seed head to leave for the birds?

Will birds use these if I leave them? They are all frosted now.
marigold
zinnia
salvia Coral Nymph/hummingbird sage
garlic chives

'Howdy, sallyg ..

Tis recommended to (plant) and LEAVE any of those species whose seed heads contain seeds during the winter!

I'd think, that should (any of those you've mentioned above) have, or, are forming seed heads at this time - jes mite be best to leave 'em; especially up north there! (hee) Birds will seek to visit these plants as they would in the wild and search out those seeds.

Another lil note ..

Hey Sally,

Doing a little fall cleaning before the holidays hit? Me too.

Some birds consume some seeds of some Marigolds in fall. It would depend on which Marigold you planted and if you can give me the Latin name, I might now if you have a species worth leaving. Zinnias are more of a butterfly lure. The butterflies are gone from Maryland by now so if you want to remove those, it's safe to do so. 'Coral Nymph' is a Salvia coccinea cultivar. The straight species attracts bees, butterflies, and hummingbirds so you don't need to leave the 'Coral Nymph' cultivar as your hummingbirds are long gone and won't be back until next spring. Garlic chives you definitely don't need to leave for the birds. They produce chemicals when cells are damaged by chewing, crushing, or cutting. You and me may like the resulting taste but the birds don't. In general, birds steer clear of onions, leeks, shallots, and garlic because of what is referred to as reaction products. Garlic has the highest concentrations of reaction products. These chemical compounds that are produced when cells are damaged are believed to be the plant's defense mechanism against hungry critters looking for a meal.

If you have any spent zinnia, marigold, etc. of which the seeds are available .. please, consider leaving them for the various birds to reap any possible benefit ..

Found these web sites .. which may lend some more info to you:

> http://somdthisisliving.somd.com/vol5num4/feeding_birds.html

> http://www.wildbirds.com/attract_plants.htm

Some winter rarities in Maryland > http://www.mdbirds.org/birds/mdbirds/seasonal/winter.html

- Magpye

Zinnias are native to Mexico and Central America, they are predominantly valued as nectaring plants as they are annuals up here which is why I stated they were more of a butterfly lure. Hummingbirds are attracted to Zinnia nectar which is available when in bloom as well as Silvery Checkerspot, Little Glasswing, Painted Lady, and Cloudless Sulphur butterflies. There are probably a few other species that are sustained by Zinnia nectar. I truly don’t believe there are any birds interested in spent Zinnia blooms. I hate to say this but what’s left on the plants at this time of year is probably chaff not seed. Zinnia seed is quite variable in color and people frequently confuse the chaff for seed. Goldfinches would have torn the sepals apart to eat the seed a while ago before it was probably even dry. Finches like the seed very much indeed... so much so that many gardeners trying to collect it for themselves are reduced to netting it. Simply stated, I think it's the wrong time of year for that plant as it's well past its prime if it has already been exposed to a frost and the butterflies and hummers are long gone. Depending on the Marigold species, there may be some seeds left that can help sustain birds.

Interesting links. Bachelor Buttons (Centaurea cyanus), Forget-Me-Not (Myosotis sylvatica), English Ivy (Hedera Helix), and Butterfly Bush (Buddleia davidii) haven't been being recommended by the mainstream NA birding and NA wildlife organizations for quite a while because they are deemed to have a negative impact on the very species we are attempting to attract to our backyards.

http://www.sierraclub.org/sustainable_consumption/articles/garden.asp
http://www.audubon.org/bird/at_home/Plants.html
http://www.nwf.org/backyard/food.cfm
http://www.enature.com/native_invasive/natives_wildlifegardening.asp
http://www.for-wild.org/land/nbirdscaping.html
The Nature Conservancy should also have some good recommendations-
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/maryland/

