Would like to avoid invasives - suggestions please

I hope this is the correct forum. I want to avoid planting anything invasive.

At best I am a careless gardener. I am nearing the end of what I am going to clear of vinca and English Ivy from my back and side yards. I know the vinca was planted in 1965 and the ivy came over from the neighbors. Several of what I guess were the original vinca plants had vines larger than my wrist. Clearing approximately an 8 X 10 ground area resulted in a curbside brush pile 50 X 3 X 2, it was so dense. And that was just the start of my work in early June. I am leaving a rather large area in deep shade because I do not have the strength (literally) to get the rest out. I will chop and hack the borders of that area and around the bases of the trees a few times a year to try to keep it controlled.

I stumbled on this site trying to find some miracle tool or way to get rid of this stuff. I did not find it. I did, however, find wonderful information for which I thank you all - I will not be planting those butterfly bushes I coveted, nor the barberry, nor the wisteria and trumpet vine, nor several others that my lazy heart desired. I am an invasive plant magnet. (Though purple loosestrife is one plant that didn�t appeal to me, and I have always chopped down over and over - now dig out - white mulberry trees. As an aside, can anyone tell me why the vinca and ivy doesn�t care to climb and kill white mulberry? They loved the tulip poplars, beech and hickory.)

Starting at the back of the yard I want to plant something that will provide some shelter and food for wildlife and will not take any care once established. I would like something evergreen, at least in some areas, but as far as I can tell from reading here and elsewhere, that isn�t in the cards. I don�t want any conifers (I think) because due to neighboring trees (including some white mulberry which I am going to ask the neighbor if I can cut down) there already is only light to moderate shade there. Vibernums look like they would provide the food and shelter, but I�m not sure if I have enough sun? There is about 3-4 hours of morning sun mid-June through late August. Some old forsythia is still growing Ok in one area, but it has been years since it flowered which I think is due to lack of sun (changing light patterns from tree growth). Drainage is very good, neither too dry nor too damp, soil is rich from years of leaves and weeds.

Any simple suggestions for what a careless gardener can plant that would be good for the environment, or at least do it no harm ?

This is some of what I am considering:

1) Serviceberry

2) Vibernum dentatum

3) Lindera benzoin

4) Flowering dogwood that is disease resistant and that birds like ?

Here is one list of plants that are invasive in NJ http://www.npsnj.org/invasive_species_0103.htm I googled invasive plants New Jersey and it came up with a whole list, might be worth checking out some of the others too.

You mentioned above that you covet butterfly bushes...they are invasive by way of reseeding, so if you're willing to deadhead them religiously then you can keep them under control. Someone I'm sure will criticize me for saying that it could be OK to plant them, but as long as you keep them pruned short enough that you can reach the blooms and you deadhead them as soon as the flowers start to fade, they're not nearly as nasty as some other things, and they do have the benefit of attracting butterflies (although it's better if you can find some nice NJ natives to do that). If you want to be more responsible though, I believe that it's primarily B.davidii cultivars that are the bad actors, and there are other species of Buddleia, such as B. alternifolia which are (in my mind) even prettier than B. davidii and less prone to spreading. They don't necessarily have as long a bloom period though, B. davidii will keep reblooming most of the season if you deadhead it and some of the others don't rebloom quite as well.

I have the evil butterfly bushes. We put them in before I knew they might be considered invasive. I'm in zone 5b and they die to the ground every winter. I've never had a seed germiniate that I can tell, but I do dead head them so I get continuous blooms. They are marvelous for butterflies and hummingbird moths.

Anyway, isn't there a native trumpet vine? Campsis radicans - sun to part shade. I just got "Native Plants for the Northeast" by Leopold. Bought it used from Amazon. I love it. I've never seen a dogwood that stays perfect all year. They have a leaf spot disease. This said, I have one and love it. It doesn't flower for me though so has no berries. Also, what about mountain laurel. They're native and evergreen. Like having a rhodo.

