Help identify a Japanese Maple cultivar?

Hoping all you experts can help me ID (or at least narrow down) the kind of hybrid JP I've had in a pot for about 5 years, before I finally put it in the ground. I'll attach some pix if I can figure out how... ;-)

Size now, at about 5 years, is roughly 60 inches high. It's been in a clay pot all that time, so not sure if it's a dwarf or just stunted by my poor care. Spring growth is light (almost lime) green with red on the deeply cut, 7-lobed leaf margins. Summer growth is largely green. Fall color is a riot of oranges and reds and purples. As you can see in one photo, the just-emerging growth is sort of bright reddish purple.

The most interesting thing is the bark; has all these rough patches that get coarser and broader as it matures. I originally bought it at a community plant sale from a backyard hybridizer, and diligently wrote down the cultivar name. Now I've lost it, of course, although I recall it was an Asian name (vs Joe's Acer or something along those lines...).

I've spent hours online trying to figure it out. It seems like a combination of Kamagata, Omurayama, with a little Arakana and Nishiki Gawa thrown in!

Since I do plan to put it in the ground, it would be nice to know what to expect in terms of growth habit once I do so, so I don't put it in the wrong place. The spot I've picked out gets sun most of the day, but the surrounding soil and bottom part of the trunk will be shaded part of the day by a courtyward wall.

Sorry for the long message; here are some photos (I hope). Thanks for any advice!

Here's a close up of growth

Here is one of the leaves

And here is a closeup of the fascinating bark at its gnarliest. Thanks again!

Here's Mountain Maples search engine for 'BARK". There are several here with interesting bark but I can't tell which. This might narrow your search to about three I think.
http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_Cookie=4.15.06_16,10,18_13/*ws4d-db-query.ws4d

What do you think?

Hmmm. I'm still thinking the Arakawa. The Ibo Nishiki is close, but it looks like the leaves only have 5 lobes; hard to tell in the photo. Finally, based on the description and some photos I found with google, could even be Nishiki Gawa. Your thoughts? Are we on the same page?

The other thought is, since I got this from "a guy" rather than a nursery, maybe it's a hybrid of a couple of these — could that be? Are they easily hybridized? (Based on the huge variety, I'd think so, but don't know much about the process.)

Either way, looks like I should be safe putting it in the spot I'd hoped to, as the height would be within range. The poor thang looks so pathetic in the pot overall, but it has wonderful elements and probably just needs some TLC. What do you feed these pups? I usually just mulch with organic compost and that's it...

Thanks for taking the time; really appreciated.

Japanese Maples are grafted instead of hybridized. Those not grafted are grown from seed and so are unreliable as to form. Was it a door to door salesman? LOL

Most of these trees are going to get very big in the landscape. Almost all of them will get to 20 feet or more here. You aren't talking about a small tree at all. I would give it plenty of room if you can. If you wonder how Mountain Maples sizes their trees you should look at the street tree example of Bloodgood there and then see the size they say the tree will get. That's no 20 foot tree if you ask me.
http://www.mountainmaples.com/WS4D_Cookie=4.15.06_17,26,03_15/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-query-Show***ELL-BHC-220220220220223228-1415***-Class***-***MM(directory)***.ws4d?MM/testproduct.html

None of these are very common trees. However almost all of them will get to 20 feet or more here. You may have to wait to see what the leaf looks like in the summer or even how the trunk matures.

Here's a photo of Arakawa leaves in summer. It's hard to compare them with the spring growth but perhaps you have a memory? Other wise we'll have to wait a couple of months.

http://japanese-maple.com/arakawa_grafted.html

Eeek! 25 feet for the Arakawa? Maybe I should continue it on its present poor diet to keep it small. LOL The leaves in the link you sent look much coarser and darker than on this little fellow. They are quite delicate looking throughout their season. Perhaps my door-to-door salesman grafted an Arakawa and a pygmy/dwarf of some sort.

I guess you don't really prune these as you do other trees? Maybe if it's in the ground I can talk our arborist into working on it during his annual visit.

How do they do with underplanting? I was planning on putting it in a garden, corner position in a courtyard-like area so it has room to grow horizontally on at least three sides. But if it grows too tall, it's going to hit the canopy of our sidewalk/street sycamore.

If you keep it in a pot it will stay smaller. They do fine with underplanting and that's not a problem. I don't know how far the canopy goes up but there are only a few maples that will stay short here. I have managed to keep some 12 -15 foot cultivars under 8 but not all will work. It depends on the nature of the beast. I have a Japanese Maple man come to my house but I have a lot of trees. Right now it's small so you only want to be maintaining a leader and cutting out overcrossing growth anyway. Unless someone else has another thought.

I feed mine pro-tek and DynaGro 7-9-5. It says to use it once a month but I only do it in the spring.

What does everyone else feed?

To tell you the truth, Suzette, I'm feeling a little over my head here. Let's hope someone else comes along with another idea.

Regan's has been very helpful to me regarding questions even though I haven't bought the tree there. You might take a photo of the trunk and a leaf to the nursery. But call first as the Japanese Maple person isn't always there.

This message was edited Apr 15, 2006 8:54 PM

I have NEVER fertilized any of my JMs EVER not even at first ...but I don't do containers all are planted out...and Illinois soil is richer than you know what... If you do containers I suppose you would have to reguardless of where you live...Most do it only once in early spring ...some use time release fertilizer for roses EVERYONE has there own ideas on what is best... If you really want to get bored go to the garden web and read the indepth posts on varias fertilzers ( organic compared to inorganic a little of this a little of that yatayatayata and potting mixes do it yourself mixes up the yin yang ...YAWN ;>) david

You guys are great; how can I go wrong with all this good advice? I think I'll take the chance and put it in the ground. If it doesn't work, it's just an opportunity to go tree shopping, right?

