Our Hearts Are Heavy

Metairie, LA

In metro New Orleans we have a bike path/jogging path/park that runs the entire length of Lake Pontchartrain in Jefferson Parish. It was established in the late 1970's and everything done had to be approved by the local levee board and the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers. The Corps encouraged us to plant trees and shrubs because they would "hold the soil." We spent years planning and planting on this 10 mile stretch. About every three miles was a small area with benches, bird baths and flowering shrubs. We planted live oaks and trees that would feed birds. It was legislatively declared a Bird Sanctuary. In the 1980's it was declared a National Trail. Hundreds of people enjoyed it every day and senior citizens met regularly at one of the little rest areas.
Yesterday, the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers sent a tree company out to begin cutting down every tree between the lake and the levee on the Park. They consulted no one.
We can only grieve for the beautiful oaks, cypresses, and other magnificent trees that lived valiantly through the hurricane winds of Katrina, only to be slaughtered by the Corps of Engineers.
This is a photo I took recently.

Thumbnail by liveoaklady
Hendersonville, NC(Zone 7a)

What exactly was the point of that bureaucratic decision? Without the trees, the levee is even less protected; not to mention the pointless destruction of so much life and beauty. Could the government mess up your area any worse if that were their aim?

Beautiful, BC(Zone 8b)

I agree. Sad to hear.

Presque Isle, WI(Zone 3b)

LiveOakLady, Did "they" give any justification? Any "science" to sustain their decision? Ken

Illinois, IL(Zone 5b)

Has your friend Sheila at the T-P heard about this? Sounds like it's time for an exposee while there are still some of the trees remaining. And maybe it's time for you to pack your heat and get out there in front of the dozers!

In the 1970s the Corps initiated a PR campaign. They had all their people wear buttons that said "The Corps Cares." I worked on some projects with a couple of their biologists -- one of them defiantly had used a laundry marker to add an "S" in front of "cares."

. . . I suppose he's in residence at Gitmo these days . . .

Guy S.

Chesapeake Beach, MD

It seems to me that I heard or read some Corps flack describe a problem with vegetation on levees at some point over the last several months. This gist was that trees were not the desired vegetation on earthen levees because they undermined the integrity of the structure. If I recall correctly, the explanation went something along the lines of when the trees are uprooted in a hurricane as a result of wind and saturation, they take big chunks of the levees with them.

I'm not sayin' this theory is scientifically supported or that I even believe it ... it's just what I recall hearing.

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

Get a court order issued to stop them cutting any more.

While MMD7's points about taking big chunks of levees is true where the trees are at the top, this clearly isn't the case in the photo - no breaches would be made if any of those fell down.

Resin

Metairie, LA

I don't think Court Orders pertain to the Corps. They seem to be immune. However, I have gotten one of our local government officials to ask the new director of the Corps in New Orleans to cease cutting until they explain a scientific reason for this. Half of the live oaks have already been cut down to stumps of 3 feet but at least perhaps the other half can be saved.

Vicksburg, MS(Zone 8a)

Before everyone gets on the "let's bash the Corps of Engineers for thoughtless, wanton destruction", a little google search using "trees" in conjunction with "dams" will provide everyone with more than enough information as to why trees should never, and I repeat, never have been planted on the levees to begin with, unless one values the lives of trees more than the lives of their fellow humans.

Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

Copperbaron,

Could you save me the effort and time of googling and give me a real quick synopsis? I vaguely recall someone in another forum adamantly opposed to trees on earthen pond dams, and they gave some good reasons, but for the life of me I cannot remember them.

Scott

Saint Bonifacius, MN(Zone 4a)

I too seem to recall somewhere in these forums that long tree roots can provide tiny opportunities for water to run along their length. As with any running water, the crevice can become larger and, well, you get the idea.

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

Quoting:
information as to why trees should never, and I repeat, never have been planted on the levees


True. But this doesn't apply here - the water is below the level of the surrounding land. If it had been a high water level with trees planted on the slope down to the land dammed off from the water, then it shouldn't be planted with trees, but that isn't the case in the photo.

Resin

Chesapeake Beach, MD

It is, of course, not true that the Corps or any other governmental agency can't be enjoined (they're certainly not immune), but that's a long tedious explanation of administrative law and I'm just not going there.

They're not my favorite agency, but you can usually get explanations out of them if you figure out how to ask and they occasionally can be made to at least hear your concerns if not necessarily listen to reason. Plus, the Corps can be right useful if you're trying to stop a developer who doesn't have the right section 404 permits.

The local government inquiry is a good idea. For that matter, there's no reason you can't pick up the phone yourself and call the regional office.