The shade shrubs listed by Leopold are: sweetshrub, cinnamon clethra, bunchberry, American euonymus, eastern wahoo, running strawberry-bush, swamp dog laurel, drooping leucothoe, spicebush, rhododendrom including azaleas, flowering rasperry, red elderberry, canada yew, mapleleaf viburnum and hobblebush. Most of those are decidous I think.

This message was edited Sep 10, 2006 12:58 PM

notgrnjean:

Send a dmail to Fireweed (NJ DGer) and to Equilibrium (IL DGer). Then sit back in a comfy chair and prepare to spend some hours reviewing their recommendations.

I only have one bit of plant advice: Ilex opaca. If you can't grow American holly in NJ in the conditions you've described, then move to a condo and visit somebody else's garden.

Thank you, ecrane3. I looked at the link you provided. I'm surprised that vina (periwinkle) isn't on it! Most of the sites I've found, for NJ at least, have search functions but not lists of the invasives other than for the Wetlands and Pinelands. Searching for me is not very useful because for the most part I don't have the knowledge to fill in the search box. I do read about various plants, especially here, and google them to see if I can find something about them specific for NJ. I'm not at all good about identifying plants.

I will stay away from B. davidii altogether because I am definitely not trustworthy for deadheading.

Candyinpok, I should make a trip to the library.

As far as a native trumpet vine - may well be. I think though that I should stay away from any vines, too. A vine that interests me is the bittersweet - not the Asian one. But apparently one needs to keep an eye on that too, even though it's not invasive. Two and a half months of clearing a vinca/ivy forest has made me face my limitations as a "gardener". If I can't plant something helpful to the environment, I'll plant nothing. Something will always take up residence on it's own. Just clearing vinca/ivy/white mulberry will keep me out of trouble for a long while.

V V, thanks. I notice Fireweed lives very close to me. I will happily piggyback on his/her knowledge. I am a lazy as well as careless gardener.

notgrnjean, there are a couple reasons why vinca may not be on the list--one would be that it hasn't escaped cultivation and impacted natural areas, that's usually how things wind up on the invasive list when they end up in natural areas choking out native species. Vinca may be overly aggressive in the garden, but if it hasn't escaped cultivation yet it may not be on the list. The other reason is that even the best intentioned lists like that are going to miss a few! They'll usually catch the plants that have had the most bad impact, but if vinca's not taking over New Jersey yet, it may have been missed.

I don't want to live in a condo, V V. I've D-mailed Fireweed and Equilibrium.

ecrane3, I look around and see many well kept vinca patches, but also many like mine. When my area was developed in the fifties, most lots were left with large sections of original trees and other vegetation. There are several creeks and springs going through yards. There has been landscaping going on too, and many properties have large areas of vinca and English Ivy spreading from property to property. I can almost guarantee that there are vinca/ivy forests in some backyards running down to the woodsy stream banks. More than a third of what I thought of as my "woody, natural backyard" I realized had become a vinca/ivy monoculture, not at all natural. If vinca isn't on the list yet, it will be because of people like me.

I was horrified in 1977 to see the black shroud of Kudzu draped over the hardwood forests of Georgia. In ten years or less I think I would have seen the black shroud of vinca draped over my own tree tops. I am sure I will see it in the deeper backyards that go down to the streams.

Please don't consider any Butterfly Bushes. Although B. alternifolia, B. asiatica, B. colvilei and B. globosa are less invasive than B. davidii; they are still invasive and quite capable of escaping cultivation. B. davidii and every one of its hybridizing cultivars are considerably more popular therefore more documentation exists pertaining to invasive characteristics.

There are only a handful of native Butterfly Bushes. None of which are indigenous to New Jersey. Most are indigenous to Texas or a little bit farther west. You wouldn't want them for your purposes.

I would agree with ecrane3 that it is better to find NJ natives.

