Winter planning what's my Zone?

Forgive me if I am asking a recurring question, but I don't know for certain how to identify our Zone. I thought we were 8b, but I see people living in Tacoma identifying their zones as 8a, or even 7. The USDA Zone Finder places us in 7, but the Western Garden book says it's 8b. We are fairly close to the water here -- can't see it, but can walk about a mile and get to it. What's the definitive source for the Dave's Garden forums? What do you use to determine your zone?

Since I'm pretty new to gardening (took it up this past summer), I want to do everything necessary to make sure my plants survive the winter. Two that I am concerned about are my fairly sizable Persian Shields (Strobilanthes Dyeriana) which are planted in the ground, and my hardy banana (Musa Basjoo) which is planted in a large container on wheels. I've taken cuttings from the Persian Shield, and am presently trying to figure out the process of rooting them in case the large plants don't make it. The banana is a mystery to me, though.

I also have a couple of Bronze New Zealand Flax (Phormium tenax atropurpureum) in fairly large ceramic pots on my deck, that concern me. How do you know whether a plant (or ceramic pot) is suitable for outdoor wintering?

There's lots of info on these plants, but little that seems to identify how they fare specifically in the PNW.

shultman, yes, you are in 8b. I've seen z9a plants not far from you. You will probably be best to lift the Persian shields as they are not reliably hardy to the best of my knowledge. The Musa basjoo should be wrapped in a few weeks after the first frost (around Halloween). Here is a little write-up on winter protecting your banana on my friends nursery site: http://www.tropic.ca/K-L-M-N/Musa%20Basjoo%20Winter%20Protection.htt

The Phormium should be ok unless we get a very cold-snap at which point you can move them into the garage or shed for a short time. The Cannas should be allowed to dry-out, lifted and stored in a dry-cool place. A little mulch (fallen leaves) can go a long way in providing protection for new plants by keeping the hard frosts away from tender roots and the growing point.

By "lift", I assume you mean dig up the Persian Shields and Canna? Can that be done without damaging the plants? And with the rainy season approaching, how the heck do I "dry-out" the Cannas? I feel so ignorant...I got it all planted, and nicely arranged, but have very little knowledge of how to keep it that way.

The banana wrap is interesting. I thought it was a snowman with a black hat on first glance. :>) Mine is in a large container. I assume I could still wrap it up this way, though, right?

Yes, lift means to remove from the soil. The Persian Shield can be potted up and grown like an indoor plant unless someone else here knows better. The Cannas seem to be in pots so let them dry out under an overhang and then remove the corms from the soil. Keep them dry and watch for any rot. Replant in the spring. Don't feel ignorant - you're asking and that's not ignorant. I feel the same about fixing my vintage truck and asking the experienced ones online.

I'd advise to plant your banana in the ground in the late spring. Give it a very organic/compost mix and some slow-release fertilizer and alot of room to grow. They do better in the ground. If it gets really cold this winter, take it inside.

Yes, you're right ... some of my Cannas are potted. However, my largest one (didn't show up in the pictures as it was too small at the time) is a group of plants over 5' tall, and growing in my front yard. Should I be digging them up, too, even though they can't be dried out first? I read elsewhere that it was possible to simply cut the Canna back to ground level, mulch, and overwinter that way. Because of that, I hadn't worried too much about the Cannas. Perhaps this isn't true in our zone, though.

I'll consider how to plant the banana tree next spring for sure. I think I could figure out a decent place for it in the garden. In a pinch, I could definitely bring it into my kitchen/dining area, which is just off the deck where it lives. Wouldn't be much room left in the dining area, but it could work for the short term.

Looks like I'd best find some big pots for my Persian Shields...they are all three about 3' x 3' plants!

Given the mild winter being predicted, I'll probably wind up overdoing it on the winter prep stuff, but better overworked than sorry :>)

I just leave my cannas in place (in the ground, but in a bed that has a sidewalk on one side and the garage on the other). They continue to multiply and always do well (so far, that is!!!).

well shultman, if Murmur can leave her cannas in place in 7a, that means you should have no problem in 8b. See how it works? I'm learning to grow here too and I use the experienced gardeners successes as a gauge to what I can get away with. The zones posted under their locations are so helpful!

Definitely lift your persian shields. They are too beautiful to lose! I leave my cannas in the ground, but make sure they have a nice blankie of mulch covering them.
Murmer brings up the excellent point of 'microclimates'. This means that though you may actually be in a zone 8 area, you might have areas of your garden that are closer to zone 9 due to heat retaining solids such as sidewalks and houses. The soil in those areas likely stays warmer than soil in the middle of your yard. I use a rule of thumb that if a plant is hardy to zone 8, it will almost certainly make it in my yard over the winter unless it is subject to root rot from water. If it is hardy to zone 9, I might leave it in the ground depending on which part of the yard it is located in, and if it is hardy only to zone 10 or above, I lift it and bring it inside or into the greenhouse.
Around here, the winter wet is more likely to kill plants than freezing, unless we have a really hard winter.
If you have a garage, that's generally an okay place to put things that can withstand cold, but not freezing.

thanks for the reminder! I've been putting off getting things out of the ground and into pots. I don't want to be sorry!