Vicksburg, MS(Zone 8a)

Resin,

I have always been impressed with and acknowledge your encompassing knowledge regarding trees and botany, but I respectively submit in regards to this matter you are completely unaware of the issues involved. The levees, although it might not appear to be so in the pictures that liveoaklady showed, are meant to protect the land on the other side of Lake Ponchatrain from the flooding that would occur during a storm surge generated from the Gulf of Mexico during a category 3 hurricane, or greater (actually, a category 4 or higher is specifically not included in the alleged protection), and not during periods during which liveoaklady's pictures were taken.

In a category 3 or higher hurricane, the water in Lake Ponchatrain will be decidedly higher than the land on the opposite side of Lake Ponchatrain, hence the need for the levees, hence the flooding during Katrina. Any, and I emphasize, any breaches in the integrity of the levees are a potential route to catastrophic failure of the levee system during periods when the water levels in Lake Ponchatrain are higher than the land on the opposite side of the levees. To not remove the trees planted in the levees could easily be construed as wanton disregard for the lives of folks living on the opposite side of the levees with regards to the lake, and I would vigourously defend anyone who made that assertion after being flooded by a levee failure that could be shown to be a result of the tree plantings.

Bottom line, as stated earlier - you never, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ever plant trees on a dam or levee. To do so would be welcoming a catastrophic failure of the dam or levee.

Copperbaron, a.k.a. pterostyrax on Gardenweb

This message was edited Jul 16, 2006 12:45 PM

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

I can understand the theory about the tree roots. They do take out an enormous chunk of earth when they fall. This looks like a more appropriate place for native grasses such as sea oats which spread by rhizomes and help hold the soil together.

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

Hi Copperstyrax - point taken, but I still don't think these trees are any cause for safety risks. If they had been at the top of the slope, right of the horses, then yes, they would be a problem as in uprooting they would breach the levee. But in their current situation on the flat at the base of the levee, their uprooting wouldn't breach the levee. I'm sure the people who planted them knew all the risk factors, and planted them sensibly (as witness there aren't any trees on the slope)

Resin

Vicksburg, MS(Zone 8a)

It is not about trees falling or uprooting. It is about when the trees die and the roots are then subject to rotting,leaving behind pathways for water to make its way through the levees during conditions that are likely to undermine the levees.

The root dissolution provides a pathway for water to seep through the levees. Failure of the levees as a result of water seepage through the levees did not occur during Katrina, but is a very likely cause during future conditions, hence the removal of trees on the levees by the Corps of Engineers.

This is a good thing. Any protestations to the contrary shows how little one knows about the subject raised by liveoaklady, who I greatly admire and hope all is well in the future. We have been to New Orleans at least a dozen times since Katrina and will spend time there at least as much in the next few months.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

If I lived in New Orleans I would think my best friend was a corp of engineers. And of course the whole country who is paying for those levees. Sorry LOL but the corps are just doing what keeps the wall there. I'm sure they learned a lot with Katrina.

Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

Hey Ptero! Good to hear from you. I was wondering how you how/if you survived Katrina. (I thought you lived in LA). I assume Vicksburg is far enough up river that you managed okay.

Scott

(Zone 6b)

I had just a couple of ideas when reading this thread.

1) My understanding is that much of the land on the other side of these levees is below the normal water level of Lake Ponchatrain(and sinking more every year) hence why the water didn't leave on it's own after the levees failed and why the flooding was so catastrophic.

2) Cutting down these trees would lead to their roots dying and thus lead to this seepage that could undermine the levees. Unless of course the tree roots haven't grown long enough to make that a serious concern so far.

Am I missing something here, or mistaken?

Presque Isle, WI(Zone 3b)

It seems to me that much of New Orleans, the Delta Basin, and much of coastal America for that matter is in an untenable situation as to nature vs habitation. Is it just me or does anyone else see all this post crisis work and money spent as basically a band aid on an open wound. Sure, Mom Nature can spank just about anyone, however what ever happened to plain good sense and the old admonition: "Once bitten, Twice shy". Ken

Vicksburg, MS(Zone 8a)

Kman, you have it correct. They are removing the trees while the roots are still manageable, hopefully. Also, much of the land on the landward side of the levees surrounding Lake Ponchartrain is indeed below the water level in Lake Ponchartrain. I was just unsure of this location, hence my conservative assumption that the land on the landward side of the levee is above the lake level during "normal" times.

Decumbent, I have homes in both Mississippi and Louisiana.

Ken, "hope springs eternal", or "good money after bad". Take your pick.

