Composting questions for curious cultivars of compacted crud

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

This is a continuation of Good, Bad, And Ugly forum. I have made the mistake of planting an invasive species of "mile a minute shrub" and had to dig the entire area out and of course all that time of digging and sifting roots caused me to see the potential for another bed. This is a woodland area with 12 to 18" of loam over a clearly layered clay and glacial till. I want to turn this into a woodland garden of Hostas, Astilbe, clematis, and other plants that will need to have soil brought up into the loam and ammendments to hold the moisture into the soil. I have rototilled the sub soil up into the loam as a begining. This is mostly clay and rocks and I have only removed the large rocks. Now I need to build soil and add the necessary amendments. I have determined to use a source of free mushroom compost. Horse Manure and sawdust. I will use 12 to 15 yards of this material over the soil that has been turned. This will be left over the next 9months to attract worms and compost into soil. I will at some later time add Nitrogen, and silage from a dairy in the area (mint and barley). Grass clippings and manure is my source for the nitrogen. After cooking the mixture over the summer and winter The soil will be ready for planting next spring. The mushroom compost will keep the seeds of the area from germinating due to the 8 to 10" of layering. Sawdust will also kill the wanna be roots from emerging. During the next few months I will be collecting large old stumps and dead fall trees to give the area a microclimate of shape and allow an opportunity for the plantings to grow on to these items. This is a picture of the bed. I have 3 very large rocks (moss covered) that I will plan a garden around. All of this will cost me nothing but effort to create a 6000 sq ft new garden bed.

Thumbnail by Soferdig
Denver, CO

Mmmm. Organic matter.
How are those drum/barrel composters out there? They had problems when it was cold so how are they now?
K

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

We who are pure never fall for the gimmick of rolling slime around in a barrell. Only people from Ohio named Sue do that. I just stack it high and move it a couple of times and voila, Lots and Lots and LOTS of Black Gold.

Denver, CO

Ditto, I would need one huge barrell. Do they make 3,000 gallon size?
Kenton

Tonasket, WA(Zone 5a)

Steve, you are so lucky to find a source of free mushroom compost. Some years ago there was a mushroom farm about 25 miles from me and while they were in business I got several bags of compost, but wasn't free. Now there is no place anyways near me for m. compost.

Sounds like you have a good plan for your new woodland garden area. My little woodland garden started in an area where I had previously tried to grow a meadow. Didn't work, mostly weeds. So i started over again three years ago. There were no trees in the area, so it is not yet a woodland garden. But the trees are growing. if I can find a reasonable photo I will send along.

Donna

Thumbnail by rutholive
Denver, CO

(How do, Donna! Thanks again for that fun Brug, the seedpod is a day away from being pickable! Kenton)

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Hey Donna you have a beautiful woodland garden area. It already has shade and when the little buggers get big its hosta time! You know that mushroom compost- the stuff they use for making mushrooms is just sawdust and horse manure and urine. It just needs a little water and a few spores and boom - shrooms. After they use the material for mushrooms they sell it to you in a bag. Just get sawdust/urine/feces at horse barn after a couple of years with moist soaking and you have a similar product. That is free to me and I use a lot of it to start my soil cooking and then add sandy loam and compost.

Denver, CO

"boom - shrooms."

That's funny.

Hahahahahahhahaha :)
ok so i moved my compost pile ( not my tumbler) and it was goey in the middle, the bottom was dirt but very wet, didn't drain well ? so i aired it out and is now ????
what to do i do now??? "aye"
sue ( aka tumbler queen)

Lombard, IL(Zone 5b)

Steve, you're wrong about that 6000 sq ft being free. It isn't going plant itself. Also around here it seems the bedding material is hay or straw for the mushroom compost, but same idea. I pay big bucks for the stuff and you get it free. All supply and demand I guess, and no demand in MT. Did you go on a paddle trip?

Edited to make sense

This message was edited Jun 30, 2006 3:45 AM

Denver, CO

Turn and wait, Sue.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

My paddle trip was posponed to October = no misquitoes and my mom stayed longer than she planned.
Willis you are wrong. I have so many plants to move and split I won't have to buy anything but a few trees. Dogwoods and yes they won't be free. But the rest is only the pleasure of dividing and waiting to grow., I love gardening.

Tonasket, WA(Zone 5a)

My compost piles--containers--tumbler are all working but slowly. Can't keep the stuff moist enough. Tomorrow I plan to spread some more alfalfa pellets on the tops of the piles. Never did think to put some pellets in the tumbler, must try that.

