Neem Oil

Anyone know if it is possible to get hold of Neem oil for horticultural use in Europe?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4916044.stm

I would love to try this alternative to manufactured spray chems.

I found this site it might help a little.
the Neem oild is near the bottom.

http://www.seedman.com/pest.htm

Speak soon

Mike

Cheers Mike! There is a good thread going on over in Organics forum with lots fo useful info on neem.

Liz I did find some sites selling it here, but not for horticultural use. It seems there are regulations because it's classed as a pesticide,

http://www.neemgenie.co.uk/

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/approvals.asp?id=1355

http://www.drhauschka.co.uk/neem-oil.php

http://www.worldwideshoppingmall.co.uk/body-soul/shelves/bioforce-neem-care.asp

http://www.neemco.co.uk/neemtree

http://www.bitefree.co.uk/eureka_neemtree.html

The last one is quoted in euros and dollars as well as pounds. I don't know if an insecticide could be used for plants.

Janet, trust you, you little ferret!!!!! What time did you finally get yerself off to bed last night?

So you can plaster it over your face but not on your pot plants!!!! Hey ho! There are quite a few sites selling it for cosmetics and skin complaints.

Thanks alot for the links - I'll get on those right away!

What I don't quite understand is that if it is classed as a pesticide then why can't we buy it as such from a garden center - there are plenty of pesticides that we can buy which are much more toxic than neem. As I understand it this product acts in a very different way to most pesticides and merits a place on the shelf.

Hey Lizzie, Got an idea!! Don't buy any, I'll send you a sample!! You use 2cc to 1 litre so This HUGE bottle of mine will go a long way!! Whats your address?? If it works for you I'll send you a full bottle!

I'll D-mail you - don't go away!!!!

biscombe, where did you get it from???

Liz I haven't seen it as a pesticide but there may be a source, it could be the costs of licensing and the cost of the product itself that limits it's favourability. I imagine the big chemical companies would want to keep selling what they already have on the market too, likely at a higher profit.

The last link has a natural product it says: Natural Neem Tree contains only top quality essential oils with no "deet", citronella, or alcohol.

If I wanted it as an insect repellant that sounds the best, what essential oils there are and how they would affect a plant I don't know, it could clog the pores.

Hi to all:
Never wrote in this forum before.
In Spain - and I guess in other countries also -, neem oil can be bought in what are known as grow-centers, related with marihuana issues.
Here are a pair of links (in spanish) but you can find a lot more in Internet
http://www.naturcannabis.com/aceite-de-neem.htm
http://www.lahuertadejuanvaldes.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=638&PHPSESSID=62dd71d423c29a542d6e3c34d2d12635

Regards

Carlos

Hola Carlos!!!!

Yes I have seen it on these site too but the amount they are selling is only up to 50ml and at a cost of 6 - 10 euros. I was looking for un litro!!!!!! Thanks for the info though.

Saludos
Lizzy

Chemicals lovely chemicals!

To sell Chems in England they need to be licensed by Maff. This is very costly to the company and time consuming, also once licensed the tests are repeated every year and can be revoked.
Most of the time new pesticides are sold into the profesional side as the retail side is not cost effective as the license is harder to get.
Most chems on the shelves in garden centre are so weak they are of little use. (i don't mean watered down) The general public are stupid with chemicals and have to be protected from themselves.
I was asked for some Benalate by a chap yesterday, that was banned over 10 years ago he said he'd just finished his off. Does he really think it would work properly after being stored in the greenhouse for 10 years!
There are really only half a dozen companies making chemicals for the retail industry now as every year a bigger list is taken off the market.
Recently Jeyes fluid and Armillatox had there licenses taken off. But they are still for sale in garden centres. Many newspapers reported (wrongly) that they had been banned. They can still be sold with exactly the same formula but the packaging says they are outdoor cleaners and not fungicides like before!

So I'm guessing Neem oil is not comercially viable as you can't patent the product so its not worth one company getting a Maff license to sell it.

It may work better than any man made product but legally you can't sell it for that purpose untill it is licensed.

Hope that clears it up

Mike

Well I guess we hard nosed gardeners will have to source from outside UK. I have found two stockists in Spain.

One product is called Bio-Neem and it is imported from USA and the other is packaged in Spain under the name of Naturgarden Antilarvas (Thanks to Biscombe in Granada). They are both oils sold for horticultural use.

Anyone UK based interested (strictly non-commercial) - d-mail me.

You should still be able to buy it in the uk just it might be sold as something else here, or for another use.
And legally over here unless it has a Maff license you can't tell someone it is a pesticide.

Thinking about it if anyone wants to go into business.. It could be sold like garlic pesticides are sold then it shouldn't need maff licensing. Not sure the great british public would pay the price though as the majority that buy pesticides want something toxic sounding or strong. Lol
The more enviromentally friendly folks that want a natural solution tend to think like us here and research products only to find it can be bought cheaper some where or you can produce it at home.

Stupid english rules! Lol

Some in the post :-) Hope it works for you!!

Thanks Biscombe. You have d-mail.

For any people still interested in this topic (hmmm)...