In case anyone is interested, none of the earthen levees surrounding New Orleans failed, and these include levees that go back to the original settling of New Orleans. For those of you that want to read a moving account of Katrina and what took place before and after the hurricane, get the book The Great Deluge, written by a history professor at Tulane. Put on Aaron Neville's version of Randy Newman's Louisiana 1927 while reading it and make sure you have plenty of Kleenexes. I found a lot of faults in Professor Brinkley's account of what took place, but much of it is just plain mesmerizing.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Gee no levees failed. What were the pictures of water ripping away levy like structures a couple of days after Katrina. Government propaganda? I think we should build a reverse dam on Ponchatrains inlet and hold out the Ocean. We could start it in Texas and run it to the panhandle of Fla.

Metairie, LA

Levees failed because they were built with the wrong soil and the sheet pilings along the canal levees had not been sunk deep enough. They were built by the Corps. No trees were involved.
I have been warned not to air my views on this venue, so I am attaching a photo of a live oak someone sent me today for your enjoyment.

Thumbnail by liveoaklady
Metairie, LA

Copperbaron, none of the levees on the Mississippi River failed but the levees on the 17th Street Canal, the Orleans Avenue Canal, the London Avenue Canal and the Industrial Avenue Canal all broke beginning at 9 a.m. on the morning Katrina hit New Orleans. That is what caused all the flooding with the water coming in from Lake Pontchartrain.
I have photo galleries at www.pbase.com/september morn if anyone is interested in looking at the Katrina devastation (and some good things, too) on my gallery "Katrina Was No Lady".

Metairie, LA

www.pbase.com/septembermorn

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

Wow Liveoaklady, where was that photo taken?

Metairie, LA

That photo was taken near Cecilia, Louisiana. The man wanted to know if it is eligible for the Live Oak Society. Isn't that a spectacular root arrangement.

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

It really demonstrates why they are so stable.

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

Keep a horse in there - that would make it even more stable

:-)

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

I'm sure it would LOL

Glen Rock, PA

I too question the "value" of clearcutting. Is there any study, an observation with documentation or something else that would prove the theory of the roots decaying and letting seeps in? I assume that old levees, the ones from colonial times, were not mowed and kept bare, and somebody wrote that the held. Roots occur in the top few feet of dirt, so are these levees merely dirt loosely piled on unprepared ground, or do they go down several feet as would seem necessary.

Isn't this the same Corps of Engineers that finds dredging the upper Missouri River economically viable, when time after time it has been shown that the value of the few grain barges that can then navigate the deepened river are worth less than 1/2 the value of the fishery it supports? The releases of water from upriver ruin the river for spawning, create artificial, unseasonal high waters, and basically make it unfit for anything but shipping a few barges of subsidized wheat in the summer. But the Corps were found to be falsifying data to support their point of view. Wouldn't trust them, wouldn't be prudent.

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

The term is called "piping"; anyone with an engineering background can explain it. A quick google should bring up info. CB gave a pretty concise description of what happens and how. Anyone with a failed farm pond dam will vouch for it. I imagine the very old levees absolutely were kept clear of woody vegetation. This lesson wasn't made up by the USACE; it dates to ancient times (might take a gander at much of Netherlands, and other countries that rely on shipping with large cities near rivers).

I think this is the same USACE that is managing to keep the flow of the Mississippi River in its channel flowing down through Baton Rouge and New Orleans, instead of shortcutting and taking over the Atchafalaya River channel and drying up NO as a port.

Maybe LOL or CB can shed some light on that...

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

OK, I couldn't resist/wait. Here's an example from local knowledge:

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/watermgt/we/floodprogram/Floodlines/Fall1998.pdf

See page 3: Vegetation Control on Earthen Levees

I bet everyone who experienced the excess precipitation of the last month up in the Delaware and Susquehanna river valleys were pretty happy to have had intact stable levees maintained by these folks.

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Last link from me; note how many times "overtopping" is mentioned in the testimony as the cause of levee failures.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/11/02_levee_testimony.shtml

Piping is even mentioned.

Glen Rock, PA

"I think this is the same USACE that is managing to keep the flow of the Mississippi River in its channel flowing down through Baton Rouge and New Orleans, instead of shortcutting and taking over the Atchafalaya River channel and drying up NO as a port."

Exactly. They are the ones trying to nail down a river. Preserve the status quo. And spending a lot of money doing the same ole same ole. Instead of trying to restore wetlands by allowing some drainage through the Achafalaya, they have insisted, until now, on preventing even a single drop to go through the slough. There has been, in the last few years, controlled experiments allowing some flow through at peak times, and the results were positive beyond their belief. No on-going program that I know of will have any chance of sucess as long as the mentality if to maintain the river the river only in the bed it now occupies. Granted, development and economic interests won't allow a fre-flowing river. But using the river as a cheap dredge has it's cost too.