Steve sorry your paddle trip was postponed, but expect it would be more pleasurable without mosquitos.

I still don't have enough energy to do more than try to keep everything wet enough because of the wind and hot weather. Lots of weeds but guess they will just keep growing. Trying to find someone who is somewhat interested in growing plants who would be willing to come and work a few hours a week, but no success there.

Donna

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Donna I have the same humidity (or lack of it) and I wrap all my piles this time of year in plastic to keep the moisture on it and leave a soaker hose under the tarp to wet down the pile every other day and it shrinks by the day to wonderful Blk gold in less than a month. I like the heat for something. Hope you find a helper. I bet the garden is beautiful right now.

Denver, CO

Pity I'm not in WA. That's my business, Donna.
You're where now, Steve?

I turned, therefore i wait. :)
sue

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

I am languishing in the tropical forests of western Washington. In the woodlands of Bellevue Washington. Hitting all the nurseries looking for just one Black poppy. None to be found. I'll be heading out to Flower Farm tomorrow. Oh yes I'm working. You should see the selection of rare trees in Wells Medina Nursery!

Denver, CO

Eyes "green" with envy, mate. Last I was in the Pacific NW, I couldn't get enough plants in my pickup shell.
I have neglected my piles until tonight. They have been mixed and re-wetted. I hope they get some good decomp done before I leave.
K

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Heat + Carbon + Nitrogen + bacteria + fungus + worms + MOISTURE = Colorado Compost.

Denver, CO

=Ridiculously big plants.

Denver, CO

Picture.

This clay soil (all strata visable) has been very deeply amended in past years with composts, etc. (Not how it has structure, but is not yet extremely rich in organics) The soil (everythign you can see in teh photo) has eaten it up quickly and is not much darker, but it exhibits structure and is easy to dig into.

This spring, I put down a thin layer of horse dung and turned it under. Here is what it is now-integrated humus into soil in the top 8". It is like magic. A litte dung turns all that soil black. I post this to exhibit what is being spread throughout the soil, but at this point it is more visable when it is congregated. Just think. As a person continues to add every year and it gets pulled deeper by worms and is broken down, even if it not highly visable, there is good stuff hidden in the soil for ambitious roots to find and benefit from... It still amazes me.
Anyhow; have a look:

Thumbnail by ineedacupoftea
Denver, CO

And I still get a thrill out of checking the temperature of the compost after watering it 18hours before to find it has gone from 60F to 130. Even though I have seen it who-knows-how-many times.
Aa I uniquely pathetic, or do I have company in this mania?

Thumbnail by ineedacupoftea
Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Kenton you are on a big hill at the top very far away from the nearest road and inaccessable by any water craft. No company there. This is my vermicompost of white clay 4 years after only putting wood chips on top and watering. Oh I had planted a clay loving invasive here that I had to dig up.

This message was edited Jul 7, 2006 10:34 PM

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

I forgot the picture. Yours looks good kenton and is ready for more nitrogen and compost to give the worms something to take home to the family.

Thumbnail by Soferdig
Denver, CO

Aha, with roots that deep, that indicates good soil structure. Well done, well done. What kind of tree?

Worms? What do you think I dug the 3' deep hole for? I'm going to fill it up with raw compost!
K

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Hey I never thought of the holland tunnel to get the goodies deeper to the worms. I suppose there are worms who are democrats and need their food delivered. LOL
Kenton that is probably from the ponderosa pine tree nearby. It could be a douglas fir tree below the area.

Denver, CO

The chunnel project broke negotiations with me, so I'm freelance now. (Socialist!) Little oxygen may get down there for roots, but worms still venture very deeply. A very deep hole also makes it such that animals find it too much work to dig so deep for the buried treasure. I wanted to accomodate all of my kitchen waste but not add to my piles that are cooking now and shouldn't have new material added.

It is odd after some time to dig there and not find anything but dark earth. Miracle.

Tonasket, WA(Zone 5a)

Good thread, good pictures.

I have the fellow who works for me dig 30 to 36" deep holes, shovel wide, when i plant my tomatoes. Then fill the holes with raw compost materials up to within 6" of top of holes. Then fill with my mix of finished compost, manure, Barefoot worm castings, 9-3-4 organic fert. Planters 2, and plant the tomatoes. They seem to do well for me . Don't have any ripe ones yet, but they are growing nicely.

