Cleaning of Needles

Chub Harper - (retired but still working always) plantsman and friend has sent me a number of emails recently involving what he calls "CSS" or Conifer Sudden Death Syndrome.

I know many of you are aware (especially with the congested Pines, especially the strobus cultivars) but I thought I'd shed some limelight on this topic a little further.

This involves all conifers and particularly the White Pines and the Larix cultivars as they shed more needles than most. Think in terms of suffocation. The interior build up as well as the needle shed that accumlates at the base of the conifers, needs to be removed annually and it can be thought of as a 'hands on get to know your plants better, type of "gardening".' He's expressly written of suddon demise of cultivars such as Pinus strobus 'Sea Urchin' where they would do well for between 10 to 15 years and suddenly die. As I mention however, all conifers need to be checked annually (winter and early spring) is a good time to get out in the garden to remove this build up).

It was said that in The Harper Collection and not until the plants croaked, that they noticed a thatch build up at times as deep as one foot. This effect can be compared to putting a blanket over your plant and cooking it. Same example with same results.

So, keep your dwarfs clean as the other congested and intermediate to larger growing will with wind or weather shed on their own, but it's the dwarfs and miniatures that need your attention. Whether build up occurs from the dwarfs themselves or whether it is a result of the sheddding of larger "trees" and their accumlation within or under the smaller guys.

Regards,

Dax

P.s. Bob Fincham (Coenosium Gardens) is where I originally learned the information, and Chub says also that he remembered that Bob had mentioned this collapse many years ago. So credit is given where credit is due.

This message will be repeated at Gardenweb.com as well.

What exactly do you mean dax? To shovel the pine needles up?

Use a rack...

Rake?

Scott

Oh yea, Ha, well, rake..

Ha ha.

Dax,

Great info! I'll have to keep this in mind when I get to planting my little pinetum.


Regards,
Ernie

Is it bad to put grass clippings under your pine trees? I've been doing that thinking they could use the extra nitrogen but maybe I'm making a big mistake.

Prairiegirl - I don't see anything difficult to read in my post.

You're mocking me, not this thread only but others. I'd be happy to leave for your own convenience if that's what you wish. A lot of stuff that's stupidly funny to you is stupid.

I think you're playing the dumb card intentionally.

Sure I'll be reprimanded by the Administration here, but you're pushing your limits with me. My message is simple and to the point.

You want to have quirky fun, take it elsewhere.

Don't send me any more Dmails either about being glad to see me back. I was offended to your timing actually.

Applauses to your drama and comedy and you’re being a gardener and horticultural student and asking me if a shovel is what I was talking about when removing needle build up from inside the conifers or from beneath.

Dax

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Lawn Clippings - ten questions in one. Organic - fine. Too much where buildup occurs and "CCS" happens - 'moniter'. In-organic should never be used for mulch.

Dax

Dax, thanks for posting this. I am particularly fond of prostrate P. strobus cultivars and wouldn't have thought the build up would be that severe to cause suffication. Interesting. I have several large P. strobus and if left unchecked, the needles can get deep. Fortunately, I love to use them for mulch in my beds so the needles are harvested annually and the trees only get to have a thin blanket of needles beneath. I'll start clearing out the needles from under the prostrate ones. Great post!

What happened to Conifers message? I missed it before it disappeared.

Its in the conifers forum at th GW, if you want to read it...

No, the only thing there is the original post. It clarifies that the needles of congested dwarfs need to be annually cleared from the undersides of the trees, in order to prevent suffocation.

PG, do you really want Loon to read that message? Wasn't that plain enough the first time around? I, for one, am glad it was removed. After all, this is a pay to play site and you have as much right to be here and post as any other paying member. I like Dax, but I thought that message was off base. He could have Dmailed you his comments without sharing them with the whole world. So now he's going to be at GW for a while. Are you still planning on dropping your scrip when your time runs out?

I am sorry that some of these threads have turned out this way. We are losing some very knowledgeable tree people because personalities are being drawn into the comments, rather than horticultural information. A lot of the joy has gone out of it.

