What, exactly, is so bad about Siberian Elm (Ulmus pumila)?

I promise this isn't flamebait.
I want to know the particular pros and cons of these trees.

The reason why, is because I think that 2 of the 3 little Elm volunteer seedlings that I so nobly "rescued" from a very nice neighborhood in Portland, OR, are probably Ulmus pumila. I had assumed that they were American Elms, just like the lovely Elm trees in that neighborhood, but, after closely inspecting their leaf shape and arrangement, at least 2 are most likely the Siberian kind. Who knows, maybe the parent trees are Siberian Elms as well, although I assumed that the neighborhood was too nice for riff-raff trees.

I think the seedlings are cute, and I don't see why I should get rid of them. Does Ulmus pumila have any redeeming qualities, and if so, what are they?

I think the two main issues are that it is invasively liberal about spewing its many seeds and that it is a short-lived, rank tree with a tendency to fall apart during storms.

Scott

Scott's a tough critic of most things that are not Acer or Carpinus, but he has kind of candy-coated this one. One author held his tongue and offered the following:

OK, tell us what you really think.

Yikes!
So it seems the only pros are that it's fast growing and cold hardy.

But here's my situation: I have a big open field that could use some trees, and I'm moving away soon (I live at my sister's place right now). I was thinking I could plant the seedlings there, and my sister can remove them later if she doesn't like them. Does that sound okay, or not even that?

Owl:

I've read and respected your posts here and on the other site for a number of years, so please don't take this as an attack. I would make the same comments in this situation for just about anybody.

In the Willamette River valley south of Portland, a nursery capital of North America and where one can grow just about anything...why choose to plant a species (known to be problematic elsewhere) with few other redeeming values, none of which are necessary or sufficient for use at this site?

That'd be like offering to refurbish the house with lead-based paint.

I'd bet (with a minimal amount of requisition/groveling) you could be inundated with free seedlings of just about every species of plant anyone has laying around. Leave a legacy, not a millstone.

I could lead the barrage: I have Pterocarya stenoptera, Quercus georgiana, and Styrax obassia. None are native there, either, but each would be superior to the dreaded Ulmus pumila.

I'm listening. I need persuasion sometimes.

Believe me, this isn't the first time I've "rescued" an invasive volunteer, thinking they're nice trees, only to find out later they are noxious weeds. I even brought home an Ailanthus once! I always plant them in containers first, which has proven to be a wise precaution, LOL. I had to dump out all my Norway Maples when I learned they were invasive. It was a tough thing to do, after all the months-years of TLC I gave them, but I did it.

Edited to make it clear: I have never planted a "rescued" seedling in the ground until I knew for sure what it was.

I thought I had learned enough about tree ID to never make this mistake again, but, since I don't have any experience with elms, it figures that I just HAD to bring home the invasive kind.

Just to be 100% sure I have Siberian Elm:
The leaves look like a little mint leaves, serrated. They are about 1.5" to 2" long, symmetrical and cat's-eye shaped. Alternate arrangement. (I'll see if I can get a hold of a digital camera, and post a photo, just to be sure).

This message was edited Aug 19, 2006 5:36 PM

This message was edited Aug 19, 2006 5:42 PM

That's one of the best things VV has ever said here, and let's face it, he says a lot!

Owl, I've probably seen millions of Ulmus pumila on at least three continents where they don't belong. I think there were three or four really nice ones in there somewhere. We have two here -- one was planted as a remembrance of my deceased uncle, having been grown from seed picked off what unfortunately was the only tree in his yard; the other is a fastigiate selection kept merely for its unique form, as a curiosity. They haven't reproduced much here over the past 30+ years I've had them, but if they start doing that they both might be goners.

Your elm could also be Ulmus parvifolia, which is nearly as invasive in some areas. Either way, I'd follow VV's advice and plant something to be proud of, not a weed.

Guy S.

Guy.....

Don't chime in on undercover. If you've got them, why shouldn't she leave a few behind... as a remembrance of lost loves or who knows what. Seriously, couldn't you come up with a better remembrance for your uncle? Maybe you better contact Coleen. I think she can do considerably better than Siberian Elms of all things regardless of whether one is a fastigiate selection or not. I think it's time to play the Bad Boy song again.

It was the only tree in his yard, and I germinated it probably before you were born and certainly before I knew it was an invasive weed. On the good side, the seeds don't carry in the wind beyond a few hundred yards, so I can monitor it -- just like I do with Albizia! You are so cruel, wanting me to kill my poor dead uncle's tree . . . heartless, I daresay!