Whew, Equil ..
Bet it makes ya question natures' decisions - a lot! .. LOL

Sally ..
Jes hopin' that some of the info & the web sites posted, will be beneficial to you.
Keep warm & take care. And please remind old man winter about the ol hillbilly woman that's ready for some of that white stuff, down this way. Gotta good start on the firewood and I'm anxious for winter! (& my apologies to you, for it maybe lookin' like I shook a seedhead that I shouldn't've)

((huggs))

- Magpye

thanks you both for your generous info! It's late hre now, but I will get into that as soonas I have some time. Like monday, when I'm s'posed to be cleaning my house!!shh , don't tell on me.....
Yes I was out cleaning up. Had to wait for frost to start setting up a big compost. been frustrated not having much to do out there.
I'll see if I can find the marigold packet...........
oops, beingcalled for bedtime reading........gotta go......

Naa, I don't question Ma Nature's decisions but I do question some of man's decisions.

Magpye, haven't you ever tried to germinate chaff before and felt like a complete idiot once you learned there was no seed left? I certainly have felt like a complete idiot trying to grow chaff as have others as a direct result of birds stripping plants clean of actual seed. I wish I could say I've only tried to germinate chaff once or twice but unfortunately I've done it quite a few times particularly with species I haven't worked with before. It's quite frustrating waiting around for chaff to germinate but it's laughable when a gardening friend comes over to look at your neatly labeled seed trays of dreams and zooms in on a particular tray and points and asks with a big smirk on their face, "Whatcha think you're growing in there". Live and learn. For what it's worth, I've also lovingly cold stratified chaff and have had gardening friends pull apart my damp paper towels to get a peek if anything is sprouting in my ziplocks only to see them reduced to fits of giggles because of birds. Chaff happens.

Take a look at this photo. There is seed in it. This is a classic example of a seed that often doesn't germinate because people don't know what part of the mix is seed and should be planted and what isn't.

Oops, typing when sallyg was typing.

My compost pile has grown considerably since the first frost. It's that time of year to clean up and get ready for the holidays while you can still go outside without a parka. I've been tossing spent annuals into the composter left and right as well as a few perennial flops.

meawhile, six pages of shel silverstein later....
the zinnias, didn't look like they had much in, so now I know why. The garlic chives- not at all surprised that they aren't popular, judgiing by the way it self sows. If I had a nickel for every time I walked by it in the last two months, saying 'I really ought to cut those heads off"...
I had a lot o f annual black eyed susan, which I don't try to deadhead. when it starts to die off I do bunch those stems and cram them into a small tomato cage for the seed heads to be presented to birds. those look pretty stripped by now. Common mullein stems are propped out there,,altho they may be stripped by now too.
I would have sunflowers and perennials blackeyed susans, if not for my local groundhog.
Do you grow any particular flowers/grass for seed for birds?

Where the Sidewalk ends? The Giving Tree? I know he has written other high quality children's publications but those are the only two we have. Been there done the Shel Silverstein bedtime routine before and I've got a big smile on my face remembering those days which weren't all that long ago.

Are you asking me or Magpye which particular plants are being grown for the birds? If you are asking me, pretty much everything I propagate or purchase is for native birds or native critters. I donate a lot of plant material that I germinate specifically to not for profit organizations trying to create wildlife habitat. I also germinate seed for a few personal friends who struggle with native grasses, sedges, and rushes but they skim off of trays of other species that I germinated for myself which doesn't bother me at all. I started about 300 different species of native seed for birds as well as other critters last season and had about a 98% success rate so I'm feeling pumped to start all over again this winter. Are there any birds in particular you are looking to entice over to your property or just native feathered friends in general? Sunflowers are great for kids to start. Who is the birder at your house? You, your husband, or all of you? Over here it is my husband but my girlfriend Lisa who is also a member here at DG is a birder and comes over and sits at my kitchen table with her binnoculars and rattles off species visiting here. We've really got quite a diverse crowd here these days since I began planting specifically for them.

Hey, groundhogs have to eat too!

