Spider Mite/Scale??? devastation

I have lost 90 % of all my plants in the last 8 months trying to stop these critters. Some of my plants I had for over 20 yrs.These insects killed huge cactus that my best friend entrusted to me before she died of breast cancer. Last fall I bought a couple plants from a lady here in South Austin who has a greenhouse and regular plant sales. I asked her about the spots on the plants and she said no big deal alcohol and a Q-tip.
I tried the alcohol and Q-Tips. Neem Oil. Sterilized garden tools. Repotted everything making sure dirt,pots , tools were all sterilized, Isolated what I thought to be the only infected plants into my temporary plastic greenhouse and did a series of 3 different bombs I bought at the hydroponic store. Scrubed with peppermint soap, sprayed with alcohol, dish soap, and habanero garlic juice that I brewed myself. The grand finale was chemicals . By this point I was ready to kill every living organism in my yard. I read about the Bayer product (blue bottle) some of the lady's on DG used. I rationalized using something so toxic by telling myself it was like chemotherapy. A couple of the plants seemed to recover after a few months. I'll end this by saying I have thrown in the towel they win. What ever this is has killed over 50 plants that I loved and nurtured all of my adult life. I have 6 plants left on death row and it is just a matter of time.
Grieving in Austin,

Try your county AG inspector . Don't tell him it's killed my plants
say
" I am worried whatever it is - is going to get out of my yard and spread . If you can't help please tell me who can . " With the weather we are having , one good storm could spread or maybe the birds will on there feet .

Can you try posting your picture again? It looks like you tried to post one, I see the line about click here to view a larger image, but there's no thumbnail there to click on for some reason. The appropriate treatment for spider mites and scale are going to be different, if you have a picture of what the critters and/or the damage look like, someone here will probably know what it is and that can provide you better guidance on how to treat it. Since it's spread over such a wide number of plants my guess is it's more likely to be spider mites than scale, but it might be something else entirely, I think spider mites would have responded better to the chemical attach and unless you caught the infestation really late after the plants were already on death's door they should have recovered better than it sounds like yours have. If it's scale, it doesn't respond too much to chemicals unless it's at the crawler stage, but I also haven't seen scale do widespread damage like that--I've had several plants get it over the years, but it seems to like certain types more than others rather than infesting everything, and I honestly never saw it kill anything even when I had a couple plants that were pretty heavily infested.

Photo #1

Dontcha just love nurseries that tell ya "no big deal alcohol and a Q-tip". I can't tell what you have there based on your photo but if you believe something alive is wreaking this havoc, at this point you may need a quality systemic. It's going to cost you a little bit of money but you might want to consider wettable Orthene. If using this product is of interest to you, I will walk you through trying it out.

Here's a link to an affordable source-
http://www.growersupply.com/orthene.html?OVRAW=orthene%20valent&OVKEY=orthene&OVMTC=advanced



This message was edited Sep 2, 2006 5:01 PM

I'm not sure what would do damage like that, doesn't look like either scale or spider mites to me but unfortunately I'm not sure what it is.

No, it certainly doesn't look like scale or mites but Orthene would address both and it is one of the few products that will. To me, I'm thinking this is some form of a pathogen. It almost looks bacterial.

If it is bacterial, that would explain why all the pesticides weren't helping and I agree that it doesn't look like normal pest damage. But don't most bacteria just infect a couple types of plant? Unless most of the plants in the garden were in the same or closely related families I'd be surprised at the widespread infection. But plant pathogens are a little outside my expertise, so I could definitely be wrong!

There could be a bacterial agent transferring the infection from plant to plant particularly if she is growing cactus and succulents. Orthene should treat the vector. The actual infection being deemed secondary would ultimately have to be addressed if this were the case. She tried the Bayer Advanced product which I believe has fungicidal properties. I hate fungicides and if this is a fungal pathogen that is present and still destroying her plants after having used the Bayer Advanced product, I'd be inclined to throw in the towel at this point and follow this out experimenting with no expectations of ending up with any live plants. She'll have to consider moving on up the fungicide chain to products like Captan and in good conscience, I wouldn't advise anyone use that product. I don't even want it any where on my property. I'm afraid to comment at this point but I'd call it quits with any newly purchased replacement plants other than those that would be deemed expendable until at such time as it was determined the area in which she was growing her plants as well as the pots and any and all gardening tools and such were thoroughly cleaned and bleached. I'm certainly no expert but something is truly amiss given all this poor woman has done in attempts to isolate and eradicate what ever it is that is doing this to her plants. I'm going to back up and suggest she consider trying the Orthene for right now. It's a shot in the dark but perhaps if the plants rebound even a little bit, we'll all have something more to work with.