Regarding this-

1) Great choice. Consider one of these- Amelanchier obovalis, A. sanguinea, A. laevis, or A. canadensis. All should do fine in partial or dappled shade.
2) Viburnum dentatum is a fine choice however V. rafinesquianum, V. prunifolium, V. nudum, and V. recognitum would also be very fine choices also. Most can tolerate shade and one of those can tolerate deep shade.
3) Lindera benzoin, yet another very fine choice. Should be able to handle part shade.
4) Cornus alternifolia would be a good option for you. It appears to be resistant to Dogwood Anthracnose and it is quite attractive. It's an understory tree so it can take shade.

I'm just answering what you have above for now. Let me know if this is the type of information you are looking for. If so, I will continue for you. Incidentally, you sound like an extremely conscientious gardener... certainly not careless.

I hate to say this but the English Ivy and the Vinca really need to go if at all humanly possible. You have done a remarkable job removing all that you have removed and I know you are tired however as long as those are present on your property, they will haunt you forever. Baby steps, don't get overwhelmed... they will be there for you to nuke next year... they aren't going anywhere. Neither of those plants are currently appearing on an invasive list for your State but that is purely a direct result of politics. Nurseries make big money selling them. Same reason they aren't on the list of invasive species for my State. These things happen. Not much we can do other than to check with more reliable sources.

I will go check my D-mail to see what you have asked of me. Fireweed is an extremely conscientious gardener like yourself and I think it is good you have D-mailed her as she is closer to home. She most probably has lists of native plants at her fingertips for New Jersey. V V is the one who helped me with Viburnum so you might want to lean on him given he be da Viburnum Man. And, his recommendation of adding Ilex opaca to your landscape is superb.

Hi, Jean, and welcome to DG. Besides being neighbors, we also seem to have similar problems. I, too, am yanking invasives and trying to plant species that attract wildlife. I think many of us were careless gardeners until the word got out about invasives. I planted ivy and vinca all over my yard. Boy, did I live to regret it.

It looks like you've already gotten some great suggestions, I'll list the trees and shrubs I considered for my situation and maybe you'll find one or two you like as well. Since you are concerned about having a little too much shade, I'll indicate which ones need more sun:

Amelanchier arborea (Serviceberry)
Amelanchier canadensis (Shadblow)
Amelanchier laevis (Smooth serviceberry)
Amelanchier stolonifera (Running serviceberry)
Aronia melanocarpa (Black chokeberry)
Clethra alnifolia (Summersweet Clethra)
Cornus alternifolia (Pagoda dogwood)
Cornus amomum (Silky dogwood) ***Sun***
Cornus racemosa (Gray dogwood)
Corylus americana (American filbert)
Crataegus crus-galli (Cockspur hawthorn)***Sun***
Fothergilla gardenii (Bottlebrush fothergilla)
Ilex verticillata (Common Winterberry)--You'll need both sexes
Juniperus virginiana (Eastern red cedar) ***Sun***
Kalmia latifolia (Mountain laurel)
Lindera benzoin (Spicebush)
Myrica pensylvanica (Bayberry) ***Sun***
Physocarpus opulifolius (Common ninebark)
Rosa carolina (Carolina rose--duh!)
Sambucus canadensis (American elder)
Vaccinium corymbosum (Highbush blueberry)
Viburnum cassinoides (Witherod)
Viburnum dentatum (Arrowwood viburnum)
Viburnum nudum (possum haw viburnum)
Viburnum trilobum (cranberry viburnum)

Any chance you can try and smoother the vinca and ivy you have left? Maybe you can pile all the fall leaves there and let them sit through early summer?

I think you're wise to steer clear of Campsis radicans here in South Jersey. I put one in two years ago and I'm so sorry I did. It comes up everywhere and it's difficult to pull out.

If you'd like plant suggestions, let me know. I'll send another list. Since you've got good soil and shade, you might want to think woodland. There are some lovely woodland natives that really take care of themselves.

notgreenjean, I sure can relate - ! Good for you for your efforts....

Uhmmm...who are the northern CA counterparts for Equilibrium and Fireweed? :-)

That's a great list for woodies.

