organic meat and produce

Why is it that when I go to buy organic meat and produce, it is so much more money? I find that I can only buy a small portion organically grown for my family. I am assuming it is because the organic farms are small and can't afford to keep up with big monster companies. I am sad that I cannot feed my family in a healthy way without going broke.

I spend a lot of money on fruits and veggies already, and am beginning to believe that there is a plot to kill poor people off by means of cheap, fat ridden food. :)

It's tough, there's no doubt of that. I think the safest and cheapest bet is, where possible, to buy locally from folks you trust (www.localharvest.org or www.eatwild.com). Buying half a cow or a whole lamb this way is both economical (if you have a large enough freezer) and safer. I buy 10 to 15 organic chickens at a time from a local organic breeder at "bulk" cost and freeze those. Likewise, I stock up on either my own produce or that of local farms/friends, freezing and canning where possible. Finally, I stretch things by making broth from the bones of a chicken we've roasted or from beef/lamb bones.

Buying produce and meats regularly from Whole Foods is the wealthy person's option; not mine. And anyway, seems like more and more of the "organic" mass market stuff out there isn't so organic after all.

Zeppy, thank you for replying. I go to the Localharvest and Eatwild website often. P.S. I cannot seem to get to the eatwild site from here, so I will try posting it again:

http://www.eatwild.com/products/index.html

Unfortunately, I live in an old 1840's house, and do not have the space for an extra freezer. The organic farms in this area charge from 6.99/lb. up for meat that is antibiotic/hormone free. It is frustrating. I bought some organic sausage this week at the store because it was the only thing I could afford. The rest of our meat I had to buy non-organic.


I always grow my own veggies or go to Farmer's Markets to buy produce in summer. But I am lucky- we have an income that can support this kind of buying. We are not rich, but we can treat ourselves. Most people in the U.S. can't afford to buy fruit or veggies fresh.


I watched some programs on PBS called Edens Lost and Found and they were fascinating. One was about Philadelphians who were helping their city by planting, painting and generally making life better for the inner city areas. Another show was about Angelic Organics, and it's owner/leader Farmer John. These shows made me want to help my community. But they were on at 11:00pm at night! Maybe I am really upset more about our society's disassociation from the land and our rampant consumerism.

I want to do the right thing, but am forced into lifestyle decisions because of financial circumstances.

Unfortunately, producing these things organically is more expensive for the farmer, so they have to pass on the expense. Zeppy's right though, if you can find your own local sources is the best way to go, grocery stores especially ones like Whole Foods know that they can charge a premium for organic food so you end up paying even more. Getting it from a local farmer may still be more expensive than buying non-organic, but at least then you know you're only paying them for their extra effort.

The other thing you can do, especially on produce, is do some homework on which fruits and veggies tend to have the highest pesticide residues, etc in the non-organic versions. Some produce is especially prone to have pesticide residues in it, and these are the ones that you should buy organic if possible. But for others, even the non-organic ones tend to not have much residue on them so if you can't go 100% organic that can provide some guidance. I know I've read stuff like this in various magazines but of course can't remember exactly where--I would try searching on the internet, or maybe start with a magazine website like Mother Earth News.

That's great Ecrane3. I will try that.

You know it all started for me with some grapes that smelled of sulphur. I love grapes. They are my favorite food.

I couldn't figure out why they always smelled that way. I didn't remember them smelling that way when I was a kid. I looked up sulphur on the net and apparently they treat grapes with it from growth all the way to the market. It helps them stay pest free, and keeps them from rotting or something. No one says there is anything bad about it, but it got me thinking. All that sulphur..... no one is going to say sulphur is bad if they can get more money with it. Used to be that was what government, law and the press was for, to catch people who took advantage. I just don't think so anymore.

Then I noticed that all the kids in my daughter's Kindergarten have allergies (I mean really severe ones) or Eczema. I mean like 16 out of 21 kids! Either we didn't notice this when we were kids, or something weird is going on. Honestly, please don't think I am a crazy person. I am a reasonable human being with a pretty laid back attitude. I just don't believe anymore that someone would try to do what's right if it was harming people.

And you're wise to not believe that. Unfortunately, the focus is almost always on quantity (dollars, in this case) over quality. I hope you find someone willing to sell you meat for more reasonable prices. I get chicken for 2.20/lb. And freezers can go in a barn, storage building, etc. I've got an old house too... it's certainly "cozy!"

Grapes are one of the bad ones for pesticide residue if I recall correctly, so I would definitely get them organic if you can.

