cedar apple rust- how much a concern? ...and an intro

Hello all, I've been lurking for a while reading and learning. Now I feel ready to ask a few questions. Forgive me if these topics have been addressed before. I guess I should tell you that I'm pretty much a novice gardener. This is our second home since my hubby retired from the army. I made a lot of mistakes with the first yard and learned alot. Now I get a do-over with this house. We have a small lot in a new development in Smyrna, Tennessee that had no landscaping and a weedy lawn. I would like to create a wildlife friendly backyard with mostly native plants. We also need screening from our neighbors. I would like to be a member of the Dead Lawn Society. I nearly wrecked my back trying to keep the beastly grass wasteland looking presentable at the old house. So on to my first question....

There are three huge Eastern Red Cedars in the neighbor's yard directly behind us. How much should this influence my plant selection? I would love to have serviceberries, aronias and crab apples. There are a few others I'd like that can get rust too. I know I can get rust resistant crab apples, but I haven't found any serviceberries listed as such. I don't want to hurt the neighbor's trees, especially since they provide afternoon shade and block the view of a distant water tower. Any help you can offer is appreciated.

I think you are getting your pathogens mixed up. Gymnosporangium juniperi-virginianae is responsible for Cedar Apple Rust and my experience with that fungus is that it will only alternate between Juniperus virginiana and Malus spp. Plant your Aronia and Amelanchier.

If you've never noticed any growths on the Eastern Red Cedars that look like this-
http://www.nysipm.cornell.edu/factsheets/treefruit/diseases/car/car_fig2.jpeg
then plant your native crab apples too.

Equilibrium, Thank you for your reply. I am sorry, I grouped all the juniper rusts together. Cedar-hawthorn and cedar-quince rusts are sometimes mentioned in articles about cedar-apple rust. I believe it is one of those that cross to serviceberries. I started out with a general seach on google looking for disease resistant crab apple varieties and that sent me looking up the rust, which started my whole worry. I have never seen those growths on any of the trees in this area. I will plant them. Thanks again.

Been there done that before... worry.

I've got Cedar-Hawthorn rust here. I still plant Hawthorns. In some years the rust is really bad and in other years you hardly know you have an issue. The one nice thing about Cedar-Hawthorn rust for me is that it doesn't kill off the plants. It certainly makes them look unsightly for a little bit but that's about it.

It is good to hear that the rust is not a tree-killer. I worry too much. Right now I'm worried about tree selection. I need small to medium size trees. I think I have already made a mistake planting a Yoshino Cherry. There was a beautiful one in the old neighborhood and I got a good deal(I thought) on a good size tree. The bark is cracked now and there is sunken area on the opposite side. We'll see how long it lasts.

Consider Halesia tetraptera or Crataegus phaenopyrum. Those two are every bit as spectacular as the Yoshino Cherry if not more so. And, they're both natives to TN so you'll enjoy a plethora of feathered friends in your yard.

I like both! I'll put them on the list. I want to plant as many trees as I can. I just don't understand why developers around here cut down nearly all the trees when they build subdivisions. It can't be that expensive to leave some. There is a lovely wooded hill across the street behind one row of houses, and I am dreading the day they start building there. We get cardinals and yellow finches that visit our pitiful yard. It never fails to stop me in my tracks. My husband catches me standing there grinning like a fool. I am almost embarassed.

I just realized you are a newer member, belated welcome. I don't know if you are aware of this but there are a few hot shots over in our Trees and Shrubs forums who are into native trees and shrubs which will be referred to as woodies over there. If you are working on a list of trees that are native/indigenous to TN for your yard, why don't you go on over and post a request for help with suggestions that are native. Specifically let them know that you were over at the Indigenous Plants forum and came over for help. V V is a sweetheart over there and he's your neighbor in KY but there are a host of others in that forum who really know their indigenous plants. Added bonus is that you like critters and nothing attracts the critters like the native plants. While you are at it, you might as well ask for a few native plant nurseries down your way where you will be able to purchase any material they recommend. It's always best to try to purchase as many locally grown plants for your property as possible.