Sally!! Don't leave the garlic chives!!! Oh my goodness, before you know it they will have taken over your whole flower bed!! NO NO NO!!!!! Sorry, I'm not yelling, but if I had a nickel for everybody who said to me they left the chives for our feathered friends only to then have to hear them complain about all the sprouts........Please don't leave the garlic chives. The other ones, I have no clue on, I don't grow them.......and I don't grow garlic chives anymore as all my perennials are now native.

E- Where the Sidewalk Ends. I got one with a CD of him reading several poems, it's good. the giving tree tears me up(both pronuciations of tear )
Well with 300 species, I wouldn't know where to start. Do you have a few favorite plants that are winter food sources to birds that you feel more people should be using? In the last few years I've gotten more interested in the native plants. I don't have the time to devote to large scale landscape changes , but expect I will make small changes every year toward a more wildlife sustaining yard. For example, I have a big viburnum that bears very few berries, so I think I'll cut it down to make room for something with more fruit.
I'm the birder, must say beginner. Lately I've heard white throated sparrow, and nuthatch, along with the common feeder birds, and know I have kinglets too. I guess I'd like to cater to them, if possible. Summer adds goldfinches, GC flycatcher, oriole.

terryr- hear you loud and clear!! I usually cut all the GC flowers as they start to fade, they are hands-down the WORST selfsower I have. But I had two clumps out back with nice tall stems, and I decided to leave them to ripen becausethey make , I think, an interesting dried flower. Then when I saw they were opening up I thought I'd add them to my question. So I'm glad for E's detailed info that I can dump those buggers with no guilt, into the garbage. one of the very few carbon-based things I can do that with. Yes, keep spreading the word, I like it's August bloom, but anyone considering growing it should take a vow to keep those seeds up or they will pay dearly.

What kind of viburnum do you have? You might just need another clone to get the one you have to set more berries. Here's a website I found for Maryland and native plants http://www.americannativeplants.net/

terry r beings up a good point about your Viburnum, sallyg. ViburnumValley and Decumbent have many posts on the "Trees and Shrubs" forum about needing two Viburnums of the same family but different cultivars (I think I'm correctly using those terms) to get good fruit production. It seems a shame to get rid of a mature plant if the reason fruiting isn't good is because you need a cross-pollinator. The fruit is striking in appearance and enticing to birds. Take a look at some of Decumbent's pictures of the fruit. I think the posts were early September.

and everything I ever learned about viburnums was from VV.........ask and he shall answer.........

Decumbent helped me ID my Viburnum, and I believe it's an opulum americanum or trilobum. I sure would keep it if I could get fruit w/ another. good excuse to have two Vs instead of only one. Thanks you so much for the input.
I found some threads on crosspollination. Thanks. I think I understand what I need now.

This message was edited Nov 6, 2006 3:34 PM

And Sally, if you don't understand which one will be the best, just post the question and they'll answer you. You'll really get their attention by asking about cross pollination in your subject line. Kevin_5 is another really great one at answering all those viburnum questions.

The Giving Tree got to me too but I loved it.

As far as plants for the biggest bang, hmmmmmmmmm... so many plants... so little time and money.

Since you will be making small changes every year, you might want to consider contacting someone from this organization-
http://www.mdflora.org/chapters/chapters.html
It's ok to be totally blunt with these people. Share your game plan with them and that you want to take baby steps toward a more wildlife sustaining yard. They would totally understand if you told them that you do not "have the time to devote to large scale landscape changes" and additionally, they know all too well that we don't have money trees out back.

I'd start with some native grasses and native sedges along a strip (maybe a strip of 3'-4' x 12'-18' or so) somewhere on your property. If you like what you create and what is attracted to your strip, you could always expand it in the future. Native grasses and native sedges are great for holding up native prairie plants which are beautiful in their own right. The mere introduction of such a strip of landscaping to your property in and of itself will bring many fine feathered friends to your property to strip the seed. I went online and found a neat little link here that might give you some ideas for Maryland.
http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/dep/greenman/grasses.pdf#search='maryland%20native%20grasses'
Although this link gets a little technical, you might want to read pages 55 and 56. Nice overall presented there which I think you might enjoy reading. After you read those pages, then scroll back up to the index and see if anything else tickles your fancy in the 350+ page document.