It is a shame that $$ is more important than people's health...I imagine many years from now once they've conclusively proved the link between pesticides and health issues to the point where lawyers can prove it in court, there will be lots and lots of lawsuits, and after that everyone will produce organically. Or is that just my dream world?

I dream of a backlash where everyone just gets fed up with the way things are and goes back to the mom and pop stores and ways of doing things. I keep thinking it will happen soon...

I think grapes are my favorite because of Cesar Chavez, oddly enough. I remember my mother did not buy grapes for a several years when I was growing up, and that made them precious to me later on.

My husband had said once that maybe we could put a small freezer in the garage (the only outbuilding that has electricity). Maybe I'll investigate. We are going to go check out the org. farms in the area.

I have a friend who always says "you vote with your dollars".

Hey,Zeppy, my sister from CA. was just talking up Whole Foods, but now that I read about them, I agree with you. I will have to give her a heads up on that little story. Thanks for the info.

I should be clear: I'm glad Whole Foods is out there making organic and natural foods a choice. I don't think they're the enemy; they have to make a profit, and I'd rather see their chains all over the country than, say, KFC. I just think they're the easier choice for those with lots of income, and for those who don't have time to "put up" food. I certainly use them for occasional things like imported cheese/olives, and bulk organic grains and cereals, etc. But for meats and produce, I prefer to go local if possible. I hope you find a freezer. They're not too expensive, and they save a great deal of money.

Grapes are not so bad if they're grown in the U.S. The ones from South America unfortunately have much more pesticide residue. I use the following list to guide my purchases of conventionally grown veggies.... I get the "dirty dozen" organically, and other veggies maybe not.

"dirty dozen"? list?

Hi Ivy1
Do a search on your general area for organic farmers. I understand Mystic, CT may not be farm country - but maybe there is a place within some reasonable distance that you can stock up at. I found a co-op of about 100 organic farmers in central OH that sell direct to consumers. You have to call in advance and some of them are a few hrs away but if I was loading up the freezer that would be ok - probably an interesting field trip...

A freezer makes a big difference - see if there is some way you can fit it in.

Tyson and some of the other big regular poultry producers voluntarily stopped feeding hormones to their chickens recently making that meat much more attractive to my way of thinking. Look for it in the regular store - its marked. Chickens get respiratory infections very easily and if kept in large flocks almost have to be fed antibiotics so I don't think there's a way around that unless you find someone who has free range chickens to sell off their farm - which is what I did last year - bought 40 chickens from an Amish farmer and had them butchered and then just froze them in plastic bags. Once you've eaten a real farm raised free range chicken you will be amazed that they have a flavor that is wonderful. Grocery store chicks sadly are missing that.

I also happened upon a local woman who sells totally organic eggs. I never knew that eggs would keep up to 3 months if packaged so they don't dry out. I put the boxes of eggs in a plastic grocery bag and keep in my spare refrigerator till I need them. I buy 4-5 dozen at a time to save trips.

I made a trip around to all our local grocery stores in search of decent beef - that didn't cost $8 a lb for hamburger. What I found out was that one of our local chains contracted with beef farmers to provide all their meat - which is hormone and antibiotic free. But they aren't allowed to call it organic because they don't keep track of what goes into the pastureland and other food sources. So if they buy some grain to feed - the grain might not have been organic - which means they can't call the beef organic. Their meat is great and its a little more expensive than regular beef - not much. Certainly less expensive than certified organic beef which I cannot find here except like Laura's Lean Beef which is frozen patties that taste of freezer burn in my opinion and cost a fortune.

Thanks for the heads up on grapes -I didn't know that. ouch!

I really appreciate the info, alyrics. great idea about the local beef! And I did not know about Tyson- that is good news.

I find that organic fruit and veg. last much longer for me tthan regular produce. The general public doesn't really know that until they try some. I would have thought it would be the other way around, but when you realize that they are holding the regular produce for weeks in shipment, it makes sense.

produce goes so fast around this house I never get the chance to test it-LOL

LOL! We go through a lot here, too.

Zeppy, I do the same thing with chicken and turkey bones. When I have chicken, I freeze the bones. Then when I get a lot I boil them for soup. I got into the habit when I was poor. I mean, like, really poor. I also will get a Thanksgiving turkey on special, eat my fill for a couple days, then cut up and freeze the rest, bones and all. Throughout the year I take out some to make stew out of it.