Better yet would be to hold off doing anything more and photograph all the plant damage and walk the images in to the extension office. E-mails can be ignored as can call ins. Extension offices do have many master gardeners who volunteer their time but they often have biologists, horticulturists, and pathologists walking through from time to time. If her extension doesn't have access to these types of experts, I guess I'd have to ask to be put in contact with one. I'm afraid what she has there does truly appear to be capable of spreading off of her property or at the very least reinfecting any future plants she may attempt to grow.

How about sending off portions of the plants to Cornell? I keep forgetting they are out there. I've sent plant material to them before. It's been a long time but if I was plagued by a mysterious plant destroyer, I wouldn't hesitate to pay their fees. Sometimes you just gotta know.

Have to agree that the damage doesn't look like spider mites or scale to me either. I'm leaning towards a virus as the culprit. I think the description of "necrotic lesions" in the attached article seems to fit.

http://www.bspp.org.uk/ndr/jul2001/2001-31.asp

The necrotic lesions in the article you posted a link to would be a direct result of the persistent infestation of western flower thrips with the western flower thrips being the "vector". I found it interesting that the secondary "symptomless" and unidentifiable virus was noted. Secondary infections are often present however most don't address them.

I'm still leaning toward this being bacterial or fungi related. Why, I don't know other than just a little voice given viruses are also frequently transmitted from plant to plant via vectors such as thrips or aphids. The issues I see with this being viral would be the range of hosts in that she mentioned having lost 90% of all of her plants over the past year and presumably the remaining 10% are what she is trying to save. I suppose it is possible that she is only growing one or two species of plants but I suppose like most of us, her plants are representative of a few genus but a wide range of species. Based on my limited experience, viruses tend to infect a specific species leaving others unscathed. Think mosaic virus. Host proteins are coming into play. Virus transmission is dependent upon replication. There will be the cell to cell movement then the vascular spread but none of this seems to be able to occur without specialized proteins. One thing is for sure, viruses are difficult to control.

http://www.hort.cornell.edu/greenhouse/pestsdis/DiagLabs.html

I just re-read what I typed and it looks rather confusing because although I am familiar with the basic concepts, I'm way out of my league with viruses. I should have mentioned RNA. I went on line and found two sites that better address what I was trying to convey-

http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e35/35.htm
http://www.plantphysiol.org/cgi/content/full/138/4/1809

I agree, Cornell sounds great . At this point I've lost so much .What's a few dollars more to solve the mystery and prevent future deaths. It's only on the cactus and succulents which I had alot of. The cactus I showed you was one of my last. I am sending a photo of a succulent that now has it. "It" begins on the stalk of the plant being slowly covered in this goldish webbing or crust. Then the folage begins to shrivel on the succulents. The spines on the mature catus turn kind of grey and dead looking.Sometimes there will be a whitish fuzz on the dead looking spine.
Thanks to everyone I sincerely appreciate it. Will be in touch manana.
Cindy
PS I think that was a systemic from Bayer. I wil dig out tomorrow.

Different active ingredient in Bayer Advanced than in Orthene. I am familiar with both.

I feel for you Cindy. If you are going to use the services of Cornell, don't treat the plant you photographed with anything.

Please do share what you learn from Cornell. Their turn around time is pretty darn good.

Thanks for the links and analysis Equilibrium. I was leaning towards virus because that is the only thing that ever attacked our cacti that created lesions.
The description of whitish fuzz does sound like a mould, but maybe this is secondary.

Cindyy, have you posted this on the Cacti& Succulent forum? Since it's only affected those plants, someone over there might know more about specific pathogens that infect C&S. I would still take it to Cornell because that'll be the definitive answer, but I bet the folks on C&S would have some more ideas for you too.

That's a good idea on the cactus forum. I'll certainly do that.
I've been looking for the lab at Cornell. The only info I can find is for nutritional analysis. If someone has an address or phone # that would be great. I'm also going to check with A&M. They are right up the road. I'm not sure if they provide that type of service. I will keep you guys posted.

Hey Cindy,

I provided you with the link to Cornell which includes a phone number 7 posts above but here's a direct link to sample collection-

http://plantclinic.cornell.edu/Sample%20Type%20Pages/greenhouse.htm

I just printed out my submission form from Cornell. I will be so relieved (hopefully) to get rid of this plague. Thank ya'll

Hey Cindy, don't treat any plants with anything that you want to submit tissue from.

