaku is in the "heel". I think I could fit a larger maple in the "ball" of the foot, and one a bit smaller in the "toe", and another smaller in the "arch".

I was considering using Aconitifolium in the larger "ball of the foot" position, a weeping shape in the toe, maybe Oshu Shidare, and then another red in the "arch" between Sangu Kaku and the larger tree--maybe Oregon Sunset.

Still working on this, though.

Laura

Laura first of all the Kasura is not necessarily a multi trunked tree as most Jm's arn't unless they are grown that way so that shouldn't come into play although the Katsura is a fragil sort and unless you live in perfect jm country I wouldn't recommend it...any really cold weather especially in spring will kaput it it buds VERY early!!!
Also keep in mind Doss has only two trees interlocking ...that look really cool btw... the other GW pic is a lined drive with a bunch of differnt stuff that takes up maybe 25 feet or more on both sides....not what you are proposing I don't think???!!!
If I were you I would do areas NOT fence rows ( maybe thats what you are doing I can't remember and haven't reread all the posts!!) I would only do a couple of uprights ( like Doss did) combined with some mounding dissectums unless it's a corner area ... I have some photos I will post of a corner area I did with mostly bloods' it looks cool but it was done for sceeen purposes...I also have two bloods' with multi trunks in back of my water garden waterfall it also looks cool...but planting differnt types of tall upright JM's I personally don't feel is a great idea and think a mix of sizes and habit is best like a couple of tall uprights ...a couple of semi dwarfs and several mounding dissectums as understudies....David ( hopefully I am not covering already covered ideas this thread has been bantered about for quite some time;>) David

Laura, if you are looking at a Katsura tree, Cercidiphyllum, those turn into full sized trees. Very nice trees and often used in smaller spaces, but eventually it will outgrow it. I was planning on using one before I saw how big they get. They are even occasionally used as street trees where I work (most being planted in the 70s).

My photo example, like David says, is a very deep and awesome planting. I was just using it as an example of the maples forming a backdrop to other plants.

David, I eagerly await your pics.


Willis

The other photo is awesome! It was the Cercidiphyllum I was considering. I should have been more specific that it wasn't the J.M. 'Katsura'. The one I saw at the nursery was an upright tree, but I am told there is a weeping variety. If it gets that large, though, it is probably out of the question. David, I am definitely not considering planting in straight lines. If you look at the drawing I scanned in above, you will see that this is the lower portion of the drawing.

By the time I am done, I will have 4-5 trees there, hopefully in the 15 to 20 foot range in height, in a soft zig zag.

Laura

Those photos have given me an idea Willis. I have an old mugho pine that is to the right of the two maples in the photo. Perhaps I'll take it out and put in a dwarf red cultivar. That could be really fun. The Mugho has been sort of murdered by a "well-meaning" gardener. Ouch!

All Katsuras get large except one called Heronwoods Globe, I think. That is the dwarf version, but it might be hard to find one large enough to use for immediate impact. Maybe ask on the Tree & Shrub forum about Katsuras and see how fast they may grow and if that allows their use or not.

Willis

Yeah Doss, those photos give me lots of ideas too. Too bad money, time, space, and hardiness keep gett'n in the way.

Willis

I love the texture and color of the evergreens in among those JM's but it sure looks like it's getting croweded fast. The only limitation I don't have is the hardiness. But it ends up all the same. Makes the space problem a whole lot worse.

Yes Doss...I think it looks a bit crowded too... that would be my only negative comment and one we all fall victum too ...planting TOO MUCH... it can give an overall good look but individual stuff tends to get lost and you see it as a Monet painting rather than specimen planting ...not that there is anything essentially wrong with that... but I personally want my JM's to stand out a bit more and have sparcely planted around them and will add as they age and i know what will best "present" them...Todd plants pretty thick but it doesn't look crowded like that GW pic he tends to plant smaller stuff and companion stuff around his Jm's and they always look "parkside" IMHO...
Oh BTW I thought since we were talkin' jm's you ment A.p. Katsura ...sorry ... also #1 what are the dimensions of your planting area #2 how far apart or these large trees #3 is the non jm's included in your 4-5 larger trees or is that just your jm's.... I looked at your drawing but it is hard to make out specifics...David

Todd's plants do look wonderful. I've been very attached to the iris as they bloom in December but I'm thinking that they look pretty sad the rest of the year. It's a place that needs some attention.