Thank you, I will post over there. I've been lurking for a few months and read several forums- including Trees and Shrubs. I have another week off and then I'm back to college full time. So tomorrow I plan to post a few questions. I won't have to share the computers with the kids as they are back to school already.

Where is Smyrna? It sounds so familiar. We lived a short time in Soddy Daisy, just north of Chattanooga and it seems like I saw signs for Smyrna somewhere........but where??

I would also like to welcome you to DG!

Hello terryr, I am sorry I couldn't get anywhere near the computer yesterday. Smyrna is about 20 miles southeast of Nashville on the way to Murfreesboro. Exit 66 on Hwy 24.

Yep, right on my way coming home! I knew I knew that name.

Hi partlycloudy!

If I'd known you were going to post, I'd have stopped by for a personal consultation. I just passed you coming and going; was in Belvidere on Thursday and Friday. Smyrna! Home of the Saturn plant, right? Is everybody still going there on vacation (like the old commercials said)?

Having traveled that part of the world rather often (since buying plants from select nurserymen in the greater Winchester metroplex), I know that eastern red cedar is pretty common. Anything you plant in your yard will have been seen by local cedars over and over and over and over. You won't kill them.

On the other hand...you can save yourself a world of annoyance if you avoid members of the Rosaceae that are alternate hosts to all the cedar diseases (unless you don't care about the rusts, disfigurement, leaf drop, etc.). There are many very attractive small trees and shrubs in that family that are far less attractive with those diseases. They still manage to function and produce some wildlife value. You did mention small lot, so you'll be seeing these individuals rather close up, so think long and hard about your choices. You can always add these kinds of plants in later, and maybe start out with some species that are less inclined to have these problems. Like...

Viburnum!!! Obviously, that's a whole new thread if you get me started.

A host of other lowly species you might settle for:

Aralia spinosa Devil's walking stick
Callicarpa americana American beautyberry
Cornus spp. Dogwoods
Euonymus americanus Strawberry bush
Euonymus atropurpureus Eastern wahoo
Halesia diptera var. magniflora Big flowered two wing silverbell
Magnolia virginiana Sweetbay magnolia
Rhamnus caroliniana Carolina buckthorn (probably has a different name by now -- darned taxonomists!)
Rhus spp. Sumacs
Sambucus canadensis Elderberry

That should get you started.

Thank you VV. I am not sure about Saturn but there is a huge Nissan plant here. We have lived here a little more than a year. We were up in Clarksville for 4 years.
The soil seems a little easier to work with here. Although I have yet to do a soil test. I know, I will I promise.
I bought two viburnum dentatum last fall. They have really grown! But umm how do I ask this.....I was wondering if the story...and I'm not saying it is true...but do they smell...unpleasant? Might just be a cruel rumor. Mine only had a few flowers, not enough to judge.

Hey, how long would it take you to get to Chattanooga? About 1-2 hours? They have an awesome arboretum down there. Reflection Riding Arboretum & Botanical Garden. And it just so happens they're having their native plant sale Sept. 16th and 17th. It's definitely worth the drive if you can make it. They have the sale 2 times a year, spring and fall. Their prices are really good. I think the most I paid for anything was $5. You have to go! I can get my fix just by you going. And then, go up highway 27, get off at 153, go up maybe a couple miles to Holcomb's. They'll be on your right. If you make it to the stop light with the Walgreen's on your left, you're a hair too far. Stop in and give em all heck from Terry, ya know the one that moved home to IL? lol.... But give Craig a huge hug for me, man I miss that man. And take pictures, lots and lots of pictures!! I wish I could come down. I'd stop and pick you up and we'd go on down......

http://www.reflectionriding.org/upcoming_events.html

Yes, just a couple hours. I would love to go. My DH gave me a membership to Cheekwood Gardens in Nashville, for my birthday and Reflection Riding is on the reciprocating garden list. Man I gotta go! I went to a plant sale at Nashville fairgrounds this year but I arrived a half hour after it started. All the good stuff was gone! I just picked up a few daylilies. I don't know anything about daylilies, but they were dirt cheap.

