Is there a prairie forum?

I didn't see one right off hand. I wanted to ask about controlling white clover and quackgrass in my 2nd year short/dry priairie over my septic field. Anyone have thoughts?

burn it. a prescribed fire will inhibit the clover and quack grass and will stimulate your natives. A few controlled burns and your prairie will look great....

but do not just light a match. Learn how to do it properly. Check out the book "how to manage small prairie fires" by Wayne Pauly

Ah yes. Burning. I love to burn. The Wayne Pauly book is excellent, and thanks JoePye! But you got to learn how to burn, and when. Spring or Fall? Supposedly, different times of the year give you different results. My prairie is so small that when I burn, I'm almost standing on top of the fire. I burn spring and fall, switching off sections.

I'd love to see a prairie forum.

Speaking of which. Does any one have one of these-
http://www.flameengineering.com/Weed_Dragon.html

Any other handy dandy tool like this out there on the market to help us burn off some of these garbage plants?

I shudder to think what a prairie forum would be like.

"How can I get some Queen Anne's Lace seed?"

"How can I get some Hawkeeds?"

"I bought a box of wildflower seeds from Wal-Mart last year and planted it. It looked great. This year, nothing is coming back...what do I do? "

"My Dame's rocket/Ox Eye daisy didn't come back this year, does anyone know a source for seed or plants?"

I could go on and on. I think if there is a prairie forum it should be specifically for plants native to the tallgrass and shortgrass prairies of North America. JMO.

I'd like to include meadows. Maybe a Prairie/Meadow Forum.

Prairies and meadows are 2 different things.

Frankly, I'd like them to be 2 different forums.

Well, if we are going the Balkans route, then I think there ought to be a separate savanna forum.

And a glade forum.

And a barrens forum.

And a grasslands forum.

Why not a steppe forum?

But we'll need a separate one for each continent, or ecotone, or boiregion, since this is an international site.

Which reminds me: include a veldt and a Pampas forum.

Yes, they should be separate but I'm desperate. I'll take exclusively Prairie or I'll take a combo forum. Either or as long as it spells it out and we get to discuss actual prairie plants of North America. We do have exclusive rights to claim the Tallgrass Prairie so if other continents have enough interest, maybe another prairie forum could be formed exclusively to discuss plants native to prairies of their continent.

NO, it doesn't have to be Balkanised. There is only one place on earth that tall grass prairies occur. Tall grass prairies are indigenous to North America.

Most of the people on these forums are from North America.

Personally, I'm not interested in "prairie" plants from Asia, or Europe, or South or Central America. The plants from these areas usually cause great harm when they escape cultivation here. People with those interests are free to request their own Pampas, Steppe, Grassland, and Veldt forums.

Barrens are not prairies. They are barrens. Big difference, very different plants. Additionally, savannahs are not prairies. Different plants, though some prairie plants grow well at the edges of savannahs, if they can get enough sun. In North America, restored and virgin savannahs have trees, shade tolerant native grasses and forbs and some very sparse understory shrubs. Prairies do not have trees. Virgin prairies don't even have many shrubs.

Appropos of nothing....Fens are not bogs. Bogs are not swamps. Sedge meadows are rare and are not "wildflower" meadows. "Wildflower" meadows don't naturally exist, except in Europe, where that concept was invented, and they're welcome to it, and I wish they were kept there.

OK, I'm game, let's go for a Tall Grass Prairie forum. I don't know where to go for other ecosystems because Indigenous Plants turned into something sort of strange.

I think people come here to look before paying and don't see a native forum. Plus they can't view this forum without a paid membership. As somebody recently pointed out to me, do you know an indigenous plant nursery? Indigenous plant book? Indigenous plant societies? I don't.......

Terry

Equil, that's my whole point. In this forum, you got a few people who would have no problem introducing/tolerating orange hawkweed into the environment in NA. Because it's a "wildflower!!"

Until the meaning of indigenous plants is clarified on this forum, I think it's going to remain murky. Otherwise, seek out the native plant forum on that other site. It's still the most specific, IMO. Dode

I think its a bit elitist to snub those who may not have the same knowledge and background about Native Tall grass prairie plants that you have.