She needs some native herbaceous perennials fellow gardeners!

Gimme yer dalmation boots 4paws and I'll fix you up mighty fine. I may be from east of the rockies but the principles are the same.

Wow, thanks for the list and for identifying the ones that definitely need more sun.

Woodland among the big trees would be perfect once the vinca/ivy is gone. Equil is correct that I really cannot stop until it's gone. I think it will always be popping up, but I will be able to pull out the stragglers.

Probably the only useful feature of the vinca/ivy forest is that it eats leaves. I rake almost all of the backyard leaves (and that's a LOT of leaves) into the vinca/ivy forest instead of hauling them to the curb. By mid-Spring they are all gone, swallowed down the vinca/ivy gullet. You should see the quality of the dirt in the areas I've cleared ! In the really dense areas I've only gotten it a few feet back from the tree perimeters. There is about an inch or so of moldy leaves, not yet fully digested, but under that is 45 years of decomposed leaves. Black, crumbly soil filled with earthworms. (I bought the house from my parents so I know how long the leaves have been dumped there. And that the vinca was planted in 1965, in a much smaller area, of course.)

Really?
That would be a deal, 'cept given the fact that you could fit your entire self into one of those planters on another thread, I think you'd disappear in my boots. Of course, if you needed a boat in a flood, you could set up housekeeping in one.

We're going to fix you up notgrnjean! Just give us a little bit more information as to what areas of your property you want to work with and we'll all come up with suggestions for you to consider. The catalogs don't start rolling in just yet so you've got time before next spring to plot and plan.

We'll talk about the earthworms next year... maybe ;)

That was a huge planter 4paws. Look at the size of that planter. I had guesstimated it at 100 gallons although others felt I was off but it was a biggun. I eat like a human sewer. It's common knowledge. I am totally unapologetic about the quantities of food I eat and I am particularly fond of Thin Mints. What size are those dalmation boots? I'm a size 7 or 7 1/2 shoe but I always buy boots bigger because of socks. Put my name on those boots if they are anywhere near my size! Put my name on those boots even if they are a size 17. Do women's shoes go that high in size? Anyway, I live in the upper Des Plaines River watershed and lots of people around here row to their front doors from time to time. I could think of something to do with those boots even if I just look at them or wear them around to feel purty. All joking aside, did you ever call Las Pilitas? 805.438.5992
Maybe you should order a catalog from them or see if they are offering any classes at a time when you could go. I truly don't think you'd be disappointed.

Fireweed, I looked up the botanical name you used here http://www.hort.uconn.edu/Plants/c/camrad/camrad1.html and it warns that it may be invasive even though native ! That is one of the sites I like for checking on plants.

4Paws, I'm shamed to be such a whiner when I read what Fireweed has gone through ! http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/629070/

Equilibrium, you are wonderful ! I am going to put a weighted tarp over part of the ivy by the fence (where it's come through from the neighbors). It can't hurt. There's only ivy to kill. At least it may loosen it up some even if it doesn't kill it. When I'm rid of that corner section, I'll have the whole 100' back fence line, due East on the property. The ivy and the vinca met and mingled about 12-15' west of the fence, about the same place where the first large tree is.

Please tell me... there aren't any BAD earthworms, are there???

Jeanne,

You are NOT a whiner. My Ivy and Vinca must be younger than yours because it's fairly easy to pull. I don't have vines the size of a wrist! Poor Equil has been dealing with Frangula (Buckthorn) and many other invasives, terryr with Ailanthus (Tree of Heaven), we all have our demons. BTW, welcome to the Liriope club. tee hee I'm finding it's harder to pull than the Vinca and Ivy. Just when I think I've got the roots it snaps off.

I'll send you my list of woodland perennials soon. Sounds like you could grow some real pretties with that soil of yours.