To your little strip, you might want to consider adding a few of those nice tall prairie plants. A little something to whet your appetite here-
http://www.americannativeplants.net/
and here-
http://www.adkinsarboretum.org/native.html
scroll down to their links hyperlink and click on it and lots of goodies there.

Maryland has an extensive Natural Heritage Program-
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/nhpintro.asp
Throughout the site, you will find references to plants that will give you the biggest bang for the space they occupy.

Out the gate, I'd suggest you consider a little love buddy for your lonesome Viburnum. Viburnum trilobum and Viburnum opulus var. americanum are the same plant I believe. Your wonderful little American Cranberry Bush would love to be cross pollinated with a species that has an overlapping bloom time. Since that plant is monoecious, I'd look to purchase a named clone say V. trilobum 'Wentworth' or V. trilobum 'Phillips'. The 'Wentworth' should be pretty easy to get your hands on via mail order but the 'Phillips' is going to be a little bit more difficult. 'Phillips' is a dwarf selection and if you could get your hands on two of the to flank your straight species, you might like the look of that. Now, I'm new to Viburnums so best to go check my information with ViburnumValley or Kevin_5 as both of them are la Crème de la Crème in the arena of Viburnum and I have no doubt that if you d-mailed either one of them that they would get back to you with a great cross pollinator for your American Cranberry Bush.

From there, I'd add my favorite fruiting staples (and nuts are considered a fruit too)-
New Jersey Tea (Ceanothus americanus)
American Hazelnut (Corylus americana)
Ninebark (Physocarpus opulifolius)
Red Elderberry (Sambucus racemosa)
a native Dogwood (Cornus alternifolia, C americana, or C recemosa)

And toss in a nice native honeysuckle (Lonicera sempervirens) and just one Red Mulberry (Morus rubra)
for good measure.

Hope this helps.

Lauren

Lauren~~
Thanks so much for giving your time and expertise. It is a big question. Everything you named, except elderberry, will be new to me. I copied your message to a file so I can refer to it in the future and use long term. You've provided a very nice reference for any MD gardener going native.
Sally

Really sorry Sally, I just re-read my post and forgot the link to where I suggested you read pages 55 and 56. Here it is-
http://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps12575/www.nhq.nrcs.usda.gov/bcs/pmc/eng/symp99proceed.pdf#search='maryland%20native%20grasses'
That's the link that gets a little technical. Often times it's difficult for me to read some of that mumbo jumbo and I feel as if the writings are ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics but you will pick up bits and pieces if you give it a try and over time, more of the pieces of the puzzle will begin to fit together for you in your little corner of the world.

Please consider borrowing "Noah's Garden" by Sara Stein from your library. I think it might be right up your alley.

Also too, please get a hold of VV or K_5, they've both forgotten more than I will ever know about Viburnum. And, don't be surprised if V V renames you. He does that a lot.

Thanks again, E. I hadn't noticed the omission. "we're " homefor elections here, so I just came down to do some reading on the links you gave. I will check with VV on the vib pollinator. I have read a lot of his recent posts.

Yup, I'm home right now too. I just voted. Long lines.

You know, I totally forgot to post this link for you. I think you will be in heaven when you open up the website.

http://www.nps.gov/plants/pubs/nativesMD/info.htm

That site kind of goes up and down so you might want to save what you can from it to your hard drive if it interests you.

