So if pill bugs eat decaying matter and are not eating my plants, then WHAT are these doing?!?! This is a radish that I planted to attract cucumber beetles (so I could kill them) and today I found this! I felt no sympathy for them this time and sprayed them with insecticidal soap. (no idea if that works on them tho) Then tonight I sprinkled DE around my Dianthus. They started dying then I noticed all the pill bugs under them, and now I've seen munched on leaves. ggggrrrr!!!
...and how about this one?
Looking for something dead to eat? But they might be trying to stay cool as well. The ones that used to deadhead my flowers for me did have to crawl up a ways to get to the dead flowers. I don't know if insecticidal soap will work, but it seems as if you are getting them dead with the addition of DE, so good luck.
As for the munched leaves - I'd be surprised if these were able to munch healthy plants, and your radishes in the top picture do look rather pretty. If they were munching like a leaf beetle, with those numbers your poor radishes would be chomped full of holes, so at least they aren't leaf beetles!
Maybe it's time to give them a damp board to sit under. If they appear to be bothering your plants still after that, then you can always stomp them under the board.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the board. I'll do that this morning. I really like the DE more than stomping on them tho! LOL Maybe I'll just scrape them in the compost bags.
Those radishes did have some little holes in the leaves. I guess I need to do some more inspecting today. I'm just trying to stay on top of these critters since we will probably have an over abundance of everything since we didn't have a winter. ugh....
Here we are with grasshoppers already showing up. too mild a winter, they've hatched already. NoLo - must get some. this is gonna be a bad summer for bugs here too.
ps - I've always thought pill bugs did more damage than they were credited with.
This message was edited Apr 19, 2006 7:59 AM
Yes, I started seeing tiny little hoppers here too! I used NoLo one year but can't remember if it did anything. I do remember having to pay for this giant tub of it and only got to use a little and had to throw the rest out because it says it expires.
Nolo is good for the second and more generations... stops them from procreating.
Those roly polys do a number on plants that grow low to the ground. They live under cover of the leaves, and, although we're always told they eat dying organic matter, they tend to help it die first! If your other methods are working - fine. I sprinkle Sevin dust under the leaves, so no bees or beneficial insects can get into it. It definitly kills roly polys. And then there's the SlugGo or EscarGo for the snails. Those are both snail baits and non-toxic to anything else. They are an iron compound and break down to fertilize the plant. Gives the snails terminal constipation. :-D
I'm actually very reluctant to use Sevin - I haven't as of yet. I suggest checking the label to see if it kills rolly pollies too before using it. If they are anything like millipedes, many things that will kill insects, don't do much for the millipedes.
I would suggest a granular bait myself if you are going to go the pesticide route. That would probably also get critters such as crickets and other omnivores, but at least it wouldn't kill as many predatory critters. (Granular bait will be different from granular insecticide - which, like Sevin, will kill everything. If the label wants you to "water it in" that's probably granular insecticide rather than bait.)
Also as far as I know, lots of beneficial critters inhabit leaf litter. Everything from spiders to predacious beetles (including fireflies, carabidae, and tiger beetles). Some caterpillars also hide there during the day, but they can be both good and bad at the same time (or just bad if they are cutworms - grrr). Sevin might also get some of your earthworms too, but then again so might the granular bait. Poor earthworms are often an accidental casualty - even sometimes with herbicides.
I'm happy to say that despite the warm weather, I haven't had to use anything yet this year - yay. I had a slight whitefly scare, but fortunately the rain and some helpful spiders seem to have kept those under control so far (I've got the Bayer Advanced Tree and Shrub formula - imidicloprid, NOT the disulfuton - in reserve, just in case). Or if worse comes to worse, I'll yank those gardenias out - the veggies always come first at my house. The flowers better help themselves or they'll be sacrificed.
And it'll still take a lot of convincing for me to believe that rolly pollies are up to no good. I just haven't seen it myself.
This message was edited May 2, 2006 3:34 PM
I'm so glad that you aren't using the disulfuton! That should be removed from the market - a long time ago. That has a very low LD50 - indicating that is highly toxic. And it is toxic to mammals - like dogs and cats. The imidicloprid is much gentler - at least on mammals, but it too is toxic to the same things that Sevin is toxic to. Imidicloprid, however, is systemic. And lasts longer. I, too, won't grow problem plants. You won't find a camellia or gardenia in my yard. Scale - yuck!! Or azaleas - lace bugs. Not willing to fight that battle.