Hamamelis virginiana( late fall blooms) and/or Hamamelis vernalis(winter, early spring blooms) and Hydrangea quercifolia (showy blooms and nice winter bark) are all good in partial shade. The vernalis and the Hydrangea are stretching the native range to include southeastern, I don't know how strict you'd like to be about natives.
For ground cover my favorite is patridgeberry (Mitchella repens) with it's tiny white flowers and red fruit (always eaten immediately). The patridgeberry (low growing) is a great evergreen groundcover to grow with the smaller spring ephemerals like rue anemone, Anemonella thalicitroides (one of the loveliest small plants in bloom and leaf). For more robust ground covers Asarum canadense (wild ginger, not evergreen) will fill in rapidly. Add Christmas fern (Polystichum acrostichoides), Tiarella and the native Allegeny Spurge (Pachysandra terminalis).
Two nurseries in NJ I've used, that have a good selection of natives, are Well-Sweep Herb Farm in Port Murray for plants and Rarefind Nursey in Jackson for plants and shrubs. I'd like to hear of other nurseries that carry natives.

FW's recommendation for you to use Campsis radicans is sound in my opinion.

Solarization/Smothering can kill just about anything. You may have to leave your tarps in place for a very long time but it will work to kill off major areas. I love to smother the life out of some plants and have used throw away carpets set out at the curbs by neighbors. What ever is thick and impenetrable can smother quite well but nice dark plastic tarps can fry their brains out. I like both methods, makes my heart leap with joy and the process is chemical free.

I had English Ivy by me with vines that were the size of my wrist. It still pops up from time to time to mock me. I planted it myself, 100 plugs... not one of my brighter moves. The Alainthus is all gone from my property and I know that stuff in my sleep so if a volunteer appears I shamelessley waste it. Garlic Mustard was my bane for a while there but thousands of them were religiously hand pulled and all I'm dealing with now is the remaining seed bank. The Buckthorn is Rhamnus frangula but I also have R. cathartica represented here... wanna come and look ;) Just teasing with you because I keep plugging away taking them out and I've removed hundreds with my chainsaw and weed wrenched out hundreds and hand pulled hundreds. Total removed is well in the thousands. The biggie for me is the Japanese Honeysuckle and that lousy European Barberry these days as well as that Siberian Red Twig Dogwood. Black Medic is popping up all over and that's trouble in the making. It's ok to whine. We can all whine together. I whine well. I don't have Liriope- nanner nanner nanner.

I know there are people out there who are purists. I myself will only use plants of local genotype in my wetlands. Purists generally only work with plants within a 50 mile radius of their property that would have been naturally occurring on their property before colonization. There's nothing wrong with being a purist. In my woodlands, I prefer genotype from within a 100 mile radius but will fudge to 200 miles or east of the rockies if push comes to shove. I'm desperate there because the area was entirely degraded and is now disturbed from the removal of exotics so I need to get something going. Right up in tight around my home it's been a free for all with a mix of eastern natives and well behaved exotics. That being said, I wholeheartedly believe it's perfectly fine to stretch the native range of a plant providing it is from east of the rockies for us. In other words, consider sticking to plants that are indigenous to the eastern states and don't import anything from the western states. Plants from the other side of the rockies are exotic on this side and vice versa in my opinion although they are all native to the continent of North America.

More on the earthworms at a later date or you can do a search for posts of mine trying to plug in nightcrawlers or maybe earthworms but here's one thread that sums up the issues quite nicely-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/623846/

Sempervirens looks as if she's going to be an invaluable resource to you and she even gave you the name of two nurseries that she uses. It doesn't get better than that getting a personal referral and you already know how to find the Latin name of a plant so you can check out to make sure it's native before you buy if that is of concern to you. Her suggestions above for ground covers are excellent. Witchhazels are a personal favorite of mine and you might want to seriously consider integrating some of those into your landscape.

You might want to consider joining a local native plant club. They frequently have seed and plant swaps and you'll get to meet gardners who share your beliefs. I've learned much from my native plant club. We don't have a lot of members but they collectively represent literally hundreds of years of experience with local genotypes. I'm a member of The Wild Ones. http://www.for-wild.org/

Equil, I have to confess I do have a very small Oregon Grape Holly (Mahonia aquifolium) which is certainly outside of the my native range. It is borderline hardy here so I think I'm OK on that one unless anyone knows something different.