No, Equilibrium, I don't have any emotional attachments to my little "rescued elms", like Guy S. does to his Siberian legacy tree, LOL. I'm thinking that the upscale-neighborhood elm seedlings are most likely not Ulmus pumila. Maybe Ulmus parvifolia.?

But, I don't have much experience with elms. Elm trees are really not as common here as in other places in the U.S.

ViburnumValley: what's wrong with Styrax obassia...!?! Snowbells? C'mon.....sigh.....I wish I could get them to grow from seed!

Well, we're nothing if not persistent and persuasive. Successful...not always. If you get to photo the seedlings, see (if you have time) if you can take some shots of the site you wish to invigorate with new plants.

I hold no grudges against any of the snowbells. This spring was my first attempt at growing some out, and that was purely an accident of photographing a grouping of fragrant snowbells that happened to have copious seed laying on the mulch under them. I put a handful of them in a container of potting soil, and left the pot with other shrubs that I've kept watered. Voilà! I have a mini Styrax forest. I should've gathered a thousand more.

I merely mentioned their non-nativity because a natural gardening inclination is to plant something different or odd, instead of choosing local but underused species. Never having been to Oregon (but possessing an unnaturally incessant desire to do so, which may come to fruition in September), I can't comment on what you should plant. If you aren't going to be around to monitor or assist these trees in their future growth, then a species that won't need extra help establishing and growing out to their mature potential (without being a threat to the surrounding environment) seems like what you'd like to achieve.

You could blend canopy shade trees, long lived conifers, and sprinkle in colorful blooming small trees and shrubs to carry seasonal interest.

This is starting to sound like a project.

Here it is. ID help, please.

Never mind...

At first glance at your pic, you may very well have Zelkova serrata.

Most elm leaves have oblique leaf bases, meaning the tissue doesn't line up where it meets the petiole. Your picture doesn't seem to show this gross ID character, leaning me towards zelkova.

Buds on Siberian elm will be blackish-brown and rounded with hairs on the edges. Zelkova buds will be pointy, 45º divergent from stem, and with shiny dark brown scales.

Are the great trees in the neighborhood you found these all pretty uniform in outline, vase-shaped, and rather densely branched? These are more excellent gross ID features of zelkova.

Yeah, probably not an elm. Are the teeth double or single? Now just wait patiently for Decrepit to wake up, and he will proclaim it's Carpinus something-or-other!

Guy S.

Well hmmm......does anyone think this Ailanthus altissima (tree of heaven), I have in my back yard was planted in remembrance of somebody's dear lost relative? Perhaps I need to re-think my quest of getting rid of it. I mean if one of the previous owners planted it in remembrance of their mom, dad or dearly departed unlce, who am I to cut the thing down? Right?

I don't care if it was planted in remembrance of Mother Theresa, cut the &^$@ thing down!

Scott

Here is seedling #2 taken from the same location. (My Polish Crested chicken got interested, and you can see her head in the photo).

I know for sure it's not Ailanthus. It's an Ulmus or a Zelkova.
(terryr: get rid of the ghetto palm. You don't want Ailanthus and neither do your neighbors within a 100' radius.

This message was edited Aug 21, 2006 12:39 PM

Here is a close up of seedling #1 (the first photo I posted in this thread)

Here's seedling #3
(sorry about the head-tilt factor. I'm kind of new to posting photos)

This message was edited Aug 21, 2006 12:58 PM

Of course I don't want the dern thing. I didn't plant it, somebody long before me did. I'm just merely using Guy's reasoning for keeping it. I mean if some trash tree(s) is good enough for him, why not me too?

(Mother) Theresa aka Terry

P.S. Ailanthus goes a lot farther than 100'. We should be so lucky.

I have a mild rant for the Siberian Elm topic:
I'm in a desert climate (less than 8" annual precip) and thanks to post- WWII city forestry service attempts to green up the place and fast, these horrid monsters take over remotely moist areas in a hurry. Goodbye rare moisture-pocket (or high plains) biodiversity. Bmobiel dunes of their nasty little papery seeds cover my front beds every spring, spawned from whole trees in early spring that carry more seeds than leaves. They have taproots that manage to find moisture in places that shouldn't grow anything but friendly cactus and Yucca. They sprout up on fenclelines and are difficult to kill with pesticides when it is so dang hot here. Then, as mature (if you call a 25,' ten-year old seedling "mature") trees, they get a seeping, slimy heartrot that makes pruning or removal a supremely dirty job, plus the beetles abovementioned.
They are equally as likeable as your garden-variety Ailanthus, aka "Tree of hell."