You want to limit people's questions about prairies(or natives) to only those that you think are appropriate?

This is the internet and these forums are not exclusive, people can post whatever they like and ask questions... I don't mind if someone asks about widlflowers in a can, QAL or orange hawkweed... it gives one an opportunity to teach someone else about how to start a prairie and what plants are desirable.

P.S. I don't really like the indigenous name either....

I had to ask someone "where is the native forum?"

This message was edited May 18, 2006 11:36 AM

Would you think it was elitist to ask for a North American Prairie and Meadows forum? Many people would still ask where they could get seed to Hawkweed, Dame's Rocket, and Queen Anne's Lace but that's only because these are frequently sold as "wildflowers" and people assume they are native to North America. Those questions don't bother me.

No, I don't think its elitist to ask for the forum.

I was referring to Dode's comments that seem to be impatient with questions from those who may not know that some plants labeled as wildflowers are not native prairie plants...

I think she's just frustrated. The Indigenous Plants forum here and the Wildlife Forums sort of turned into something that isn't exactly a discussion of how to create habitat for Wildlife and native plants but more photos and such. I garden to create habitat for North American wildlife. North American wildlife has very specific habitat requirements to be met and if they aren't met... well then extinction is forever. I am trying to create a prairie here and I already have a woodland area as well as a wetlands area. A major portion of my property was once an Oak/Hickory Savanna and restoring that is a beast. I once thought it would take me 3 years to get this place in shape. Ha, more like 10 just to clear out the invasive species that have taken over. I have a lot more to learn. To this day I am still trying to establish plants in the understory of my Savanna. Go figure. Plug along and learn as much as I can along the way. Needless to say, a Prairie/Meadows/Savanna forum would be a good place to discuss habitat for wildlife if it is a forum designated as North American. I think our membership is heavily weighted in that the vast majority of us are North Americans anyway. Backing up to what I was thinking before, I'm desperate and would take a combo forum. I realize there are many biomes but I'm more interested in dealing with the biotic and abiotic factors of prairies, meadows, and savanna but toss in forests and wetlands too. I don't know what to ask for any longer. If we did ask for a North American Prairie Forum; I'd like to see Tallgrass, Shortgrass, and Mixedgrass all combined for sure.

I certainly understand the frustration, I myself tend to go "AARGH" when someone asks about the wildflowers in a can ... or like the thread on GW right now where someone is looking for Dame's Rocket seeds.

Hopefully with much patience, we can teach others what we have learned. I wasn't born knowing that Dame's Rocket was invasive ... I had to learn it from somewhere...

Perhaps the forum we should ask for is Creating and Maintaining Wildlife Habitat or Gardening for Wildlife... or something like that...?

I already asked for Gardening for Wildlife. At the top of the page on wildlife it says

When I told that I garden for the wildlife and didn't understand why it was under the home tab and could they move it to gardening...I was told it was just a suggestion on what the forum was or about. It isn't. It's nothing but pictures. Somehow, everybody that posts nothing but their pictures came onto that thread and wanted it left just as it is. And if you post a question on there, you might get a response, but it certainly isn't Gardening for Wildlife. I was also told that watching the wildlife was fun and not gardening. So, I gave up. There is a photography forum, why not post all the photos there? Or somehow separate them. I think management doesn't garden for wildlife or doesn't understand what it is we're trying to accomplish.

When I first came here, I asked for a native forum. I was surprised that it took a few posters before I was told about there being an indigenous forum. On that thread, one of the first questions asked of me was "Native to where?". I was also told that DG is a world wide forum. I think, so what? So, make a North American Natives and make whoever else wants native forum. Again, I think management doesn't want indigenous to succeed either.

That isn't clear at all. Naturalized things grown beyond my garden, that doesn't make them indigenous. I want to talk about native plants of North America.
Anybody have any suggestions, I'll be on board.