When we went to the sale, we got there mid morning and they still had plenty to choose from. I just got done talking to Craig, I wrote that above and just had to call him. It's been months since I talked to him. I guess all the hard work I put into our yard down there isn't being enjoyed by the new people at all. Craig said it was a mess. I left them a note on who to contact (him) and where. He would of come out for nothing to help ID plants and tell them how to care for them. He also said that the front gutter over the whole front porch is hanging down and there's a huge rip in the screen on the storm/screen door. He said they must not care. sigh. Want the address? Maybe they'll let you come and dig up the viburnums I had to leave? Not the mention the all the other plants.........

This pic was taken a full year before we moved, I wasn't done. I can't find any of the pics I took when we put it up for sale, of course. Story of my life.

What a beautiful home. Love the porch. The landscaping looks professional. Good job.

That is such a shame. It was so beautiful. I would love to see more pics. I need inspiration.
My old place has been let go too. No comparison to yours, but it was lovely in the spring. The dogwood in the front yard died and the island bed is full of weeds.
I'd go by and take a picture if you want. But maybe it is better if you don't see it like that.

Maybe the Saturn plant is in Springfield? There's a Nissan plant right on the road to Winchester TN, which is what has turned that area on it's head. Like so many old stories, it was a rural agricultural area which produced lots of valuable (but low price commodities) that got pumped up by high-end manufacturing. Now it's got big wide roads and acres of pick-em-up sticks housing and the farmers are wondering what hit them.

As for validating your viburnum vexation...

Atrocious accusations! Arrowwoods ardently affect an aroma approximating aspirations of...ah...asparagus? Anchovy? Asiago?

Well, I have hundreds of Viburnum dentatum around here and they don't bother me. They are not in the class of olfactory overjoyment that Viburnum carlesii occupies, but you about have to crawl in amongst the stamens and pistils to experience them. Not like V. dilatatum, which can provide an odd twist to the nose and a "what's that?" from passing near the plant.

OK, I've tango-ed, rumba-ed, polka-ed, and minuet-ed around that question (all Weigela clones, btw). Don't plant arrowwood merely for flowers, nor any viburnum for that matter. Plant it for the multiple seasons of interest that every viburnum offers, as well as the tremendous contribution this kind of plant offers to the overall system of birds, bees, bugs, and busybodies. You'll have streams of KY sports fans paying to stop in and see that great shrub that emulates the team colors (white flowers/blue fruit!). You'll have waves of winged insects flowing over the blooms, bent on collecting nectar but accomplishing awesome pollination. You'll have squadrons of mockingbirds and cardinals dive-bombing the sapphire clusters when the fruit ripens in late summer. You'll soon wonder why you don't have more and more and more and more.

I could go on. See why you need a separate forum?

This message was edited Aug 23, 2006 7:23 AM

Oh, that was Viburnum bracteatum 'Emerald Luster' getting it's bloom going above. Here's the same plant, being fructiferous.

Wow! Love the berries...or is it drupes? Whats the difference when the birdies love them. If you can suggest a few varieties for me, I would appreciate it forever. Also, do you know of any source for inexpensive plants. Tiny is fine. The soil seems to be good. I'm getting good growth on everything I've planted. My budget for plants is limited- I have teenagers and go to college full time. Musser Forest had some Conoy Viburnum that were very reasonable.

I am glad the scent won't carry, since they are not far from the house. Thanks.

edited for spelling

This message was edited Aug 23, 2006 12:21 PM

I have a few more.......
This is standing on the porch out to the yard looking left

this one is the opposite side of the driveway and was really filled in with the perennials when we moved

this one, on the porch looking to the right towards the road

this one is still off the porch looking more down the sidewalk. The plants in the bed right in front of the porch, between porch and sidewalk, were plants I took with me.....

this one is just to the right, looking at the house

this one is standing at the driveway looking up and into our woody area..........

I wanted to add also, the only reason there's any grass in there at all is because the builder stopped by on a daily basis asking when I was going to plant grass. The ornamental grasses didn't count. So I did a thin strip in front and a small space on the side. But, when we put the house on the market, I was told to sow seed. Broke my heart, but I did :(
Nothing more in the front yard, but a spot on the side and down and into the backyard. Heaven forbid people don't have turf.

Yes, heaven forbid.