I'm very excited for you. I know the feeling of wanting it all over with and reduced to "bad dream status" all too well myself. Please be sure to share your findings with the lady in South Austin who has that nice little greenhouse who is spreading this all around and if it is learned that what you have is particularly nasty, I'd be sure to share it with your department of agriculture or any other appropriate regulatory authority. She obviously needs to clean up her act. If you don't mind my asking, what was the name of every cactus plant that was given to you by your friend who died of breast cancer? I have a few small ones in one office at work and if I have any that are the same as what you had, I would be more than happy to set them aside for you and send them out when the coast is clear.

As soon as I get the results I will post and let everyone know what my diagnosis is and what the treatment will be. The only thing I treated the plant I sent off with lately is hot pepper and garlic spray I made myself. I put that in the documentation with the cactus I sent off.

That is so kind of you to offer cuttings to replace my girlfriends plants.After the coast is clear I would be most grateful for anything you could spare a cutting of.My friend that died was named Sheila. She was only 38 yrs old and left a son who was 12. I fortunately started cuttings of several of the cactus she entrusted me with and gave them to my daughter who lives in Galveston. She says that have quadrupled in size and are as healthy as can be. I told her not to bring me anything until at least spring. This will give me time hopefully to set up my new used greenhouse and scrub everything in sight with bleach water once again and mainly make sure "it" is gone. I think I might keep my cactus in the greenhouse from now on and make sure when I bring home a new plant to put it in quarantine for at least a month. I won't be able to replace the 2 big Mexican barrel cactus(Ferocactus) that were at least 30 yrs old. A varigated Aguave,Hildewintera aureispina (I called it Medusa), 3 Epiphyllums including a "rick rack" (1st to die),Cereus peruvianus(in photos), a huge night blooming cerus,several Crasulas, Echeveria,all my hoyas(2nd to die), 2 huge Euphorbias, Aeoniums,..... I better stop I'm getting too sad.
On the bright side, all my bulbs have done very well and I'm going throw myself into bulb gardening this fall. I'm going to the big bulb sale in Houston next month so I'll be digging!
Happy Gardening to everyone and thanks for the support.

P.S. very interesting about the necrotic spot virus!

Hi Cindy, I'm going to D-mail you. Please send me your name and address and then let me know when the coast is clear. It is good your daughter has cuttings because Sheila's plants live on.

Glad I found this thread-- having issues here in my garden with the spider mites...Orthene...Hope I can find it at the local nursery or home depot. I heard the spider mite like dry conditions, so I have been making them miserable (I hope) with a steady mist onto large sections of the garden periodically.

*sigh*

Rj

I've yet to see Orthene available anywhere other than mailorder.

okay...thanks...

Hey is anyone seeing a bright orange and green ad toward the top of this thread?

If you choose to go with the Orthene wettable product, I'll share with you the step by step process shared with me by the man who distributes the product. He spent a lot of time with me for which I am very grateful.

okay...cool...

Equil,
Now that you mention it, I am. Dave must be starting to let Ad's on the site.

There's a thread on DG forum about this, he's letting companies sponsor forums for a period of time, don't think that all the forums have sponsors yet but apparently this one does. If you don't want to see them, I think you can go to your preferences and choose to not show them just like you can with the regular ads that have always been there.

Thanks, I should be checking the DG Forum more often to keep up with what's going on.

Just curious what what Cornell said about the samples of the plant sent in.

Gosh, just saw this thread. Cindy lives so close to one of the best diagnosticians - Dr Larry Barnes at Texas A&M Plant Disease Diagnostic Clinic in College Station. The plant would have got there faster and in much better condition too.
For future reference....

I just clicked on her user name and she's no longer a subscriber. Maybe send her a d-mail? Non-subscribers still have access to d-mail and if she ever logs on again she'd have your information.

Hi Equi - This is an open forum, so if she's still around at all, she has access. Looks like she may have wandered off....

Don't you just hate it when you really would like to know what the answer is, and they just go away?

Yes, I do. I was sort of curious to find out if her plant survived because it meant a lot to her.

I'm 99% sure this is a subscriber only forum so Cindy wouldn't have access anymore.

Nope, ecrane. Check it out - I did.

When I go to the forum list, it has the little red asterisk after this one which means it's subscribers only.

Edited to add...I also tried logging out and coming to this forum, and all I could see was the first post, it told me if I wanted to see the responses I had to be a paid subscriber.

This message was edited Dec 1, 2007 8:10 AM

Makes no difference whether this forum is open or not because evidently the original poster doesn't realize she would still have access to her d-mail as well as to a handful of forums.

I did see the little red asterick by this forum though too.