Dame's Rocket??? Those seeds that come in pretty packs with beautiful photographs that claim they naturalize well? Those seed packs that I purchased an embarrassing number of many years ago and broadcast to the wind to pollute my own property??? Would those be the Dame's Rocket seeds that are often included in "wildflower" canned/bag mixes along with other Eurasian species that you are talking about? I finally got rid of every last one of those Dame's Rockets a few years ago. They have a phenomenal germination rate. When one is dumb, one pays. I paid. I did the same thing with Bachelor's Buttons and I could go on. Those have all been removed from the property but every once in a while I still run across a Queen Anne's Lace plant just begging me to rip it out of the ground.

I guess we should be asking for two forums then-

1) North American Prairie Forum- to discuss Tallgrass, Mixedgrass, and Shortgrass Prairies

2) North American Biomes or Creating & Maintaining North American Wildlife Habitat or Gardening for North American Wildlife- to discuss habitat creation for North American wildlife.

Truth be known, I'd still like to have a Soggy Gardens Forum- to discuss the three main wetland systems which are marshes, fens, and bogs. Rain gardens are increasing in popularity and I see a growing number of people interested in creating those and they certainly would fit into a Soggy Gardens Forum. Wetlands and rain gardens don't quite fit in with Water Gardens which is mainly aquatic discussions of ponds, lakes, fish, and water features.

These types of forums probably wouldn't have a lot of activity in them for a while but they'd be there for those interested. I don't know, maybe there would be a lot of activity in them once people learned they were here. Might attract more of the Wildlife crowd and there are a lot of prairie people out there I am learning.

I've heard many people say, after they post a picture of course and I asked what they did to draw in whatever creature they have photographed, that they didn't realize the wildlife forum was a place to discuss it. They thought it was merely for photographs. I think everyone thinks that. You go and check out the forum, and it's nothing but pictures. No talk on creating any habitat, just a picture and what it is. Personally, I have it marked as a favorite, but I don't go there but maybe 1 time every 2 weeks. It just gets old to me to see pictures. I want the discussion of creating. So like Dode, I go to GW. And until they change it, do something, I will continue to go to GW.

The pets forum here is very similar - lots of pictures, very little discussion.

I do know of another gardening site that prefers thoughtful, well written discussion instead of chat speak and picture posting...

They don't have a Native forum or a Prairie forum but they do have a Caring for the Land forum and an Animals forum (along with a gardening, composting, politics, food, entertainment). They don't have thousands of members, and if I were to generalize most members are organic gardeners and compost wackos. Its a polite site and many long time members/frequent posters are given the ability to edit out language or offensive posts immediately.. to keep trolls at bay.

Its a fledging site with great members... if you are interested, I can send you a link. email me at: culversroot@yahoo.com

I don't want to post the link publicly, we have had troll problems in the past. its not a closed site... Anyone can find the site on line, but unless they know what to look for they might have a hard time finding it.

Truth be known, I do like our Wildlife Forum for the photos very much. I enjoy looking at who posts what. The Indigenous Plants Forum fell short of my expectations but it fills a niche too and it is one of my favorites here. The Pets Forum I don't go to at all.

Any wetlands scientists over there? I need help bad with my wetlands and I don't want to hire another engineering firm to come out here to tell me what I already know which is that I'm in big trouble. I am convinced I can do this myself... it may take longer but I can do it. It's just so overwhelming. The quality of any lowland is exclusively dependent upon the quality of the upland so I've really been hitting the uplands hard in hopes of being able to move to the wetlands soon. I've had quotes that are mind boggling to get professionals in here. I really am going to have to go it on my own with the help of those who have gone before me.

To clarify a few points:

and

Neither assumption could be further from the truth.

My husband and I were discussing the other day whether our yard now qualifies for NWF's backyard wildlife habitat status - I'm pretty sure it does. We're happy to enter our fourth season of having bluebirds nest in our yard, thanks to several cedar nestboxes built and erected by my husband and our daughter. We've seen dozens of new bluebirds leave the nest, and we like that we can play a small role in replenishing the bluebird population in our area. We've given a nestbox to another young family down the road (we're all on large lots, so there's lots of room for nestboxes.) In addition to the dozens of bluebirds and other songbirds that stick around our yard, we have racoons, possum, coyotes, deer, squirels, rabbits, turtles, frogs, toads, lizards and snakes that either live in our yard or visit on a regular basis. Spiders build huge webs over our fishpond every night in the summer - and that's fine with us.