I think one of the reasons that the nonorganic meat is so much cheaper is because they cut corners. If anyone hasn't read Fast Food Nation, I really recommend that you do. When I was in the midst of reading it, the Con-Agra facility here in the state had to do a recall of tainted meat.

I haven't eaten a hamburger since.

I shop Whole Foods as much as I can afford. I like the store, but quality is more expensive.

Thanks for the info on Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser, White Hydrangea. Here are some other books about food in America:

Food Politics : How the Food Industry Influences Nutrition and Health (California Studies in Food and Culture) by Marion Nestle

Don't Eat This Book: Fast Food and the Supersizing of America by Morgan Spurlock

How We Eat : Appetite, Culture, and the Psychology of Food by Leon Rappoport

Fat Land : How Americans Became the Fattest People in the World by Greg Critser

Hi!

Sorry to butt in. I moved from England to th eUS last year and the thing I most miss is that in England, the big chain supermarkets all have an organic sections and you can get a big variety of meat and produce. There are lots of choice with lots of types of fruits, veggies and meat.

Here, there is nothing similar. i go to Wholefood market but it is soooo expensive I can't count on it for my everyday cooking.

Here in the Northeast we do have organic sections, and they do seem to be getting bigger..... but it is still very expensive. I guess we are lucky.... I really feel for you, Spider07. I think Europe in general is far more forward thinking than we are; we just consume (on every level).

I was wondering what had happened with Jamie Oliver's plan to overhaul the school lunch programs here in the U.S. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought he had worked wonders in England, and was planning to help U.S. schools serve healthier foods. Maybe not necessarily organic, but better than hamburgers and pizza.

After reading about Fast Food Nation this morning, I did a little check on my cereal boxes in the pantry. Discovered that only Cheerios and Rice Chex are without corn syrup. Kashi doesn't have corn syrup, but does have something called brown rice syrup. Special K, Rice Krispies, Total and Kix all have corn syrup. It's really sad when you think you are starting your kids (and yourself) off right, only to find that you are consuming huge quantities of corn syrup. I am getting mad!

OK, I found this website- haven't read it yet, but it looks promising.....

http://www.feedmebetter.com/

Here is another really exciting article:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/school/school-lunch.cfm

Here is a website that can help in the search for decent food for our kids-

http://www.sustainabletable.org/shop/

Thank you very much Ivy. I am going to check them.

I did not watch his programme so I can't comment but england has had obesity problems for some time now. Some schools do healthy lunches but most of the kids just want to eat rubbish. There are not as many fast food outlets as here but they are getting there. Peeps are addicted to chinese take outs and other food full of fat and sugar. A great proportion ofkids are overweight.

I have used http://www.localharvest.org/ to find local organic produce/meats etc. Thanks for the links!

We are lucky, a woman I work with has a farm that raises grass fed steer so I know exactly where they were born, what they eat and who raised them! We are buying a 1/4 cow this Sept.

-Kim

Edited to say Farmer John of Angelic Organics has a cookbook based on vegetables and the order they come into season. Farmer John's Cookbook: The Real Dirt on Vegetables

This message was edited Jul 10, 2006 2:30 PM

Hey, Kim! Thanks, I am really interested in Farmer John. Great idea to have a calendar based cookbook! I definitely want that book.

Spider07- Last time I was in London, I was really surprised. I had been there about 20 or so years ago and loved it. We went back in 2000, and it was like the U.S. had taken over. There were Kentucky Fried Chickens, and Tower Record Stores everywhere. I was a bit dissappointed, but I am really sad that our eating habits have invaded England and the rest of the world. We are going to have to do a lot to counteract the bad karma we are letting loose!

Here is an article on the dilemma of Organic shopping.....

http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/articles/060515crat_atlarge

Yes Ivy. I hope we can do something about it. i hope it is not too late.

thank you for the links.

Sorry to keep posting but I am obsessed with trying to fix our society right now. I am so upset with our wasteful, money-power oriented country. I know there is a way to change it....

Ooops. Slipped into politics :}

I go around the grocery store and look at everything on display, and I wonder to myself how much of it qualifies as real food. When you consider the chemicals used to produce it, the nonorganic stuff it's packaged in, the amount of transfats, simple sugars that's put in stuff. Then there's just plain junk, that doesn't even try to be food.