What the heck happened? What is GW? I must have missed the controversy and don't understand what is is all about. I hope the knowledgeable tree people stay here and post so the rest of us on the level of trees for dummies can learn from them.

DG is truly like a garden, sometimes even the best flowers and trees have a bad leaf day or a slug moment!

I didn't get to read Dax's original message, but the needles that need to be removed are the needles that collect WITHIN THE BRANCHES of the dwarf strobus cultivars, not the needles that accumulate UNDER the plant (although, if there is excessive needle-buildup under the plant, it probably wouldn't hurt to remove some of the needles).

Because of the slow, congested growth, the dead needles don't fall away from the plant and actually end up building up in the branches, just under the crown of the plant. For some reason, this needle-buildup causes the plant to die, for what appears to be no apparent reason (I would guess that it's due to air circulation issues).

My Pinus strobus 'Horsford' and 'Sea Urchin' need to have the dead needles removed from below the crowns of the plant every year. When the plants are very young, this isn't an issue, but as the plants age, it's important to check the plant's crown yearly for needle-buildup.
Mike

Hi y'all! I don't know what the controversy is either, since all I read was the original message, which is the same at GW, where Patrick directed me, as here. I have no intention of playing a game of following the bouncing post! I subscribe here, period. Treelover thanks for explaining what I really wanted to know, I wasn't really clear what Dax meant. I bought my first dwarf conifer this year (a mugo pine). This info was timely, I went out there today and found a giant gob of needles stuck in the inner branches, I could swear I heard my little mugo breathe a sigh of relief! :0)

Hi PGz5,
This problem isn't as big of a concern for the mugo pine cultivars as it is for the dwarf forms of Pinus strobus (dwarf white pines). I would guess that any pine will/would benefit from having the buildup of needles removed from the branches, but it appears to be particularly important to remove the needle buildup from the dwarf Pinus strobus cultivars.

While you probably didn't need to remove the buildup of needles from your mugo pine, I am sure the plant is grateful for having the dead needles removed.
Mike

Thanks Mike.

I am just grateful that whoever (or however) took the time for the information to be posted in a way I can understand. I didn't know this. A few years back I suddenly, inexplicably lost a nice bird's nest spruce. I wonder if that's why. Now I know what to look for and how to prevent it. Thanks to all who contributed clarifications and additional information. I am particularly grateful to Dax for bringing this to the forum. It was a pain in the neck though going to GW (I don't subscribe there) to see what the topic was as first posted. I truly hope this doesn't continue.

How do you remove the dead needles around the crown? Do you use something like a rake to knock them down or what?

Loon, I believe you just reach in there with your hands to remove them. I'm glad I'm not the only one that asked...

No, you'll damage the plant if you use a rake; just use your hands to remove the dead needles. These plants are usually fairly small and the job can be completed in a couple of minutes, per plant, once a year.
Mike

I'm a bad conifer mommy. I use one of those old fashioned fan style rakes to get at build ups of needles under pine trees. I know, this is very bad but I have allergies to cedar and pine. If any of the needles touch my skin I end up with hives and welts. I do try hard to be very careful only skimming off the very top by gently pulling the rake toward me. My bad.

Hey Dax! Now I see your post!

I wasn't mocking you at all, sorry if I'm too stupid to follow every ruby that drips from your mouth.

This message was edited Oct 10, 2006 8:39 AM

All conifers not just Pines need removal of both the inside and below the plant. Thatch build up on either or will suffocate the conifer. The two most problematic are Pinus and Larix. Thrirdly, the most tight congested cultivars such as Pinus strobus 'Sea Urchin' as mentioned above need the most care.

It's been noted in the Harper Collection of Conifers that these miniatures especially were dying after 10 years (or whatever) and were continuously being replaced until the cause was known. Now, these plants are fluorishing.

and "CSS" is a term (not CCS) Chub Harper coined as for standing for: Conifer Suffocation Syndrome.

Larger trees don't need needle build up removal, however when they shed (White Pine for example) will increase build up inside the plants and below them. That's also where extreme build-up at the base becomes problematic, once again.

Dax