Dave and his family live on several heavily wooded acres. I don't know if they specifically "garden" for wildlife, but they can't - and don't - cultivate their entire parcel; my guess is they're play host to far more wildlife than all of us combined.

Do we (I'm guessing that by "management" you mean the admins) want "Indigenous Plants" as a forum to succeed? Well, it's been around longer than most of the posters on this thread have been members, and it keeps chugging along - by any measure, any discussion forum that is five years old and still vibrant is a success. However, it was never intended to be a native plant forum - it began as a wild plant forum, meaning those plants that you found outside your garden, whether native or escaped. We made the concession to re-name it "indigenous plants" as a compromise between the native plant seekers and those who have been regulars of that forum since its beginnings - many of whom are not US residents.

While we may change our mind at some point, I don't think we have any intentions of creating a native plant forum, per se. Why, you ask? Aside from the "native to where?" question begged by that forum name, I would continue to veto one based on what I've seen of the native plant forum "over there." The last time I checked it out (granted, it's been a while), it was still vacillating between mildly snarky all the way to downright political, mean and nasty to anyone who disagreed with the wisdom of the resident hawks. Some of you may disagree with that assessment. Shrug. Maybe your personality is more suited for the tenor of that forum than ours. There's nothing that says you can't be a member of both sites.

Would we consider a prairie forum or another wildlife forum? Sure - as long as there's enough interest AND - more importantly, it doesn't get used as a base camp for a group to form an "us against them" seige mentality - with "them" being two groups: admins, and those naive souls who may stumble into your midst and ask about a plant that you don't think is appropriate for an authentic prairie or wildlife habitat.

I hope everyone can see the distinct difference between the management "over there" and the admins here - namely, that we not only READ posts, but we participate in them as time permits - and we do actually GARDEN. So please don't talk about us as though we don't exist or aren't likely to read your comments.. We're real gardeners and we do read through a lot of posts every day, even if we don't always participate in the discussion.

Since your quotes were something that I said, then I will respond. I didn't say anything I wasn't comfortable with you reading. I garden also. I just happen to garden specifically for the wildlife using native plants. I said it before and I'll say it again, I don't understand why gardening for wildlife is something under the Home tab. The Gardening tab has trees, shrubs, hosta's, daylilies and more. I don't go to any of them, so I'm not sure what all is here.

I did just recieve my sign from NWF. I would like to talk about it. Talk about all the work I've been putting in here. But when I asked about it being moved, it was the concensus that attracting wildlife wasn't gardening. It was fun. People want to show photos of wildlife, but there is no discussion. I don't want to be the only asking questions, so I don't bother. I didn't feel wanted there.

I also feel it's unfair if it's been awhile since you've been to GW, to say people are snarky or downright political. I'm not even sure what you mean when you say it's political. Do people have differences of opinions? Sure they do. But they do here also. Are there people at GW I avoid? Yep. Are there people here at DG I avoid? Yep. Snarky here and snarky there.

Look. Nobody wants DG to be a clone of what GW once was. That isn't what anybody on this thread has said. I just feel like those of us who want to talk about native plants are in the minority. Same as discussing wildlife. I know you said before to ask questions. I like reading other people's questions also. The pictures are nice, but to me, they should be in a gallery area, not the main wildlife forum.

I'm not always the most eloquent with words, but I hope my feelings are coming out and not in a snarky way. They aren't meant that way.

Everybody that's been here and is interested in gardening for the wildlife......please go here and cast your vote

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/582727/

The "other" site has forums specifcally for indigenous plants..Australia, Europe, Asia, South Africa, North America. It eliminates the question "indigenous to where?"

If someone from N. America posts about "where can I get seed for QAL or Orange Hawkweed or Purple Loosestrife or what's the best way to prune my burning bush. Hows about my Japanese Barberry!" Ok, they don't know, and they are gently informed by other DG members that these plants are a problem in the US. Everybody has to start somewhere, it's how I started. No big deal. You learn from other gardeners. I learned by volunteering at state parks, and also by having to spend many hours ripping stuff out of my gardens.