I am a big fan of beneficials - matter of fact, I give programs on them. I will never broadcast poisons. I won't even use them unless it is a matter of life or death - for the plant I want to save. I use them only in a controlled method (as in under the leaves where not much else will encounter it) and I use the least toxic chemical that will work. Trust me, Sevin works on roly polys. If I want to have plants that hug the ground, or form rosettes overwinter (and many natives do that), I just may have to use Sevin. Even then, I don't do it until the problem exists.
Anything you use will kill other insects. (Even Bt doesn't distinguish between moth and butterfly caterpillars.) The key is being very specific as to where you use it, and using it only when necessary - and then only on the target plant. If you have a choice, use the least toxic chemical also. But first check to see if the beneficials are in place, and if they are, let them handle it. Can't think of a single beneficial that goes after roly polys.
I'm lucky here and the aphids and worms prefer a native plant we have called mockorange and they feed there first and I squish them or spray them. Then I keep a watchful eye on the non-natives.
ceejaytown - I definitely agree with you on the disulfuton. I try to discourage our homeowners, both directly and via the extension agents, to avoid that stuff whenever possible.
That's cool that you give programs on beneficials. I sort of do as well. It's my most popular talk that I give the master gardeners in my state, and I'm proud to say that almost all my slides are pictures that I took myself of beneficials in my gardens (for the record, photographing lady bugs is a pain in the butt - they are hard to get in focus and they are too shiny). My favorites are the predatory bugs - especially the stink bugs - though I haven't gotten a picture of a live wheel bug yet (I have a picture of a posed dead one that passes pretty good for a live one, but I know it's dead, so it nags at me - heh). For some reason I can't seem to get that species in my garden. I also like the predatory wasps and the spiders (I have a soft spot for spiders). Do you have a favorite or specialty beneficial that you cover?
And yeah about the gardenias - I wish I'd known they might be trouble before I planted them, then I wouldn't have done it - heh. With me, it's the roses - I won't plant them at all, except for one wild rose my hubby brought me from the woods. In addition to insect pests, roses here also get numerous diseases. The clay soil and humidity aren't too good for them.
And yeah, I don't know of any beneficials that go after rolly pollies either, though in a closed container, I had a predatory stink bug eat a sow bug once - I think they eat almost anything! I was collecting them as live examples for a talk (the rolly pollies and sow bugs were for an occasional invader/perimeter pest talk), and before I could get everyone into the house and separated, the predatory stink bug was already trying to eat everyone else - hee. I don't know if scorpions would eat rollies or not. Since they are nocturnal and can sting their prey, I guess it could be possible. They are fairly common here, but I realize even more so where you are.
NB, this is one of my favorite pics of my scary bugs.
Well, there you go, Night Bloom - a great photo of the wheel bug!! And it's alive!
After seeing Blond's bug .. I have to show you mine .. when I first saw it, I thought my wild days of the 60's were catching up to me .. a piece of trash started walking up a pot .. it turned out to be larval neuropteran- a lacewing in common parlance, either a green (most likely) or brown lacewing. they are voracious predators with sickle-like mandibles designed to drain body juice into their mouth. they then unceremoniously drape the empty skin and other debris over their body as a camouflage.
It's teeny tiny thank goodness cause it looks like that Alien thing!
X
That would be the larva of the brown lacewing. I have seen them wobbling along the leaves of plants, wearing the debris of scales - all white and fluffy looking. Looked at one under my stereo/microscope upside down, and could see the under body of the larva, with legs waving.They are called trash carriers. The larva of the green lacewing feeds on aphids and other softbodied very small insects too, but it doesn't stick the leftovers to its back for camouflage. They are called aphid lions.
Here's my photo of the trash carrier upside down. You can see its mandibles at the top of the blob....
DE? = diatomaceous earth ?
grannymarsh [ JUST TOLD ME ABOUT THIS FORUM . ]
I don't know the abbreviations yet . Are the posted somewhere ?