I wrote the the HDRA to ask why Neem is not available in the UK for gardeners and this was their reply:

Dear Elizabeth,
Thankyou for your enquiry regarding neem oil use in the UK and Europe.
Unfortunately we do not know of any official outlets in Europe. There are
three main reasons why neem oil is not used as a pesticide extensively in
the UK:

1) Pest and Safety Directorate Regulations
The main reason that neem along with other organic pesticide products are
not more widely available in the UK is that they are not registered with
the Pesticide and Safety Directorate (PSD). Getting them registered is a
very expensive process and if the product is to be used predominantly in
the organic market, which is still relatively small, it is simply not
economic for them to do so. Many products sold get around this by selling
them as 'plant stimulants' or fertilisers. Even though everybody knows
that it is being sold as a pesticide they get around the PSD leglisation
by calling it something else!

2)It is broad spectrum
Neem is a particularly effective natural pesticide with low mammalian
toxicity and quick to biodegrade especially in sunlight. However, it is
pretty broad spectrum and will kill beneficial predatory insects as well
as target pests. Therefore most certifying bodies (eg. Soil Association,
Organic Farmers and Growers) will only grant permission to use neem
under derogation (ie the farmer/grower needs to state their case for using it
before being granted permission).

3) It is expensive
Any formulations presently sold are expensive and probably only make
economic sense to use in high value crops e.g. pot plants in glasshouses.
In most cases there are more cost effective and species specfic options
available such as biological control.

I hope that this information is useful to you. Please could you fill in and
return our feedback form as this helps us to improve our service. Thankyou.

Please do contact us if you have any further questions.

Best wishes
Dawn Stallard

Hi Lizzy,

Looks like i was on the right lines. Nice to hear the reasons from the horses mouth. So to speak!

You Organic guys need to enlarge the following and win the lottery.

I am never surprised at the endles stream of customers i have that tell me their organic so don't use chemicals. ( i fear alot of people don't want to spend money on gardening hide behind the organic banner and won't put there money where there ideals are!)
Its unfortunate but the way of the world.

Have fun

Mike

It would be fine for house or under cover products where beneficial insects are not harmed, although in greenhouses you do get insects.

We should consider the beneficial insects, without those there would be more trouble from insects which carry viruses. People used to and still do think that using washing up liquid on plants to kill greenfly was/is safe, but it is not, it has a similar effect to neem oil.

Liz that was interesting, and you got an answer!

Oh believe me, I am never backwards in spending money on gardening. Isn't it one of the fastest growing sectors in the UK ? I find that people don't mind forking out a bit of money for products they believe in.

I think the Neem thing is down to getting the word about. If people knew about it maybe the market would emerge and the high cost to get the license would be less of an obstacle.

I was typing while you were Janet.

I agree with you about the beneficial insects and we must be aware of everything we do in our environment. I still think there is a place for this product but like every other product out there we have to use judgement. One thing I do approve of it that it is very short lived and and provided we are not spraying the countryside with it, it has to be better then anything which leaves behind toxic residues.

I totally agree with that last post Lizzy. If it doesn't hang around then it has to be good.

The Uk gardening sector is being mis-reported The figures are altered by the goods sold within garden outlets and also the inclusion of figures classed as gardening from the multiples like tesco and B&Q's. (they have seen a recent down turn) The true garden sector is shrinking. But on the upside its not all bad, alot of the true garden sector isn't green and fully sustainable anyway.

The license still isn't the problem. the problem is who would be willing to pay for it?

We need to find a way for a company to make money out of this, any ideas anyone?

Mike

Here is a site that was showing at Glee this year.

It means there may be hightened interest in this product.

First they need to create demand then competition once thats there every one will be using cheap neem oil products.

http://www.mistrys.eu/

Someone has just passed me a 250 ml bottle of Neem oil Azadirachta indica A.Juss. from Essentially Oils Ltd., Mount Farm, Churchill, Oxon, OX7 6NP, Tel: 01608 659544, www.essentiallyoils.com

Another use is that is supposed to be good for psoriasis (the skin condition, not a new pest!)

It smells rather pungent so I should imagine it would keep pests away just by the smell.

Its easier to get a license for chemicals to put on people than it is to put on your plants. Strange world we live in!

Thanks for that Pat. Are you going to try it in the greenhouse?

I thought I might try it as an insecticide, but it is so thick I think I may have to experiment at getting a sprayable consistency. A suspension in water may work - if it doesn't clog the sprayer. I'll have to "surf the net" to see if there is any advice on this.

I think it depends on the particular product you buy. Some already have an emulsifyer mixed in and it is just diluted 3ml:1lt of water but yours might need some soap (not detergent) to spread the oil. Apart from that there's little to it.

Thanks Lizzy, I'll give it a try on the aphids on one of my parsley plants in the greenhouse and if it works without killing the plant I can try it on the others. On second thoughts I had better try it on the pansies as I won't be eating them!

Poor pansies.... like lab rats! Lol

As far as I am aware - neem is perfectly safe for humans when used properly - it appears to work in a very different way to chemical pesticides as it upsets leaf munching insects' breeding when leaves are ingested. It will not kill off an infestation immediately - not like a pesticide - more like a long-term prevention programme. This is not a knock-em dead product. Good luck.

That's interesting Lizzie, although I would think the smell would be a deterrent on its own.

So..................... If i eat Lettuce then spray this on i won't be making any more babies? Or does it just upset my stamina? Lol

A bit like Viagra gone wrong!