The lot is 150 feet long down the long edge, and that is along the street. The setback line along the edge is 8 feet, and the circle scribed in the lower "ball of the foot" is 40 feet across. That was meant to show the canopy of a weeping cherry, which is what the original design called for.

The largest trees on that side of the house are the mature oaks toward the halfway point and the upper left of the drawing. You will see these two in the photo showing the street sign post. The sun sets along the front of the house, which the driveway so there is some afternoon shade from the home and the big oaks.

Whatever I place there will get a lot of attention, as there is a fair amount of street traffic in the mornings and eveneings, so I want it to set a stage for a beautiful garden that is the visible face for this older house. Opposite the driveway shown in the drawing is a retaining wall and more shady space under a pair of oaks that dominate our front yard at the moment.

Laura

Doss I love iris too ...we had some peach ones that were from an old aunts place that were REALLY neat and differnt unlike any I had ever seen ANYWHERE but I think they have now become extinct...they become weed ridden especially with creeping charley around here and need constant seperation ...even worse than lilies as far as weeds and seperation...and really they are not much account after they bloom just kind of ugly whereas lilies are like talll grasses and seem to be ok and actually help planted areas ...even those lilies that don't bloom long look descent throughout the growing season. Of course many ...most flowers are like that but tulips etc just die back ...don't become an eyesore ..and peonies as a plant are not bad ...or as they call them around here pie-onies (Hick speak)...I have panted tree peonies and dwarf hydrangeas in my JM plantings and they look great so far...most of my JM planted areas are weed barriered fabric ( 15 year) and cedar mulched on top with palntings throughout very differnt than Todds...mainly as I have said before cause I just can't control my "wild' areas. Da wife likes the wild areas but since she has NO inclination to control them I have pretty much deep sixed them ... and we are still married b'gosh ;>) David

here's a pick of the corner area bg's and atros and a special maple TBA ...not a great pic all are about 12 years old

Heres the two multi trunked grafted BG's by pond form back of pond about 10years old... I feel these ARE BG's not sure about others ...both this and other pic taken this fall David

David, the look in the trunks and lower branches of those two trees at the bottom is sort of what I am after, Doss's are a bit older, of course but also share the look...only fuller!

Laura

Laura:
I saw something similar to what I think you're looking for in a big raised bed in the middle of an office complex several years ago, and have never gotten it out of my head. They had about 7 trees together, with moss and a three large rocks underneath. It was gorgeous!

Ever since, I have been wanting to do a small "grove" of Japanese maples in the corner of my back yard. I already have one lovely full-grown green one that is next to the fence, and my plan is to put 2 more to form a triangle. I don't want to line it up with the fence, as I want it to look more natural, so I have to put it all down on paper to get the angles right.

I have a pretty good-sized potted red one in my front courtyard that I plan to put in the ground, and I just bought a teeny "vitifolium" that will eventually form the third leg of the triangle.

I think your idea sounds marvelouus, and if you decide to go ahead with it, we can compare notes!~
Janet

Thanks Janet, glad to hear I am not alone in this craziness! Hubby thinks it will be too much shade...I'm thinking, more hostas!

Laura

I think that those iris are just something that I was attached to that didn't do enough for the landscape - thanks for all of the ideas. Seeing that photo of mine and the other photos just reminded me that I need to do some landscaping there. I'll have to go out and take a few more photos to get a better idea. The iris need to be divided anyway. There is a lot of root competition there but some mondo grass would be happy. Part of the problem is that I don't water against the trees so I'll have to look at my irrigation system. We don't get any summer rains - that's why they call it the 'Golden' gate. Everything is brown.

I think that Laura's idea is exciting and I can't wait to see how it turns out.

One of the things I love about JMs is that the shade isn't so "deep". It's more filtered. Sadly, no hostas for me, though. Snail-bait!

That is a good point, and one reason why I'm planning to put my more sun-friendly hostas in that garden bed. Luckily, there are some lovely eye-catching ones to choose from.

Laura