Donna

Danielsville, GA(Zone 7b)

Oh boy , do I have a stupid question!! Let me put it this way , I have some areas that are so packed that it is bare , you know like the top of my head , and my DW would say , "just as hard" I have tried to loosen the "hard packed clay", but to no avail , even after putting chips and schreaddings on it to try to soften it. My "S" qustion is, if I dig (at night , so the neighbors won't see me) down 3',and put "raw" compost, (at what stage??) in the hole , it will sofen it up and add humus , from down under to the hard packed ,almost an old road bed , soil.Kenton,you and Steve,may be a God send if this works,and I won't have to "make excuses" for this 20 sq. ft area any more??hugh?hugh??Mike,who never wants to quit learning...

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

I had the same thing in my back yard and tried for years to get it to soil that would support just grass and it did. The only problem is that it was quack grass. I then put a large raised bed over it and added my soil of choice. Yes you can improve that soil by digging but I would do it all and mix in 1 soil to 3 compost and wood chips.

Denver, CO

Piling it deep and putting the hard stuff on top may just squish and compact the compost. This is how fossils are formed of apple cores tha tdinosaurs ate. That has happened to me in soil that is unhealthy and dry. Practically, Dead soil will not eat raw compost.

Do a first-major amendment: while it is moist (but not WET! Stepping on soil, especially wet, makes it very hard)
1. Lay down at least 4" of (composted) compost or manure.
2. Till, fork, or shovel-turn it at least 8" deep. (about a shovel-spade deep.)
This layer will be healhty, which from your description, your soil is not yet. This is shallow, but it is enough to start a topsoil stratum that will deepen itself and eat raw compost. (via worms) Once it eats up that finer stuff (more ready incorporated) it has become a young, healthier soil that has a "mouth" big enough to devour things like woodchips and raw compost. This is when you can post-hole or auger-dig deep holes to bury compost. Make sure to let this darker, new soil touch the raw compost. Continue to "scratch in" topdressings. (Grass clippings are very fast and easy. Leaves in the fall, etc.) Then it gets deeper by itself.

You just might have to do the first breaking-up, because the worms are after the organic material- they will stay in it if they can. Make them go into the soil and do the rest of the work for you!
Your soil cannot help but get better the more organics you add. LikeSteve said, as much as possible.
Kenton

Danielsville, GA(Zone 7b)

Thanks,Guys,I know that makes sense,and I know its going to take maybe 3 Yrs. for it to get where it is (alive), nothing has grown on it since I moved here in 1982,not even honey suckle,believe me I tried.I have always known that honey suckle , when left on a spot, will build the land,I guess it builds soil like we do , only slower. Thanks again,and I will give it that ole colledge try. Mike

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Do One for the Gipper Mike. All effort is rewarding when making soil. You will be so proud of the Dalias growing there in a few years. Well done. This is my problem area over 8 years ago.

Thumbnail by Soferdig
Denver, CO

You will have good living soil the first year, Mike. Awesome soil is after that.

I'll be on a roadtrip for a few weeks. I hope that I am not silly/greedy enough to save and bring back all of the trip's compost material- all the teabags and coffee gounds! I'll miss following your compost stories but will have to be satisfied with tree-watching. An ol' Colorado boy spins his head to look at all of the fancy trees in the midwest.
That, as usual, is just plain glorious, Steve.
Kenton

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Have fun Kenton. Don't get hardwood tree envy. Lots of them where you are going.

Danielsville, GA(Zone 7b)

Steve were those stones placed there , or was that part of the problem?How ever I love the stones,and you have done an excelant job.I wont quit until the soil , is SOIL.Mike

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

All of the picture was created over a rock clay area that I could not ammend. So I built a raised bed over it. all rocks were placed by me in one weekend of FUN hauling the rocks with my big back hoe with claw. Tim the tool man would have said "hrrrrrrumph"

Danielsville, GA(Zone 7b)

EWOOO!! I envey those toys ,and I am going to start my cruddiest area tomorrow , and I know my DW will have some "chin music" about it now being in focus,as opposed to using it as an access drive,whitch hasn,t helped the situation one bit.It is in my back yard,and has bothered me for years,that whole area gets trashy ,because of neglect,and I'm holding my ground on this. Mike

SEE!

Thumbnail by mqiq77
Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Concrete Mike will work well. LOL

Danielsville, GA(Zone 7b)

Thats just it, we have no bussiness doing that it has been like that from day one.M


***BTW,soferdig, that was a "knee slapper"!!!

This message was edited Jul 15, 2006 4:50 PM

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