Those lace wing photos are intriguing [sp] - I believe I've seen one without realizing what I was looking at. What a great place DGs is, I learn so much on here.
Paige, did you ever see any more damage? I think the roly-poly's are doing some major damage to some of my plants, mostly the roots. I have a holding area at the back of my yard with about 75 plants in nursery pots, mostly gallon size and mostly daylily's. Most have been waiting there, until I can build a large perennial bed, where at the moment nice thick bermuda is growing. We moved in February to a house with no garden beds and lots of grass in the sun.
In many of the pots, soil keeps dissapearing from the pots, from the bottom down. I pick up any of the pots that are showing stress and see multiple roly poly's in the drainage holes or on top. Yesterday, I pulled my poor constantly drooping small Beautyberry out of it's gallon pot and I swear there were 30 roly poly's just on the outside of the soil. I squished them and dug into the rootball to squish more. I went ahead and planted it since it was going in the natural area in the back, not the perennial bed. dragging the hose 150 feet to water it was better than waiting until fall and losing it due to roly poly stress.
I did spread DE around the ground and top of plants last week and sprayed some orange oil. I was not sure it would work and have not seen a decline. I think since the DE worked for you, I am going to have to pick up every plant and remove it from it's pot to sprinkle DE inside and out. It would be much easier if I could get them in the ground, but gotta have the money to rent the sod remover, buy a load of soil, etc. Moving is expensive!
As much as I trust NB's expertise, I know that my roly-polies stepped out of their natural boundaries and started killing my plants. I have had problems with several different ones, and they weren't just eating dead leaves.
I tried the DE but it just wasn't working so I ended up putting out a little bit of stuff from Green Light. I don't know off hand what it was but it was for pill bugs and a few other insects. I know after using that my dianthus started to recover.
Some of my daisies started dying and when I got down in them and pulled out the dying piece I found tons more of the pill bugs. I started with more DE and I have not seen them around the plant since. The only thing about the DE tho is that it just deters them until it's washed away and this other stuff kills them. I try to be as organic/green as possible, but geez, I can't just let my things die.
Thanks! The whole re-applying after wet thing is something I had worried about being a problem. I have to water all of these pots every other day so it really would not work. One thing I am thinking I will do is raise them a couple feet off of the ground somehow. If I can get rid of the existing pill bugs and get the pots away from direct soil, they might be safer. I will look for the stuff by greenlight as to be ready in case I need it.
Thanks again,
Staci
Geeze, ya learn something new every day!! I did not know you were supposed to be killing roly polly bugs. Will my diazanon work on them?
Regards;
blueltyes
Well I'm at a loss as to what to say. I'd always been taught that rolly pollies don't do much harm, though it sounds like you have an awful lot of them - we have drought here, so very few rollies.
I don't know what Green Light is, but it doesn't sound too bad. I'm not a big fan of diazanon though. I still think squishing them would be a viable option - get a big board and squish, squish, squish.
Rollies do love pots on the ground though - holes to hide in, water, shade - the prefect habitat for them. Since you put out the welcome mat, it looks like your "guests" don't want to leave and have overstayed their welcome.
I have recently learned that there is a spider species that likes to eat sow bugs as a primary food source (wish I could remember which spider), but I don't think that sow bugs are as tough bodied as the pill bugs (rollies).
I hope that your plants recover and do better soon.
Thanks Night_Bloom. I would never go around killing them indescriminately, because I know they do mostly good. I did some reading and found that they only do damage if there is an over abundance of them. Too many bugs and not enough food (decaying matter) to go around. Then they start going for they living plant matter. My backyard was completely cleared of leaves and kept very "clean" by the previous owners. What I need is a compost pile for them! The plants are in the spot the pile will go eventually...
sweezel, I know what the books say, and I know the truth. I have compost piles, and they prefer my plants. They have killed many of my calla lilies, and have severely damaged many of my low growing plants, and any plant that forms a rosette (leaves growing low to the ground).
Blue - I wouldn't use diazinon on anything, not even when it was legal. It kills everything, including any birds that come in contact with it, either on the spot or in the water that runs off. You don't see them die; they go off and get sick and die.