Ha! You're confessing to one lousy little itsie bitsie western native plant? Up by my house in tight around the foundation and in the courtyard by the front door I was totally serious in that I really do plant eastern natives and exotics. Since I'm on the other side of the natural divide... I include western NA natives into the exotic/introduced category as well as a few European and Asian plants. If they're well behaved, I don't care as long as it isn't escaping to my wetlands or woodlands. Gosh, just call me Fr. Equil! Here to take confessions but who will take mine? I've got a list of western natives and Eurasian exotics that could probably fill an entire page. I'm particularly fond of my tall bearded iris. Those are my babies. Sheesh, the named cultivars of bearded iris I have alone would fill up 2/3rds of the page. I've got a really nice Japanese Maple up front and then there are my Hostas and then I love my Hellebores and my Tricyrtis and that doesn't even count what I grow inside the home in the form of Orchids, Hoya, Drosera, Pinguicula, Cephalotus, and Nepenthes and and and and and... now what were you saying about one Mahonia aquifolium? Forgive me for I have sinned (and will continue to sin) in the circles of the purists.

Sempervirens, thanks for the nurseries and groundcover suggestions. When the time comes I will make personal visits, along with my lists of botanical names, and write down specific planting instructions.

I definitely need replacement groundcover. With my typical bad luck, the area that I have cleared coincides with the steeper downslope paths on the property. I am sure that is one reason, erosion control, that vinca was planted in those areas. The day after I finished clearing that area we had a mini-flash food - was it 5 inches in a little over an hour or so? - and three streams of run-off joined to make a white water river. It was exciting to see M. Nature at work, but when it didn’t slow down and I woke up to the fact that my gorgeous cleared topsoil was forming a delta in my neighbor’s yard, I went out and started tossing firewood into the river to try to slow it. Only slightly effective, though it proved just how much topsoil I have under that vinca forest. Pride goeth before a washout.

I transplanted several large mounds of ajuga into the pathways of the tributaries just before the second mini-flash flood within a week later. It visibly helped slow the wash. I’ve also draped hoses as miniature temporary terraces. Very dense roots in those ajuga mounds ! I know, the ajuga is probably not want I want to keep there, but it worked for now and it is much easier to dig out than vinca.

My primary interest in natives right now is because I’m hoping to not make mistakes and plant something that in my careless hands will become invasive or overly aggressive. I suspect that when I get really involved in learning about what I am going to plant and why, that I will start speaking in Latin in my sleep and raiding the library or Amazon for plant books. I’m looking forward to moving beyond fear of making a mistake to being able to give reasons for my choices that may have some significance to others. I don’t know whether I will live here another year or ten years, but I will have a lot map identifying what I’ve planted and why they are good plants. Maybe the next owner will find it interesting enough that they won’t tear it out to landscape with English Ivy and flowering mimosa.

Equilibrium, when I have a bit more time and the weather keeps me from further de-vination, I will use the internet to see if there are any local native plant organizations. I’ve come across quite a bit of information about the native plant organization in Cape May County and for the Pinelands (very different ecologies) that have a lot of state support but nothing has chanced on my screen about anything local to me. At some point I will call to see if they know of any group local to me. The Ladies Garden Club here has made quite an impact even on my block, if you like English Ivy and hostas in your cultivated raised garden specimen beds. We probably wouldn’t have much in common

notgreenjean, you are so notlazyjean!

Er... uh... the ajuga is not exactly a mild mannered exotic. That's invasive. That's probably not one you want establishing itself in your nice temperate area.