I guess I'm wrong. In a garden bed I've found they can rot so I guess some overhead or mulching gets them through the winter.

What were you wrong about, growin? The cannas? I don't think so. Maybe yours need to be lifted in your garden. If you are having success with your cannas, you aren't doing anything wrong. But I'm not good at storing them. I lost the ones I dug up last year because they rotted in the greenhouse. It was too moist in there for them :( The ones I left in the ground did fine, but there was good drainage in their bed.

Well, I've seen them come through the winter ok but the best performance is in a raised, good drainage bed so I guess we've come to the conclusion that if they are wet and cool/cold they'll rot. A little overhead protection helps. There is a bed of them downtown which is in a concrete raised bed and it comes back strong every year. I guess that's the trick to overwintering Cannas.

100% agreement here!

I think you're right - I mentioned earlier about my cannas being in a bed between the garage and the walkway (it's very narrow, by the way) . . . they also are covered by the garage eaves and get very little water in the winter.

Yes. You get the cover of the eaves, plus the heat retention of the large structures like the cement and the house.

My Canna (some Tropicanna, some other, less showy types) are all over the place. The most prolific plants are surrounded by sidewalk, a sandstone patio, and a gravel path. Those are my favorites, so I want to be sure they are treated nicely. I also have some in pots (at least one of which lived in my pond this summer), and some planted beside the pond. Since this is the overwintering thread, I'll repeat myself (already posted this elsewhere) and ask what to do about my Rex Begonias, African Daisies (big, bushy, healthy-looking ones), and Hostas. I read today that I shouldn't cut my lavender back (I wasn't aware that some people do), but leave the foliage on for the winter and whack them in the early spring. I have literally thousands of plants in the ground, and although I did fine during the summer, I very little idea how to keep them alive through the winter.

I've been preoccupied with bulbs (about 4500 and counting) the last few weeks. I want to have early spring, mid-spring, and late spring flowers to keep the garden pretty until all the perennials are ready to grow again. I'm building chicken wire cages for the tulips, crocuses (croci?), and hyacinths, and supplementing with cayenne in the ground. I'll be da**ed if I want the squirrels to eat them up this fall. We used to feed them daily, but I made my husband stop when we started improving the yard. Hasn't reduced the population, though. Probably about 1000 of the bulbs need protection, the rest *should* be OK. Not tasty enough for critters, I understand.

LOL. Yes, you have to watch those squirrels. I think they sit in the trees just watching to see where we put bulbs, thinking to themselves, "mmmm...winter food!"

Well, I'm playing to win here. If I can be outsmarted by a pack of rodents I don't deserve to consider myself a gardener. :>)

Now that I've been outside, I realize I have another question about wintering:

Oriental Lilies (Mona Lisa) -- I have several of these, and am uncertain whether I should expect them to survive. They were listed as perennial, but sounds like that's not always the last word. Right now they are looking pretty yellowed out. I'd like to cut the dying foliage off, but don't know if that's the right approach. I know with some bulbs, you're better off leaving the foliage on until it's completely dead to keep feeding the bulb.

Any insights from the list? I'm outside working now, but have my laptop set up in the garage. I don't know how gardeners got by without the wealth of info we can glean from the web!

Shultman, I've had no problem with lilies surviving - I cut the foliage back when it looks pretty bad and occasionally cut it back sooner than that with no ill effects. The expert advice is indeed to leave it on as long as possible, but sometimes I just cannot stand the look of it! I sure admire what you are doing!

You don't need to worry about your hostas or lilies. They are hardy. With the lilies, just don't pull the stalk out of the ground because when you do it leaves a hole in the top of the bulb where the stem grew and water can get down inside the bulb. If the leaves are yellowed you can cut them back and if it leaves a hollow stem, fold the stem back. A solution to this problem is to plant the bulbs a little at an angle so the stem grows sort of to the side and then up. You are right that the dying foliage feeds the bulb so leave at least 1/3 of the foliage on until it turns yellow.
Rex begonias I have not been very successful with, but I think it was because of my lack of understanding about these last year. I think you can store these just like you do other bulbs and tubers, etc. When the foliage is knocked back by weather, dig them up, rinse them and dry them out, and store them in peat moss in a cool dry area. I think you can also bring these in and treat them as houseplants. Don't overwater them, keep them where the soil will remain warm (they hate cool and wet, which is why I lost mine last year), and they need humidity.