I'm not trying to be a "more organic than thou" type person, but I've been reading up on a lot of this stuff and trying to make better choices in my life. I just read An Inconvenient Truth by Al Gore. Being a science major and a long-time environmentalist, it didn't tell me a lot that I didn't already know, but it did a wonderful job of presenting it in plain language. And this is a wonderful time to be promoting it. Lessee, it got up to 107 degrees today...officially. Hard to argue against global warming when you're sweltering in record-breaking heat. ;-)

And people wonder why we're all so fat. Part of it is the vast amount of food that's available. A lot of it is simply poor food choices. But that might not be the whole picture. I've been reading about how a lot of the chemicals in our environment--and not necessarily dangerous chemicals like DDT--have an effect on our hormones and our metabolism. We're self-medicating ourselves, in a sense. And some of this can result in adrenal and thyroid deficiency, even though it might not show up on a standard blood test.

I think the name of the book is "Are You Feeling Fat, Fuzzy, or Frazzled?"

Okay, off soap box here. Spider, a lot of U.S. grocery stores are beginning to respond to demands from customers. King Soopers and Safeway in my area both offer organic products. I just came from the store and got some organic pasta sauce and organic toilet paper.

WH, the organic farmer where I work for our "veggie share" a few hours each week went organic years ago because he became ill from pesticides. He's seen what they do, up close, and he's done with it.

WH- you don't sound "more organic than thou" at all. Just like all of us, you are trying to make decent choices in a society that promotes bad ones.

Does anyone remember the movie "The Incredible Shrinking Woman" with Lily Tomlin? She uses all these products for beauty, food products, and home cleaning, and as they mix in her system she starts to shrink. She ends up the size of a Barbie doll. I think it is even more topical today than when it was made.

We went to a farmer's market yesterday, and one of the guys who does the organic meat has 2 workers from Mexico. They told him that they worked on these giant cattle ranches where the cows are starved (1000's literally drop dead on the plains), then the ones that are still alive are put in a facility just across the border from us, they speed-feed them for two weeks, chemically pump them up, and fill them full of antibiotics so they can meet standards here in the U.S. They are shipped over the border, slaughtered and put on your table the next day.

The guy says that they make it hard for the organic people by making them file tons of paperwork, so a lot of people give up organic farming because they can't keep up and get in trouble with the regulatory agency. We chatted for a while and he also said that we Americans are being trained to eat bigger and`bigger portions all the time, so of course we have health problems! He also pointed out that the organic steak may be 9.99 a lb, but at the store, the equivalent would be in the fancy specialty meat dept. at 18.99 a lb. I don't know if that was just him hyping his own product or what.

On a happier note I got a salad made of Mache, baby kale, and mixed greens including nasturtiums. It was delicious! We got some orange summer squash, apples (I'll be honest, they were terrible), Methley plums (heavenly), rhubarb, celery, garlic, the last peas of the season, and some rhubarb chutney. . Oh, and I got another tomato plant.

So I spent 40 bucks on all that. Not too bad, considering I've been spending 200 at the grocery store every couple of weeks.

Since I've stopped eating the Special K for breakfast (with cornsyrup in it), I swear I don't feel so much like eating immediately after breakfast. I think that stuff is addictive. I also think I am losing weight. At least I feel better.

I wish if the communal you were going to spout, you would spout facts. Its just like old Smoky the Bear... Only YOU can prevent Forest Fires. Only now its... Only YOU are responsible for what you put in your mouth. Society is not responsible for our actions, nor is big business, nor are Mexicans, nor are corporate farmers. Once upon a time people grew their own food and battled insects and floods and drought and hot weather. Its normal. Coming from a family of farmers I can tell you, its always something. There is never a perfect weather year for all the crops. Don't you remember reading the Little House on the Prairie stories about plagues of grasshoppers devouring the crops and the vegetable gardens? If you don't, then I can tell you from my grandmothers stories those things did happen and they weren't caused by global warming or pesticides. She could also tell you that growing your own food and your own meat is a continuous, labor intensive, chancey, and very hot sweaty job. My dad has a 1/2 acre garden and I've been working in it since I was a kid. I helped both my grandmothers can every kind of food there is. I love the food we get from our garden and my dad's because I know how it was grown and it tastes better than anything at the grocery. I'm so grateful that we can "shop" out in our yard's, but yee gads it is a huge amount of work. My dad was a professional white collar worker but he chose to garden rather than play golf or hang at the country club. I made the same choice following in his footstepts. Sometimes those are the kinds of lifestyle choices that are demanded if you are going to grow your own. And it doesn't look to me like very many people choose to work in the hot sun for months on end to get some beets and cabbage when they can buy nice looking product in 5 minutes at the grocery. That is what drives what is offered to us. Its US that causes this to happen not the other way around.