Thanks for the heads-up, Equilibrium. The ajuga has been growing on the South side of my house for a long time. It’s only in the last couple of years that it’s finally filled in the space between the house and a log border. I knew (this was before-DG) that it could spread to my alleged grassy area, but I had no time to grow anything (even crabgrass) to slow that swift run-off water area. I didn’t and don’t consider a permanent fix, but it is definitely easier to remove than ivy or vinca ! It looks more and more like I will not be able to plant anything until spring.

I’ve tarped (with weights on top) some of the ivy area and will report in a month or so what it looks like under there. The tarp may remain until Spring. Plenty of other areas to work on.

I forgot that about a week ago I was clearing vinca from the South side of the fence area (not within the vinca forest - it is everywhere). I got most of the tangled top vines and leaves removed but still had large viney roots from underground uncovered. Rain was forcast and the ground was essentially bare - and on a downslope - so I tarped it and weighted that down with coils of hose. So I have two tarp experiments going !

Only my neighbor on one side can see what an ugly mess I have. Since she feels superior to me (for good reason) regarding my gardening skills, I know she will be shaking her head in disgust at the mess, but at the same time she will be pleased that I am reinforcing her opinion. Some day I will have something pretty blooming on that sunny South side, and that will make us both happy.

Don't worry about your neighbor. It's your property and your property values you are protecting. I had hideous shag carpet here for at least 6/7 seasons trying to kill off a bunch of ickies. Were' talking reds/pinks and oranges/reds/yellows. The stuff you see on bad 70's reruns. I picked it up for free from curbs. Tell your neighbor she should consider herself lucky she lives next to you and not to me. I've got may "projects" going on over here and they aren't all exactly purty. It's like cleaning your house, things always look far worse than before you started but in the end it all comes together.

Fr. Equil, next time turn the carpet over, the underside should be less colorful. Is this the time I should confess my greatest "sin" plant? Buddleia, pruned up to tree form. Slated to be potted and contained in the spring(- this is a seedling from the original butterfly bush I destroyed this past spring. Can't trust you"ll get all the seedlings even if you think you're deadheading carefully. The potted plant won't last the winter, so it will be gone soon.
notgrnjean, Sounds like you have a tough project ahead of you. More rain predicted today. Maybe someone knows a native groundcover that will help with the erosion.

This message was edited Sep 6, 2006 7:48 AM

I actually did flip it over because I didn't want anything to sprout in the lush shag but you can still see what color is poking out and that it is overturned carpet which just doesn't sit well with some people. It wasn't bad during the growing season but after the trees dropped their leaves and you could see up to my house, it was an eyesore.

Greatest sin plant, too many to list but I wasted a Butterfly Bush that had been a gift just this year. With so much going on here at home, I was afraid I might forget to deadhead it and figured it just wasn't worth it any longer.

The roots of native plants can go very deep. It isn't unheard of for roots to go 10', 15', even as much as 25' on some species. Incredibly, one often helps control erosion by the very act of planting natives in and of itself.

I do the rug thing, too, Equilibrium. When we bought this place, I ripped out the carpets (subfloor with dogs and a lousy housekeeper is better than carpet) and put it out to kill things. Now I collect big pieces of cardboard from the hardware store, since I've run out of rugs.

I've wondered if old clothes, natural fiber, could do the same thing.

4Paws, I think it would depend on what you are trying to smother. For vinca and ivy I think I need an inorganic material (such as a plastic tarp or synthetic carpet) because cardboard, newspapers, cotton would just be another food source, like the autumn leaves piled on really deep. Smaller, more delicate plants like regular weedy things and grass - even my ajuga - suffocate too quickly to outlast the degradation of a covering of something like newspapers or old towels. From experience the vinca at least simply keeps growing underground or under the covering until it can pop some leaves up for light and air.

I'm not counting on either of my tarping experiments to be able to really kill these vining monsters but rather to kill the leafy parts and weaken the viney traveling roots to make ripping it up physically easier. Over the years, just not in my vinca/ivy forest, I have mowed, cut and pulled vinca from around the yard. (It also had been planted along some foundation walls.) Within a couple of years, if not sooner, I'd see it growing again. I learned that I had to trace it all the way down underground and dig up what even to my untrained eye was an ancient root that certainly looked dead except for the new green vines that had finally managed to surface. I would like to be able to say with certainty that there are some areas around the house from which the vinca has been eradicated. All I can really say is that I have some areas going on 3-5 years where I have not yet had regrowth.