I have many non-native plants here....but they are not invasives. No one will make me give up my irises, or my tree peony, or any of the annuals that I plant.

But the 2nd or third time they post the same question......I'm sorry. That's what my evil twin is for.

This message was edited May 21, 2006 11:08 PM

Is this "other site" Garden Web?

This message was edited May 22, 2006 10:07 AM

Baa, yes, it's gardenweb.

Rhetorical question: Why is it that people can be extremely passionate about brugmansias, lillies, irises, roses, poultry, cattle or whatever...but if you're passionate about native plants, you're "snarky" and a "native plant nazi?." Give me a break.

It would be nice to have a place to discuss plants native to the continent of North America, which also dovetails nicely into gardening for wildlife, and sustainable gardening.

dodecatheon,

"It would be nice to have a place to discuss plants native to the continent of North America, which dovetails nicely into gardening for wildlife, and sustainable gardening."


I agree wholeheartedly. Sign me up immediately. It can still be a very inclusive forum since we all come from different parts of the country and have very different settings.
Pixie

To answer the rhetorical question. Of course you can be passionate about any plant, regardless of its provenance. It's when passion turns to verbal abuse against those who would dare to disagree with you, or who would consider planting anything you deem unfit....well, that's when adjectives like "snarky" come to mind.

A rhetorical question back: Does anyone have actual proof that garden saboteurs on any other continent are using one of our forums to locate your position and secretly introducing their exotic species into your native garden? If so, then a forum exclusive to NA might be warranted.

However, DG is an international site, and as such, ALL our members are equally welcome to participate in ALL our forums. If you want to participate in a regional-specific forum, you are welcome to try out the existing regional forum that is closest to your area.

I think after Terry's snarky rhetorical question...

this will probably be my last post on this site...

Joe, I'm sorry you feel that way. We have lost some longtime members over the "natives"/"non-natives" issue, and several others don't frequent their favorite forums like they used to because they've gotten blistered. (They're the ones who deserve a break.)

It's frustrating and disheartening to watch as members are marginalized and their contributions devalued and derieded because they aren't from this continent. My post is an attempt to put this issue in perspective, and encourage the forum regulars to be more inclusive to all who post here, not just those who are from a particular area or who ascribe to a particular view on certain plants.

Your post did nothing but reply to a snarky situation with snarky response. When you have an Admin tag under your name - you need to rise above the situation and not let yourself be drug down into it.

You have actually lost members over a natives vs. non-native issue. Really? I would like to learn more about what would possibly cause such discorse.

I have not been a member very long because a very long time ago, I looked at this site and didn't see a natives forum - so I didn't join. Someone else invited me to join here...when I told her I hadn't joined because they didn't have a native plant forum... she pointed out the indigenous forum. Because I couldn't read any of the threads without being a paid member I was still heistant to join... so she gifted me a membership. Which was very nice ... and I got the impression that Dave's garden gets alot of members through gifts from other members...

Had I read through the indigenous forum before she paid for my membership, I may have told her not to bother.

Ugh, we do have Indigenous Plants. The definition of Indigenous is well... technically Native although Native to where isn't technically defined. I guess anyone wishing to start a thread could indicate origin as everything is autochthonous to one degree or another anyway. Actually, I suppose the location of the poster achieves this goal in and of itself. I realize we use a different term for Native Plants than does that Garden Web but maybe we could just all go to our forum here and try to perk it up a little bit and attract more of the people who want to focus on North American Native Plants? I feel horrible for inviting anyone from the ListServe over here. I am truly sorry. Would any one still be interested in pursuing a Prairie Forum?