But I am not adverse to using Sevin dust, applied under the leaves, at the base of the plant, on the ground. This kills only those beasties that are in that area, and that is pill bugs! And it has a short residual life.. In other words, it doesn't persist in the environment - not as short a life as pyrethrins, but I haven't tried that and can't vouch for it. And I like the fact that I don't have to spray the entire plant, and impact whatever beneficials might be on it.
And before anyone jumps on me for using a pesticide, go back up the thread and read my reasons for this. I try to be as gentle on nature as anyone out there, but there are times when nature scoffs.....And remember, DE is not selective either - it just doesn't seem to work as well.
CJ
CEE,
Ok wont jump on you, maybe along side, however, and support your use of sevin if that is what YOU CHOOSE to do. ;)
Best;
bluelytes
We have had an over-abundance of them here. I thought it was because of our drought but maybe not. My neighbor moved right about this time they asked me to go over to their vacant house and sweep up the rolly polly's (how is this spelled?!) When I got there, there were just piles of dead ones in their kitchen. It was gross.
The Green Light product is But and Snail Bait. It has "Carbaryl and Metaldehyde" in it. I hope it's not too horrible but I did only use a little bit and only around the base of those plants in trouble. I won't use anything stronger or with a name that I associate with toxic. NB, please post if this product is bad! (if you know)
As much as the pill bugs have bothered me, I don't think I want a bunch of spiders either!
Konkrete - I'm not NB, but I know. Carbaryl is Sevin. I use it - NB won't. But Metaldehyde is dangerous to dogs. So I don't use it. I use the iron phosphate bait for slugs/snails instead. See http://www.aspca.org/site/DocServer/toxbrief_0303.pdf?docID=621&AddInterest=1101
Sevin?! No way! That's a name that I associate with "toxic" and normally won't use. No wonder it killed them. I don't have dogs but that's good to know. I just barely used any but might keep trying the DE instead. Thanks!
Pyrethrin is toxic also. But "organic" gardeners use it. Salt is toxic. But I'll bet you use it...
Maybe I should say "toxic" and SCARY to me. lol I really don't know anything about Sevin or many other things because I've only used a few different things in the 4-5 years that I've been gardening.
I do use insecticidal soap, Neem, and have used some pyrethrin products. Salt is toxic to slugs, but I don't have a problem with those.
Maybe I should check into those rolly polly eating spiders now.
Konkreteblond - there may be another option. There are some pyrethroid (and other) granular baits out there. These won't be specific to the rollies and might get some kinds of beetles, crickets, and other "chewing" omnivores, but it shouldn't harm the predators (except maybe those who eat dead rollies or insects). Don't get these confused with granular insecticides which are basically granules with pesticide - the granules help to get the material down into mulch and leaf litter. These are more general killers though than the baits - which will just kill the guys who nibble on them. If your rollies are hungry, they should eat the bait.
I'm beginning to think some of you guys have mutant, killer rolly pollies - hee. The drought here has pretty much knocked my population for a loop, and those that are around seem to like my compost pile just fine and prefer to stay there (or under the bricks around my garden). Whenever I push back my pine straw mulch to plant a new flower, mostly what I find is worms and the occasional centipede or millipede.
And ceejaytown is correct. I won't use Sevin. I am not as convinced of its short residual properties as ceejay is. I have heard that it will kill bees and other critters that visit the treated areas of the plants. I use pyrethins for short residual - but it's not to be used anywhere near fish or aquatic circumstances - it is very toxic to the fish and aquatic critters.
I will admit, however, that I generally only spray in my vegetable garden when I spray at all - and where the brocolli is about to get a big dose of Bt as soon as I get a spray bottle - sorry wasps, you're too slow this year (though I should be greatful I even have any broccoli left, considering how unseasonably hot it is here this year).
I have a pretty "fend for yourself" attitude about my flower gardens. I'm just as likely to take a picture of a bug eating one of my plants as I am to knock it off or do something about it. Fortunately for me, I have very few bug enemies and few of those are in my flowers. The only flowers that I seem to have problems with are the black eyed susans and they are for the bugs anyway. If I sprayed them, I'd be defeating the purpose. Plus, I love those cool Geometridae caterpillars that stick flower petals on themselves as camoflauge. So I pretty much tolerate my Rudbekia getting chomped.