Equilibium, I'm thinking I won't have a long-term erosion problem. The steady and long rains we had for 24+ hours yesterday didn't wash anything too much. If even weeds would grow on this 3' wide exposed pathway it would be a big help. The two nurseries that semperenvirons told me about don't have the native gound covers. I haven't called them but I'm hoping they've just run out by this time of year or that it's the wrong time to plant them so they aren't stocked. I'm reluctant to waste time and money right now on something I'd want to keep anyway - weeds would be just fine if they would only grow. I think that I will have some vinca popping up even though it looks cleared, and when that happens I'll have to pull and dig to find the buried root. If I have something I want to keep there, it would disturb it pretty badly.

I picked the wrong time of year to denude a short but steep slope in my vinca/ivy forest. I'm paying attention now to the sloping and working on removing from the less erosion prone sides toward the steeper down slope.

I have two large old trees there whose deep roots didn't help the mini-flash flooding erosion. I'll be "planting" some of the firewood logs as mechanical barriers to slow the washing water. Depending on what "permanent" new things I plant next spring I may not even have to move the firewood.

I have mixed feelings about the upcoming heavy autumn leaves. It's good that I will still have plenty of vinca/ivy forest to swallow the leaves so I don't have to haul them out to the curb. It's bad that I still have plenty of vinca/ivy forest to swallow the heavy autumn leaves.

In defense of wisteria...try the native, American wisteria! http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/1351/index.html You can find a cultivar called "Amethyst Falls" in many catalogs. I got one about a year and a half ago. One great thing about native plants is that they are so tough because they've adapted to the environment. I planted my wisteria next to a huge live oak on our corner. What I didn't realize was that the sprinklers didn't hit that side of the tree. My wisteria grew quite a bit the first year, but didn't bloom, and didn't grow as much as I thought it would. Of course, once I realized it had been relying only on Florida's crazy rain schedule did I understand what the problem was. This year I made sure to water it during the dry season and it put out its first bloom! Now, if I can only keep my dad and brother from trying to hit it with the weedwhacker!

As a Floridian, I often get catalogs full of things I can only dream about growing. But the great thing I've learned is that there is often a different variety of that plant that is native to my area. Same with some invasives - you might not want to grow a particular species, but it might have a cousin that's native to where you live. A great resource is your local county extension office. Also, check if there are any botanical or public gardens in your area. I go to the USF botanical gardens all the time. Which brings me to another good resource - local colleges. UF does a lot of work with the master gardener programs here and there might be a similar program where you are. Also, those master gardeners are always giving talks at local libraries in the area and one of the more popular topics is "Native Plants". I also enjoy finding out which plants are endangered or threatened in my area and then trying to grow them. My latest adventure is hooded pitcher plant seeds. I think they're coming up but I won't be sure until my mystery seedlings get a little bigger. It's great to plant native plants and to think at the same time you may be preventing their extinction!

Finally, we all have to have our foreign babies. I see nothing wrong with it as long as they're not invasive. I have a backyard full of bromeliads, and while a few airplants are native to Florida, most of mine originally came from Central and South America. We all have to indulge from time to time.

Should work but if you have any concerns it would be better to layer with newspaper first. Ink is soy based now so no need to worry from that respect. Just wet down the newsprint and lay it on thick. Try about 15+ pages. Toss your other goodies on that if you want but it wouldn't be necessary. Your neighbors will most certainly think you are certifiable but tell them the clothes and miscellaneous are merely works of modern art or something. Be creative, they wouldn't believe what you were really doing anyway. What's nice about newsprint is that when you are ready to begin planting the area, you can just cut out little holes to stick your plugs down into.