On a lighter note, fresh Coffee makes a delicious morning beverage.
Kenton J.

ed. for typo.

This message was edited Aug 21, 2006 2:40 PM

Mother TerrieR, did you plant the Ailanthus yourself, to remember someone important to you, or was it there when you bought the place and with no deed restrictions regarding its preservation? Has it proven not to be a problem in your particular situation, and do you monitor it for recruitment? You walked right under my uncle's tree and didn't yap-yap a thing about it at the time, so your analogy is as leaky as a bottomless bucket! You didn't see any Ailanthus here, did you? Ha! So there! I guess I told YOU!

Owl, you posted a great photo of the brown grass behind those blurry leaves. You must have attended the TerrieR School of Advanced Photography! I can't tell from that pic, but if the leaves have secondary teeth between the primary teeth it's not Zelkova. Since you already have them potted up, you might keep them that way for a year or so and see what they turn into.

Guy S.

No, I didn't plant it as you very well know. You also know I can't ID most trees (or most shrubs) for squat. My analogy was very good, you just don't want to get that just because you planted the thing, doesn't make the tree a good tree. How do I know that somebody before me didn't plant the tree as a memorial for their dear departed ______(fill in blank)? Are you sure that when you're so old and decrepit and somebody comes and buys your land, that they don't leave all your invasive stuff? Or are you taking it out while still of sound mind? Don't tell me you're leaving it in a trust of some sort and by golly by gumfry they'll be sure to take them all down. My parents have a Bradford Pear that puts out lots of little pears. It hasn't proven to be a problem at all. Shall I go gather some pears and plant them as a memorial? I mean they aren't a problem out there after all. Right?? Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Owl, Guy's just jealous because his photos don't garner the attention that my photos get. He's also just a crotchety old man who lacks in love and jealous that I'm loved. Everybody's good at something. Guy can take pictures but I have more personality in my little finger than he could ever hope to have in his whole body. Now ain't that right Guy?

No one is buying the land. It's all been taken care of. But yeah, I would consider removing that pear if it's already visibly self-seeding, because you don't know how far the little pearlings are going via the birds.
And no, I still won't steal a sign for you, sweetie!
Guy S.

Thanks, Guy.
Seedling #1 has secondary teeth between the primary teeth. Seedlings #2 & #3 have only single toothed leaves.

All three look a little different, IMO, which makes perfect sense, because there are a variety of parent trees in that neighborhood. Again, it's a nice neighborhood with really great trees, so I'm holding out hope that they're all good seedlings.

I'll show photos again when they get a little older/bigger. If people here can't ID them then, I don't know who can!

Nice change of subject Guy! The pear is at my dad's house. He's not going to be removing it anytime soon. Perhaps you can try to get him to remove it?? He sure doesn't listen to me.......See if I ever do anything for you again. It's just a sign.

But it's not YOUR sign!
(Hey baby, what's your sign?)

His pear surely isn't the only one in town, so he's merely adding to a problem instead of starting one. The worst thing to do is to plant something invasive with bird-dissemminated fruit like Bradford pear in an area where it doesn't already occur. The weather will take care of it soon enough anyway. Just don't let him replace it with another one.

Guy S.

You don't know my sign? I thought you did......I'm a scorpion. All makes sense now, huh?

He doesn't live in town, and I haven't seen any others out there. They're kind of hard to miss in spring, but I think I'll look around again. Can you believe he bought that thing b&b? He wanted at least 1 specimen tree that was of some size. The thing is huge. If it falls north or west, he's alright. Anything else, it falls onto the house.

UCO,
I didn't read this entire thread, but PLEASE DON'T PLANT AN ULMUS PUMILA, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES!!!! I cannot emphasize this enough.

Ulmus pumila is a fast growing, weedy tree with brittle branches that will seed everywhere, displacing native (and even desirable, non-native [sorry, Equil]) flora. (:o)

The fact that you found seedlings is a testament to the invasiveness of the tree in your climate. It will only get worse the more the tree is planted or allowed to grow, unhindered.

Please pull the Ulmus pumila seedling trees out of their pots, by the stem, and cut the trees into tiny little pieces, and then put the pieces in your garbage bin. If it will make you feel better, you can recycle the tree pieces by adding them to your compost bin, but please allow the tiny pieces of tree to BAKE in the sun for a day or two, just to be sure, before adding to your compost. (:o)
Mike
(can you tell how much I DON'T love this tree?)