That's what I'm going for- less lawn. You did great with the foundation plantings. I like the front beds too. I saved the pics in my folder of ideas. Thanks. We have yet to work on our front yard. I am half afraid to even start. I don't want to end up with something that doesn't work. We have worked on the back yard first because I use it more. We need privacy too. We decided to put up a black chain link for low maintenance. We had wood at the other house and didn't like it much. I want to fill it with trees and shrubs all around a small central strip of lawn for the dogs to run on.

The front yard and side yard had 5 randomly sited plants when we moved in. Two large white crape myrtles in the side yard. Don't understand why. Just recently realized that they were poorly planted. The grass covered this area so we paid no attention until I had to water them in a dry spell. One had a half a foot of soil missing on one side! One is planted low. I don't know where to move them. There are two ornamental grasses planted weirdly on the side of the drive and lastly a pink crape myrtle near the front walk on the same side. Bizarre. I did plant 5 helleri (sp?) hollies in the empty front flower bed by the walkway, just to have something in there 'til I figure out what to do. Put the daylilies in front of those with some annuals so it doestn't look bad.

I don't plant anything with any real rhyme or reason, yet I'm always complimented. Thank you for liking my pictures. It's breaks my heart to know that I did all that within less than 17 months, and they're not taking care of it......or the house. They've ripped things out.....

I hope to get some mushroom compost next month, so I'll post pics of what I've done here. The pics I've got are from earlier in the year and I've done more, but I lack in mulch or compost. And I spent all day power washing the front porch, I'd like for it to be painted before I post any pics. And if I can get my roofer back here to take off the awful baby blue in the peaks to expose my 110 yr old scallopy stuff and get that painted.....that would be really nice!

Darn it, why weren't you and I on DG before we moved back home? Do you realize all those plants could of been yours?? I had a really nice tulip poplar (Liriodendron tulipifera) that was given to me at a nursery over in Ooltewah. It was just a baby and I knew I should of brought it with me. It was about 5 ft when we moved.

Yes, it is a shame we didn't know each other then. Your house sounds cool. I love old houses. When I was a child we lived in PA in an old house with servant's stairs, and it had an old fashioned water closet just outside the kitchen door. Three floors and a basement. Nifty.
DH and I were out in the yard collecting soil for a soil test. I think we will be through the beastly hot weather soon and I can't wait to start planting. I hope I can pick up some good deals at the plant sale. I just received three clethra ruby spice in the mail. Yea!

With the exception of the water closet, yep three floors (attic is full and hardwood to boot) and a basement. Craig was 3 sheets to the wind last night, so I didn't get a chance to ask him about the weather. Hot is it? We had a cold front pass thru, so the humidity went way down and it's nice out. Still 80, but nice.

If you get a chance, please go to Holcomb's and see Craig. He's always got some cool things and he's always having sales. Tell him I sent you......and he's expecting a hug, so please give him one for me. Oh last year when my husband was still working down there, he brought back a bottlebrush buckeye that was only $9.99! A gallon pot and it was a nice plant.....my squirrels thought so and chewed it all down to nothing :(

Every time I dig here, I dig up something. Bricks, marbles, tools, a huge piece of concrete, this really cool glass thing that a little old lady told me was a bird feeder for the old Victorian bird cages. She said mine was the fanciest she'd seen, but was positive that's what it was.

Congrats on the clethra!

The only thing I've dug up is construction debris. What have you planted so far? Is your lot wooded?