Ivy - nobody made McDonalds force a bigger burger on the people, the people bought it when it was offered to them. We have a choice to eat at home or choose the smaller portion. We have a choice to tell the kids they can only have 1 activity a week after school instead of 3 so we have time to cook and stay at home instead of running thru the drive-thru. A perfect case in point is the relatively new offering of salads at all the fast food franchises, the 'healthier' wraps that Wendy's sells in summertime, the new announcement that Wendy's is going to an oil that has no trans fats in it. The people want fast food, but a little healthier than it was before. Demand, in turn, causes supply to be created to meet the demand. That is the nature of being a merchant, whether you are selling dates in Baghdad or those revolting chopped preformed breaded and fried chicken things.

Do you know that some of the biggest perpetrators of pushing those offensive giant breasted chickens on us are now offering hormone and antibiotic free chickens? They should be available in your meat case at a regular grocery - look for them or ask. Tyson and Perdue - names we all used to love to hate are the leaders in offering this. And forcing smaller producers to get in line and do the same. Why - because consumers got grossed out by these chemical laden meats and demanded something better. So we can change the world and need to keep demanding what we want, but we can't blame everyone else for what we choose to do.

BTW - The dumbell who told you the government regulates organic producers to death is a total idiot. Think about it. If there were no regulations, everyone could claim to be organic and in fact that is exactly what was happening until the FDA was forced to go in - at the very very loud demand of real organic farmers - and create regulations about who and what is organic. Are you reading about this controversy at all? Its all over the internet and there is plenty of info out there. It is a raging controversy at the moment.

I want organic products to be available and I've asked my groceries and other stores to stock them. I'm also growing my own. I also give up other things in order to live this way. And somtimes I'm painfully aware of the choices I have to make in order to have healthier bodies in our family. Its worth it to me to do this. Ok opff soapbox. Lets all learn more and keep asking for what we need to be healthy.

Hey , I just found out that an organic farm near here has summer camps and work programs for educating kids (and adults) about organic farming! What a great idea. It is a non-profit organization with cows, goats, chickens, turkeys and pigs. They have vegetable gardens, a kid's garden and a community garden. Sounds like a great place to learn how to make better food choices, foster a sense of community, and learn about the land and farming. I can't wait to go and check it out!

One other thing I like about Whole Foods is that they're off the grid. They use 100% wind energy. They walk the walk.

Feeling Fat, Fuzzy, or Frazzled? by Richard and Karilee Shames. That's the book I'm reading right now. A lot of the pesticides and other chemicals that surround us have almost a medical effect on our systems and can cause things like adrenal and thyroid deficiency. That in turn can cause weight gain and fatigue, which is what I'm suffering from. And it's not because I'm a couch potato. I do karate 3-5 times a week, walk everywhere, and, of course, garden! I'm looking at the grocery store shelves with a much jaundiced eye anymore.

Another reason why I want to grow my own stuff. Granted, I have no idea what kind of pesticides were put on the soil before I bought the house, but at least I'm trying to garden with a "light footprint."

Way to GO Ivy! Tell us all about what you're doing. I can't wait to hear - that sounds like a blast.

White Hydrangea - I am hypothyroid and so keep tabs on research in this area. There hasn't been much either I'll tell you. But recently the World Health Organization reported that there is an increase in hypothyroidism in women in the US. This is a serious disease that in extreme cases can even cause death and mental retardation if not treated. It would take a while to explain all the why's and wherefore's but basically I believe that 1) part of the problem is that our farmed soils have become nutrient deficient and we don't take in sufficient iodine. 2) We are receiving soy almost ubiquitously in products we don't know that contain soy. It has recently been demonstrated that a soy protein binds iodine, which renders the thyroid hormone inactive in the body. You need thyroid hormone to work to cause metabolism, among other important functions. I had been using soy milk for years on end because I'm also lactose intolerant. I kept getting thyroid tests that showed insufficient active hormone but nobody ever put it together - I figured it out for myself after reading a piece of research out of a University. My doc was upping my thyroid hormone dosage. I went and bought kelp tablets for a few bucks at the health food store - which are a rich source of iodine and I take one every day. I still use the soy milk but make sure I'm getting enough iodine on the side with the kelp tabs. My energy level boomed and my hormone levels got straightened out. Stuff like that makes me nuts about our health care system.

One piece of advice that I got really helps me shop. That is to shop around the perimeter of the grocery, not in the middle where all the processed foods are.

My mom had thyroid disease , so I hear you!