Gee, Mike, don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel.

To set your mind at ease, I believe the tree pros have determined that what UCO has is not Ulmus pumila. We're all just waiting to see what it is.

Anyone else care to inspect the photos upthread, to help ID them?
(ahem, treelover Mike)

Oh my, look what happens when I forget to bookmark a thread!

Out of the mouths of babes-

These comments have me rolling on the floor grabbing my ribs and that fill in the blank is sending me over the edge- Oh my gosh, we're talking a depends moment here. I best be off before I pee down my leg.

What owl has looks an awful lot like U. Pumila to me. I say we do some digging in owl's geneology and name all those little offspring after her dearly departed relatives and leave them be for sentimental reasons because after all... the seeds don't carry in the wind beyond a few hundred yards or so which means she can monitor them and pass the torch on to her grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren to monitor and it's not like she'd be doing anything but merely adding to a problem instead of starting one so that's good enough rationalization for me and I think she should let them grow up to be nice big strong U. pumila so that future generations can be saddled with even more volunteers showing up in sidewalk cracks and natural areas. Now that that's settled, when can we start on the geneology search so we can name these little seedlings? This will be so much fun. I had a really bad day at work today and I can't sleap and this is really something to look forward to. Name the seedling!

I think I'll start naming my Buckthorn babies. Terry, we need to start naming your Ailanthus babies too. Oh my gosh, forgot to mention that we've got so many spares we should go and offer them up in the trading forums. Sheesh, everyone else seems to be doing it these days so why should we be left out of all the fun.

See?? I knew Equil would get my analogy. Makes sense, doesn't it Equil? I spoke to the guy (our friend Pete) who can help me get the city to take my beloved tree down and found out they won't help me. So, at least 30 of my dear little seedlings are already spoken for, as 15 will go to Pete's house and another 15 will be scattered around town in various city owned land :)

And hmmm.....maybe I should take at least 15 to Guy's?? If not 15, then at least 3 to name after my husband, my daughter and myself! What a plan......

Actually, I've come up with a better naming plan for me because I've got thousands upon thousands of Buckthorn seedlings here given 70% germinate around the parent plant leaving only 30% to be disseminated by birds and such to other areas.
http://www.starregistry.com/
They've named hundreds of thousands of stars and I think this might be a good place to start. We'd be commemmorating people we don't know but that's ok as we'll have a virtually endless source of names and no need to limit ourselves with a geneology search. Because of the wonderful seedbank I have here, I think this works well for me.

Sorry you're having such a tough time seeing shades of gray here. Must be too busy peeing down your leg!

Thanks for your concern and consternation.
They will remain in their containers until I get a positive ID.

UCO,
Well, the last photo *could* be Ulmus pumila, but I'm not sure? I will post a pic of some Ulmus pumila seedlings and you can compare the two.

If it were me, I would just pitch the seedlings and go out and buy a "good tree" to plant. No reason to take any changes with a "half-breed" tree (now sing a few bars of Cher's song to go along with this post, if you're old enough to remember this song) of questionable heritage.
My .02
Mike

Hi owl,
I have some photos that I took today of one, a known American Elm seedling, and a known Siberian Elm seedling. They are hard to tell apart. The only way that I know of right now (at seedling stage) is the leaves of americana are much larger (about twice as large right now). Although, I have another America Elm that is identical to Siberian Elm. Though it has unusually small leaves, but densely branched for a seedling.
Here is my photo of the American Elm seedling from the American Elm tree on page 497 from Gooey's latest book. I have a big Siberian Elm in the back yard that the other is from. I can attest its an awful tree. It drops dead branches year round, it drops little papery seeds into all my pots. I made sure to keep my Am. Elm pots clear of them.
One good thing about this tree, is it size now. I just measured it with my trusty 100 foot tape measure and it is 12 feet 7 inches circumference 4 feet up. My Deceased Grandfather planted it in 1943. It is quite a prolific monster. I wish he'd have planted an Oak instead.
Will
p.s. This is the photo of the Am. Elm seedling, the next post will have the photo of the Siberian Elm seedling.

And here is the photo I also took today of the Siberian Elm seedling that I potted up from the back-yard monster.
Will

Will, I meant to tell you earlier -- that American elm is now recognized as the Illinois co-champion. So you have seedlings from two monstar trees!

Guy S.