No...lol...we've always lived on a small lot (built our first house in 82), then move to TN, where we have an acre, then move back home to a little bit bigger lot than we had before we moved! I posted this in another thread when asked what was in my front yard, so I copied and pasted....
I don't have much lawn left. I have stripped it of the sod, and the front yard I've planted about 10 viburnums (native and non native and too many to list), Catalpa speciosa, Carpinus caroliniana (Blue Beech), Amelanchier laevis (Serviceberry), Cotinus coggygria ('Grace' smokebush), 5 Lindera benzoin (Spice Bush), 5 Ceanothus americanus (New Jersey Teas), 2 Cercis canadensis (Redbud), 2 Calycanthus floridus (Carolina Allspice), Lonicera prolifera (Yellow Twining Honeysuckle), Aesculus pavia (Red Buckeye), 3 Joepyeweed (not sure which one), 3 Sporobolus heterolepis ('Prairie Dropseed'), various asters, Vernonia altissima (Iron weed), 3 Aquilegia canadensis (columbine), Heuchera americana (Alumroot), Monarda fistulosa (Wild Bergamot ), Schizachyrium scoparium (Little Bluestem), 1 of the helianthus, and various other perennials I'm not remembering. I've also got from a friend from TN, an unknown mum and an iris. An Arborvitae that came with the house I was told was a Thuja occidentalis, but I've never done a search. I have an obelisk with a Clematis virginiana (Virgin's Bower). Before you think I've got a jungle out there, not yet. We've only lived here for 1 1/2 years. And I bought some, if not most, small plants. I'm talking like my Ceanothus americanus are maybe an 1-2" tall. I think we're going to kill off the grass this fall and seed in the no mow mix from Prairie Nursery. That's what I want to do anyway. Since there isn't much turf left, it shouldn't take much.

There's more of course all along the sides and the back.......let's see.........north side is mostly viburnums, with a few shade loving natives in there, wood phlox and a grass of some sort...BTW, I'm being lazy and not saying some latin names :), south side of house has more viburnums, Green Ash (so the PO said), Corylus americana (American filbert), Sambucus canadensis (Elderberry), Physocarpus opulifolius (Ninebark), Euonymus atrppurpureus (Wahoo), Hamamelis virginiana (Common Witchhazel), Aesculus parviflora (Bottlebrush Buckeye), back yard has Euonymus americanus (strawberry bush), more viburnums, Cornus racemosa (Gray dogwood), Ostrya virginiana (Hophornbeam or Ironwood), my luverly Ailanthus aka tree of heaven (or rather h- e- double toothpicks) which needs to go bye-bye. Also in the back I have a mini prairie that has lots and lots of native perennials and grasses (which I can't remember half of). Oh I have a river birch from Kevin and a hawthorn of some sort from Guy in the back. I have another Hawthorn of another sort from Equil that I cannot remember what it is. She gave me 2 I need to find homes for. All this on a lot that's something like 62x130 with a house and a detatched 2 car garage! We live in a town of 7600, my hometown, and we're a block off Main St and actually just 1 block south and east of being in the middle of town. And I love it!!

All I can say is WOW! How does that all fit? Gives me hope for my place. Our lot is about 90' x maybe 130. I have to look up the depth. Going to cut and paste your list. I need to learn to start seeds and root cuttings. My BIL is selling his little truck so we are buying it for our son. Sigh. The upside is we'll have a truck at our disposal. Downside- less money for plants!

I forgot, also on the north side is a Itea virginica (Virginia Sweetspire). It all fits and hopefully looks like it does in person when all grown up as it does in my head. I'm not good at starting seeds, although I've certainly tried. I typically buy just 1 plant. I'm waiting for those plants to get some size so I can divide them. Some, I got at a native plant sale and only cost me $2 a piece, which to me is very doable. I have some bare spots waiting for the divisions or hopefully they reseed themselves and do a better job than I did and I can move those around. Others were given to me.

When we lived in TN, we both drove Mustangs. Ever tried to fit a tree in a mustang? I didn't have my dads pickup at my disposal, so I drove home (here), where I know the people and trust the people, and traded my husbands Mustang (coz mine is just better) for a Ford Ranger. We've still got it though my husband hates it :)

Last spring, somebody, I'm thinking Prairie Moon, was having a sale. I got perennials again for anywhere from $1.50 to $2.00. I even got a viburnum dentatum for $2.00. All are doing great! Dare I say I've learned patience? lol........

I'll have to check Prairie Moon. I love sales. I am not sure what can be divided. Can you divide shrubs that spread- like red twig dogwood?
Mustangs, I wish. My husband drives a Mazda 3 and I drive a 10 yr old Nissan minivan. You wouldn't believe all the stuff I have crammed in the van. Everything from a washing machine to paving squares to half a soccer team:-) I love it. It will be good to have a truck though. We want to get bulk mulch and stuff. We are using pine needles right now because they seem to last a little longer than the bark mulch.
What would you say are your 'must haves'?