Hello Terry, Would you please consider testing the waters by trying a Prairie Forum for us where Tallgrass, Mixedgrass, and Shortgrass Prairies could be discussed? Whenever the coast is clear would be fine. There are people from overseas who grow the plants that are indigenous to Prairie ecosystems and perhaps this would be a great means by which to help those interested germinating their seed and from there meeting the cultural requirements of their plants. I truly am interested in such a forum. I may have only 5 acres here in Illinois but I have considerably more up in Michigan and some of it is abandoned hay and grain fields that I would like to burn off and seed some day. I have a sincere interest in learning more about all kinds of Prairies. I think there may be enough interest. It might not be the most active forum here but it probably wouldn't be the least active either. Whatever you decide is fine by me however I would be most appreciative if a Prairie Forum would be considered. There are many well behaved members who are not defiant and/or confrontational. I thought the forum on Invasive Plants was going to get out of control and it didn't so maybe there's hope for a successful Prairie Forum for us some day? I've got about 400 photos to upload to PlantFiles and at least 100 of those plants are Prairie Plants. I would be able to start a few threads showcasing some of these plants with the photos I have taken this past week.

Dodecatheon, thank you. I can't find the European or Asian native plant forums at Garden Web, I can only see the South African, North American and Australian sites, am I missing them?

Joepyeweed, there are some threads best forgotten but they do occur.

Perhaps I'm looking at it too simply, I can't see why this can't be a forum where people discuss their native plants regardless of nativity, it always was that forum but I suspect the dwindling interest in posts from international members and then some issues pretty much put paid to some of us (N. American and int members) posting in here anymore. The recent posts are all about North American natives plant species, I don't have a problem with that but I don't understand why people would have a problem with my posting or creating threads about my wilf flower garden or native plant life either should I want to. We've never really been jostling for elbow room in here.


This message was edited May 23, 2006 4:37 PM

I for one would love to see photos of plants native to the UK that you post. I wish there was more activity over there myself. I lvoe photos. I'd also like to read more about the struggles faced by gardeners on the other side of the pond who are forced to deal with the issues of nurturing plants indigenous to where they garden. I know Sarracenia purpurea that was introduced over your way has become a major invader of natural areas and there are many others. The challenges native gardeners face on this continent are not exclusive to us.

Baa, I think we human beings like to compartamentalize things if that makes any sense. I guess it's why we are now up to 180 different forums. To concentrate interest and increase membership for our community. The other thing is that we can watch whole forums. I know I just added Gardening For WildLife.

I don't recall saying anything bad about international members...only that most of the people on most of the forums I look at on DG are from NA. If someone from Europe wants to grow something native to Europe in Europe....why would anyone object? It's a native plant in Europe. Hooray to them for wanting to grow native stuff! Purple Loostrife looks really beautiul, and it would look even more beautiful to me if it had stayed in Asia. But no, it's here, and causing problems.

Answer to Terry's rhetorical question: Why, as a matter of fact there is someone who is, as a result of his bad gardening choices, and the help of hungry starlings, "putting" seeds from his large, well tended, bleeping buckthorn tree all over my yard every fall. The germination rate of buckthorn seems to vary from from a low of 100% all the way up to 350%. But he's not from another continent, he's my next door neighbor.

Equil knows what I'm talking about.

He gets a "pretty" tree to tend and fertilise.....I get to pull up thousands and thousands of teeny seedlings every year. YAY! Most exotics are well behaved, and wonderful additions to the garden, but, sometimes, what people plant in their yards can have ramifications for everyone around them. I don't want anything I plant in my yard to become a burden to my neighbors, or the neighboring environment. I live in an area with lots of wetlands, ponds, lakes, and state parks. I do research on every single thing I plant in my yard. I'm certainly not saying everybody has to do it that way. I like reading about plants, so it's a pleasant chore.

Ideally, I'd have as much a right to not have buckthorn as my neighbor has a right to have it. Unfortunately, because of the highly invasive nature of this exotic plant, I don't.

If this is a forum for indigenous plants...please tell me how that makes it different from any other forum? After all...every plant is indigenous to somewhere. So that makes every plant mentioned in every forum indigenous.

Well not every plant is indigenous to somewhere, most species cultivars and hybrid/hybrid cultivars are of garden origin not wild. This forum has always been used to discuss wild, native species that we come across growing in their habitats and gardening with these plants for those of us who, like yourself, enjoy wildflower gardening.

The other forums such as Hostas, Lilies etc include the whole genus, species, cultivars and hybrids.



This message was edited May 24, 2006 10:31 AM