White Hydrangea- You are doing a great thing in your garden. Keep up the good work! I have been gardening organically for let's see, 7 years and the first two were horrible. Every pest that could come here did! But I realize now that these were indicators that my soil and yard was coming back to life. For all the bad pests and diseases coming in, I got 100 fold in good bugs and animals. Now I have the most thriving, active garden and yard that you could find in a small New England town. My daughter is learning so much about the land and enjoys all creatures of the earth, except for maybe earwigs!

I just recently read "Gardening for the Future of the Earth", which is basically interviews with some of the pioneers of organic farming and proponents of permaculture and sustainable gardening. It's a great book. I also use Roses Love Garlic and Carrots Love Tomatoes all the time when planting- companion planting works!

One thing I feel I did not make clear earlier-I am a stay at home mom, I do not do fast food, and 80% of what I buy at the grocery store is fruit and vegetables. I combine meat, dairy, and staples, rice and pasta in the other 20%. Occasionally we get some chips when we have a cookout. I am not eating junk food all the time, sitting on the couch. I simply want to know what is in my food, and don't like being under the impression that something is good for you when it isn't.

And take a look at the nutritional info of "healthy" salads from McDonalds. One of those can have as many fat grams and calories as a Hamburger or cheeseburger.

Yeah - thats why I put the quotation marks around 'healthy' !
It's probably better than a fast food cheeseburger but I have to believe they still spray it with chemicals to keep it fresh looking, and I'm sure all the veggies that go into it are sprayed. They would have to be to keep it so fresh looking.

My dad grows apricots, plums, peaches and apples at his farm. He doesn't spray and they are always infested with something. I don't know whether the varieties he's chosen are not hardy without the protection of sprays or what. I was just telling him the other day that I wonder how people back in the old days ever got enough fruit off those trees to make it worth while if they had such problems. He didn't know either. But I don't remember my grandmothers peach trees being so bad. These new varieties seem to get rust and other viral infections easily and require a lot of spraying. I wonder what we were supposed to have gotten in exchange for that.

Better shipping across the country!

See the "trees of antiquity" website: lots of lovely heirloom fruit trees. Don't know if they're naturally more resistant or not. Our local farm uses kaolin clay spray (Surround) to protect his apricots; it does a fair but not perfect job. I would also be interested in knowing the "old" methods.

Maybe we've lost a lot of the old ways that were passed down from mother and father to kids- I am amazed at how well some of the companion plantings in my yard are working. Or maybe it is like roses- the old garden roses do a lot better healthwise than the new hybrids, but they just don't bloom all summer long.

I would kill to have apricots, peaches and plums. I was going to plant some trees, but DH didn't want fruit trees- his mother has apple trees in her yard that are so huge you can't pick them, and then the rotting fruit falls all over the yard that he has to mow through. I agree that there is always something- I have yet to get some decent grapes from my arbor.

Carrots love Tomatoes has a chapter on fruit trees with a lot of helpful hints. It says that cover crops are beneficial in between the trees, as are marigolds, garlic (for borers), chives (as a spray for apple scab and mildew), and wild mustard ( this one is invasive, so be sure to cut it down before it sets seed). Strawberries are good planted with young trees, as they are good indicator plants for the health of the soil, and the fruit can be sold until the fruit trees are ready to bear. It also says not to plant oats as a cover crop for Apricots as it inhibits them. Alfalfa seems to be good for everything. I can attest to the benefits of Alfalfa pellets in my garden. They work wonders!

Trees of antiquity is a really cool website- I've looked at it before. Just never been able to order anything.

We will try to go to the farm tomorrow morning. I'll let you know how it is.

When I was a kid we had a crabapple tree. The apples would fall to the ground and rot and squish underfoot, and guess who had to clean it up every year? Uh-huh. I got all the grunt work of gardening, but I never got to plant anything.

I do wonder sometimes how people ever got anything edible out of gardens, especially if they didn't use chemicals. All I seem to grow are weeds, varmints, and flea beetles.

White_Hyd, there's a pretty cool book called "The Vegetable Gardener's Bible" that has been more helpful to me than just about anything else. Maybe you could get it from the library and see what you think. I'd credit it for my first real veggie garden's success.

Hang in there. This is a hard year all around for gardening, seems like.

Ivy - tell me more about alfalfa pellets - is it like rabbit food? Why do you put it down, and how do you do it - do you just broadcast? I was worried about it attracting some kind of critters. How fast do they fall apart in the soil? Just curious - you're not the first one to mention them
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