The link you provided does mention piping, exactly one time. The dikes along our rivers are small compared to what I saw in LA. Many of them consist of a low earthen berm in the downtown areas of some of these PA towns. Far far from the massive earthworks along the Mississippi. The main thrust of that link was to point out that if you allow vegetation to grow, you will not be able to inspect the face of your levee. Again, if trees are grown at the foot of a well built levee, the roots will penetrate how deep? If the original soil line is dug out, and the right kind of fill used, roots will barely scratch the surface of the soil. Trees grown at the bottom of a 35ft levee go how deep? Piping will occur on small dams, of course, but one can hardly imagine a situation where a wall of dirt (from the underground base) 40ft/12m tall and how wide? is penetrated by tree roots. Groundhogs have lived for decades in pond dams around here, and although some do fail, most dams remain.

How has it been established that the levees were mowed? Mechanical means were only invented in the very late 1800's, before that, hand scything was used. Any records of payments to scythers? Animals would have left the woody plants. Gangs of prisoners maybe?

I am very skeptical of the Corps because they have been shown to be a politically molded governmental agency with an agenda. Time after time they have been scolded by Congress in public hearings, and some of their top brass was removed for lying. Many projects that they fight for are of dubious benefit, politically connected, redundant and the result of turf battles.

It could very well be that piping is a worry in these particular cases. But I would not rely on the USACE to tell me without some other source of info. They have lied too many times. They have a vested interest in maintaining ever higher, wider and longer levees. Experience has not taught them that sometimes they can work with nature instead of always trying to muscle it into doing what they want.

In this case, they have not proven a single instance of piping, but want to cut down all the trees? Where are the instances of levee failure because of trees. If maybe, mights and could be are used to define a problem, then they should just abandon the whole thing because what if the city floods in spite of their work? What if ship wakes are shown to be crumbling some levees? Should the ships be banned? The cause as much damage as trees.

Metairie, LA

A few weeks ago the Corps presented a 900 page report in which it took the blame for the failed canal levees. However, that said, it is hoped that the proper soil and the proper depth pilings are used from this day forward on the levees to prevent something like this ever happening again. It has been a terrible time for us in the New Orleans metro area; we have buried too many friends, we have lost too many of our houses and personal belongings, and most of all we have lost our faith in the very government that is supposed to protect us.
Our newspaper this morning carried more photos of trees no more than 5 inches in diameter that were cut down to 3 feet stubs along Linear Park. The paper is full of editorials and letters to the editor about it. My letter was in on yesterday.
I must make up my mind to go forward. Perhaps they will let us plant shrubbery in the Bird Sanctuary and National Trail. And, the Druid in me says, God bless the little live oaks who lived so valiantly through 140 mph winds of Hurricane Katrina only to be felled by a chain saw.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

I don't agree that the government is to protect us from natural disasters that are inherent to the area. Here in Montana we have forest fires and they burn freely until they consume the fuel. Yes attempts are made to "fight" the fire but we in Montana have prepared our land to diminish dammage not to prevent it. I think that blaming any federal entity for the failures of Katrina are unfounded because of the nature of Katrina.
OK I am taking this thread off of my watch due to the political issues I raised. Sorry Dave.

This message was edited Jul 15, 2006 5:13 PM

This message was edited Jul 16, 2006 8:36 PM

Vicksburg, MS(Zone 8a)

I never said no levees failed. What I did say was that no "earthern" levees failed. There is a big difference between the two types.

This message was edited Jul 16, 2006 1:22 PM

Illinois, IL(Zone 5b)

Something must have been edited out while I was away -- I don't see anything political here. It's certainly not taking any political sides to assert that the USCOE has done some great, and some terrible, things in its history. Good engineering is priceless; bad engineering is worthless; and blind, arrogant engineering is less than worthless. Piping is common knowledge and is not rocket science, but it does require some understanding of tree biology to predict.

Many professional engineers, like most other design professions (architect, landscape architect, etc.) occasionally tend to overstep their field of knowledge. I know very few who could be considered qualified to judge the root biology of trees. Even fewer have any sense of social science. Compound this by having decisions made by administrative appointees and bureaucrats instead of the professionals, and you have the results LiveOakLady is reporting here.

Bottom line: Trees did not cause the levee failures -- bad engineering (or lax construction supervision) did. The USCOE should keep anyone from planting trees on the levee tops and slopes, but show a little respect for the folks who, with USCOE permission, planted them in adjacent flatlands and devoted so much of their efforts to improve their community.

I'm saddened by some of the tunnel-visioned responses above from people who should know better.

Guy S.

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