A picture of a Geometridae caterpillar with "flower boa"
Well, there are definitely too many of them here so you are lucky NB. We are in a major drought, here but this area gets quite a bit of run-off from my every other day watering so the rolly-polly's are in heaven.
I checked on the Beautyberry yesterday - the one I went ahead and planted. There were about 40 Rolly-polly's squirming at the top of the soil. I know I had squished at least 20 Rolly-polly's before planting. I guess they were deep in the root ball and did not want to be buried. I put down a whole lot of mulch around the beautyberry after planting it so they can munch on that if they want, but I did squish as many as I could in the short time I was down at the planting spot.
I did not get to work on my plants yesterday. Something came up, but today is the day. I am going to try dusting the whole plants, rootball and all, with DE and then raising them off the ground first. Then if by next week, I am not seeing less of them, I will try a Pyrethrum, before the Sevin.
Thanks!
When I said salt is toxic, I meant to you, not to slugs. (Yes, it is toxic to slugs also). It is all in the amount used. You would never take in a lethal dose. That would be .45 pounds to kill a 150 pound person.
NB is absolutely correct. Sevin dust is highly toxic to bees. That is why I only use it at the base of the plant and never on the plant - where bees might go while foraging for nectar and pollen. But they don't go to the base of the plant. However, pyrethrin is also highly toxic to bees (and other beneficial insects) - and that is why I won't spray a plant with it. But because of its low residual effect (doesn't persist in the environment), that is the poison of choice if something has to be used.
DE also kills bees and beneficial insects. It is not selective as to which body it will slice open. And you do need to be cautious with your use of DE. It can cause lung problems. So wear a mask when applying.
Soap kills beneficials too.
If I knew of a bait that would be eaten by pillbugs and not cause damage to any other insect or critter, I would gladly use it instead of Sevin. Nightbloom - do you know of any? In the meantime I am not causing any more injury to any critter than DE, pyrethrin, or soapy water. As a matter of fact, by placing Sevin (one of the lesser toxic chemicals) at the base of the plant and not spraying the plant with any chemical, I am reducing the fallout to other critters. And that is my purpose.
I just suggest that one reads these labels and learns about their toxicity and effects. I have, and I use only those that I am comfortable with, and only in a way that keeps me in that comfort zone. But all pesticides - even "organic" ones, have the capacity to kill something. After all, that is why we use them.
CJ
That's true, and why most of us that grow things for butterflies and hummers don't do much pest control. I understood about the salt, just thought of slugs. (I'm one of the rare people that doesn't even use salt)
I love that there is a whole other universe in my flowers and the creatures in it are just living their lives and oblivious to mine. I love my bees and even some of my spiders. Occassionally I'll knock a crab spider off of a coneflower because I know he's waiting for my butterflies but otherwise everyone pretty much fends for themselves.
Because I do try and grow milkweed for Monarchs I do have to spray the aphids sometimes. Last year I tried water and knocking them off etc. etc. and they ended up winning the battle. This year I did start spraying some early which has worked great at keeping their numbers down so my plants can grow. (I know I don't have cats or eggs and won't for a while so I knew it was safe to do, or I wouldn't have)
I have not heard an answer to our rolly polly plague but when it started I even heard people call in on our local organic radio show about them so I knew it wasn't just me. I tried the boards in the garden too and they wouldn't go under them! I've only sprinkled a little bit of that Green Light at the base of some plants, lifting their bottom leaves and branches off the ground, so no bees etc. would have been exposed to it. I am very careful with the DE too, either using a mask or making sure it's not windy and turning my head while I spoon a little out. I don't dust it on anything, just on the base.
I see a beautiful Black Swallowtail right outside my window on a coneflower now. I saw a strange spider on the Rudbeckia's and some bees with really yellow bodies that I wanted a pic of so it's time to grab my camera!
Oh, I love that pic of that little moth cat with the boa! I have seen one and didn't know what was going on. I didn't know they stuck the flower petals on themselves! too cool!
And just to prove I really don't use a bunch of chemicals, here's the thread I put my pics on so I wouldn't hijack this one. (even tho I started this one)
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/618224/
Well, I got a cool surprise when searching in a pot for rolly polly's. It's a major reason to stay away from the poisons. I started a new thread....
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/618417/