Hi Sally--Equil flagged me down to come over to this thread. I didn't see the thread where you got the ID for your Viburnum. Just to make sure, does it flower

like this

http://www.missouriplants.com/Whiteopp/Viburnum_opulus_snowball_page.html

or like this

http://www.uwgb.edu/BIODIVERSITY/herbarium/shrubs/vibtri_flowers01.jpg

The snowball types are sterile, so nothing you can do about fruit. If the flowers look like the lower link, you are good to go. You just need another fertile clone(that is, NOT one that flowers like link #1) to get the fruit producing benefits of cross pollination. Anything from the V. sargentii, V. opulus, and V. trilobum group will work. If you are sticking with natives, V. trilobum seedlings or any of the clones should work for you. V. trilobum 'Redwing' is a nice one, as is 'Bailey's Compact'. Other cultivars are good as well, but taxonomy is confused on many as to whether it is true V. trilobum or crossed with the European. Some of the dwarf types are sterile, even with lacecap flowers.

If your current plant does fine for you, as in flowering well and looking decent throughout the season(we have leaf spot problems here), then by all means find a pollinator. You will be amply rewarded with fruit that lasts late into winter, getting eaten when not much else is available.

Thanks, Kevin(and Equil)
It's not the snowball, for sure the second one. My bush thanks you too. It's big and healthy looking . Until someone hailed me about the crosspollination, I thought it was just bad genes. I copied your names so I can start looking.

Oh good, I was on the right track.

There ya go, one love buddy for your lonesome Viburnum from me and many from Kevin.

Just out of curiosity, where is the link to the plant you wanted identified?

Kevin, is V. trilobum ''Phillips' sterile?

New skill needed- Idon't know how to put a link in here to get you right to that thread. It's now on page 4 of Tressand Sghrubs-sorry, my fingers are cold from being out i the raintossing some more old stuff in hte compost~~~and it was "I thought I had cranberry bush viburnum." however, I never atatched a picture. If you're still curious I'll get some today ortomorrow. I even spotted a lone little late cluster of buds today; we have somemild weather coming, maybe it can rush into bloom.

Is this the thread sally? http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/665229/

You just go up to the address bar when you have the page you want, right click it so it's all highlighted, the little box thing drops down and you click on copy. Come back to where you want to put it and inside this box, right click again and click on paste. It will be hyperlinked when you've posted. I hope this helps! psssstt.............didn't I tell you Kevin would be a good one too?

Trying that--- Equil, are you readingthis? http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/668442/

terryr-thanks for the techniqueAND extra thanks for chiming in with the cross-pollinater alert. I was totally unaware of that issue w/ viburnum.

No that's too funny Sally! I was just reading that thread (Pruning a Viburnum dentatum) and popped back over here!

Also I have found so few nursery people who understand that viburnums need a cross pollinator. So I might buy one and then come back here to find out which one I need to cross pollinate. I also printed out a thread VV and Kevin had going a few years back over at GW and take it with me if I remember. The nursery people don't like it when I question them.

And you're welcome!

Your hyperlink goes to a thread on Pruning a Viburnum dentatum. Is maybe that the thread you want me to look at? Are you related to luna_baby?

Lauren, hit my link. It takes you to Sally's post.

OK, no photo of her plant there but Scott posted a photo of one of his plants. I don't know what to think without having a few photos. I'm sort of a visual person and even then I need to be ale to download pics to my desktop to be able to enlarge the images so I can see them before even trying to take a shot at identifying something.

terryr- small world??? there's another conversation about the same bushes , where she originally asked about them, mid atlantic maybe? I'm getting confused~~

E_ i only know luna by way of mid atlantic forum. (I mentioned it because of the renaming thing you had just mentioned)

Here you go. I got some good photos. The wholething, about 8' by 8'

OH!

closeups

tiny out of season buds

a typical berry 'cluster' Flower heads have the tiny in center and showy around edge, not snowball. Is this what they call lacecap? There are tall trees to north and east, but it gets a lot of sun and light. Turns yellow very late in fall.

The leaves on my trilobums differ somewhat from this plant. The berries are red on my plant but the stems to the drupes were also red.

Here's a so so photo I took of trilobum leaves-
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/87491/

I'll take a shot at this and say I think you've got the European Cranberry Bush (Viburnum opulus).