Forgot to say that I've been outsmarted by rodents, birds, deer, bunnies . . . and I still like to think of myself as a gardener!!! So don't despair if a few things get eaten.

Last year I layered a lot of bulbs in containers which worked really well. Not only did they bloom in sequence, I was able to move the pots to the back of the house for the Summer. It is my understanding that a lot of tulip bulbs don't survive because they get too much water when they should be dry and dormant. We'll see how things go this coming Spring, if it worked or not.

Herpst has this great trick of planting lilies in pots in intervals so that he always has some blooming. He keeps the bulbs in the fridge and then plants them every couple of weeks in pots and keeps them in a warm place so they start growing sooner. Then he puts the pots around the garden when they start blooming. Smart guy, that Herpst.

Boy, no kidding!!!! He also has more patience than I! I would eventually like to have most of my lilies in pots so that the ground gardens can take on some new plants. I have quite a few pots on the deck that had annuals in them this year and DH has expressed a desire to not have so many on the deck next year (he is definitely NOT a gardener) so I may use some of those for lilies and give him a little more space. Nice to be able to move them around when the whim strikes.

I put a lot of pots on the deck (am considering layering bulbs in some for spring), but I installed a complete drip irrigation system for them. There's not a pot in my yard that isn't getting watered automatically (shorter periods now than in the heat of summer)...although it's starting to feel like I should turn the water off altogether soon. And that I should not water the bulb containers daily, right?

According to what I read recently about the tulip bulbs in particular, the reason a lot of them are not perennials (not counting the newer variety that have been bred to withstand our wateringj) don't survive is because they rot from too much moisture. Supposedly if they were in their native country (gone blank there), they would receive basically no moisture all summer. So I moved my pots to the back where I rarely water and we'll see what happens.

The perennial tulips are normall more expensive than the "regular" ones so I haven't invested as yet - might be the easiest way to go, though, eventually. Then we can all just water whatever our normal schedule requires.

What are the alleged perennial tulips called? Anyone know?

I've seen them in catalogs and on the web (i.e. Wayside Gardens maybe? or Brecks? one like that?) and as I recall, they are just called perennial tulips.

the perennial tulips are also known as 'species' tulips. Check out http://www.johnscheepers.com/catview.cgi?_fn=Product&_category=Tulips:Species . so these are tulips that have not been hybridized to death - sort of like dogs that haven't been bred to physical perfection thus haven't lost their great personalities. These will multiply for you.
Yes drainage is essential around here. Most tulip species are from Turkey, the Mediterranean, those arid parts of the world. Since we have such dry summers here, planting them in areas where you don't water much in the summer is a good plan, or making sure that you till in plenty of compost and even small gravel when you plant them.

my biggest complaint about tulips that that so many of them bloom during our very rainy spring, and they cannot withstand rain and still look pretty. So I buy either the species tulips or late blooming tulips. Shultman, I think that somewhere in your beatiful landscaping you would have room for some black mondo grass, charteuse ground hugging sedum, and pink species tulips. It's a combination I tried this year and I loved it! I guess I didn't love it enought to photograph it, though. Sorry.

Thanks for the info, Pixy - I have this little problem of remembering just bits and pieces - lol!!

I'm a fan of black Mondo Grass, too. And, although it can be a little pricey to start with, it does seem to have babies rather prolifically.

Yes, it's a great little breeder, but not aggressive at all.

Black Mondo grass I have...not much, but the good part is, most of it seems to be happy where it is. The plants in front have been sneaking little babies in among my thyme ground covers -- piercing right through! The thyme seems to kind of slow in that area, so if the Black Mondo takes over, I don't care. I also have a couple of these around my pond.

I heard Ciscoe on the radio this past weekend talking about tulips, and I am pretty sure mine are not going to be as successful as other things. I don't really have any "dry" areas, since I have either traditional sprinklers, or micro irrigation everywhere -- running on timers. I may have to engineer a dry area next year. The 'Species' sound like the right thing, so I'll keep my eyes open for those. Tulips are very pretty, but I think the fancy daffodils can give them a run for the money!

Somewhere I either read or heard that as long as tulips have good drainage, they'll be fine. The just don't like to sit in wet clay. Some people mix plenty of gravel into the planting hole, even putting an inch or so of gravel at the bottom of the hole for the bulb to sit on. I recently placed a large bulb order at the website I gave the link to above. I didn't order tulips but I did order some daffs. It should be here soon and I'll let you know if they looked good. I've never ordered from them, but they are the only place that had a reasonable price for foxtail lilies and I know lots of other people on DG have ordered from them. Technically they are wholesale, but their minimum order is so small that it doesn't make any difference, since we wouldn't pay salestax anyway.