Doss, I may wander up to Regan's one of these days. Excellent idea about bringing along photos. All of your suggestions have been well received and much appreciated.

David, stop bragging about your soil. Not only do we left-coasters have to contend with clay, this year we are celebrating the 100th anniversary of "the big one" — the quake that rocked San Francisco — when all of the soil quivered and rocked and rolled. So, please, show some sensitivity. LOL

I've been trying to stick with organic compost in lieu of fertilizers for everything except my potted roses and citrus (trying to make up for all of the self-polluting I did in my misspent youth), but I'll do some reading up, as suggested. There is such a wealth of information on DG, but it can be overwhelming, and it's easy to get distracted! (That latter may have something to do with my misspent youth as well...)

Suzette..I feel your pain for your non Illinois soil but we are on I think the great madras fault here ...a little closer to MO. but we're on it ...and most are expecting some BIG rumbling in the coming years since there hasn't been a big one ( small tremors only ) since the 1800's.

I have a theory of why JM's are becoming so popular other than they are just so darn neat ...and that is the physical similarities of some cultivars with certain plants you "may" be treferring to from your misplaced youth ;>) David

Funny you should say that; when I was trying to photograph the leaf yesterday, my husband wandered by and said, "Hmm, that looks just like a pot leaf..." Isn't it nice that his memory hasn't failed him?

Having grown both ( the other in MY mispent youth for personal use BTW) I can tell you there is an uncanny similarity in leaf shape in many JM palmatum broad leaf varieties UNCANNY!!! I think the familiarity is a subconscious luer for many of us from that generation and a possibe cause of a similar mental JM addiction many of us have...but that's just a theory. I am so addicted to JM's my wife is about to kill me but she humors me instead lucky for me ;>) ... David

Interesting theory, Doctor. My husband supports my plant habits as long as he doesn't have to dig any holes.

The digging of holes is the fun part getting them straight and "facing" them so they look best is a two person job though and not easy without messing up the root system... and since I have destructive dogs fencing each one is also not much fun I have about 6 more to plant ...gtg ...will try to get at least 3 in this afternoon...David

Good luck on your planting. What kind of destructive dogs? Six more trees to plant? Oh my aching back...

Our soil is so saturated from all the rain, I bet we won't be digging any holes for a couple of weeks. I just redid our front yard, so right now it is a blank slate, but dotted liberally with 1-gallon nursery cans and some oddlots I'm replanting from my back garden. Come on, sun!

What 6 are you planting? Sounds like a small forest? I know that you can't just have one.

And wasn't it pouring today Suzette? I'm done with it. I've been digging in this mess and planting anyway. Have had some bareroot plants that have needed to get into the ground. It hasn't been too bad as most of the soil is very amended and I just keep adding more soil helpers.

I've left the two new trees I just bought at the nursery though until this downpour stops. I have to have someone dig two pretty big holes (DH isn't a hole digger either and I wish that I could but I can't) and I don't want to do that in this weather. Plus that I'm taking down an old sick olive in order to put one of the trees in. Have to get that done too. Always complications.

this year i am planting these I put about twenty differnt ones in last year and have about 8- 10older bloodgoods and generic types all about 8-*10 years old...have 5 left to plant in addition to a multitude of other non jm stuff and a garden if I ever get the time oh and my grafting green house that has had some success about 15-20 look to have made it ( so far) out of 60 thats about right for a first timer i've heard I am not a grafting savant thats for sure but have learned alot !!...we've missed most of the big rains but have had three tornados hit within 3 miles of here and do extensive damage ...weird spring huh??!! David

germains giration

abigail rose

baldsmith

rara flora

japanese sunrise

Scolopendrifolium

shiranami

coonara pygmy

emerald lace

red spiderweb

orido nishiki

nishiki gasane

seiryu

pendulum jullian

orange dream

additional red dragon

What a nice collection. I think that you'll love them one and all - how could you not! Your landscape will glow.

I couldn't find a couple. Raraflora I could only find as a grower, shiranami didn't google. Perhaps spelling?

And you only learn by failing sometimes. I can't even begin to tell you the number of lessons I've learned from plants that didn't survive. It sounds as if you're taking this all quite seriously. I'm glad that you're having such a good time doing it.

Hi David,

I have been reading about your grafting and wanted to congradulate you on your first years success. Not bad. Just for your information some of us so called professionals can sometimes have as much problems if not more than some of the beginners. Grafting of any plant has a lot of variables from the conditions of the weather up to and including the conditions that you keep the greenhouse in. We have all tried to improve the way in which we do our grafting and always drop back to the old tried and true method of the old timers. That is to say our grandfathers.

If you have any questions that I can help with, then by all means look me up and give me a call or an email and I will try to help where ever I can.

Dave.

Doss ;>) you did like me and went to google when you could have just plant filed it at daves YUK YUK!!! ( shiraname )http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/111742/index.html

Thanks dave I WILL be in contact with you...Grafting has been "experience" I love it...but it is frustrating but what things in life you love arn't.. I started trying to do it inside with grow lights that was a total disaster...but ended up buying a portable green house for about 300$ that works great for what I am doing now ( screwing around).I have used two differnt grafting methods with several variations of those methods trying and to get it right. Illinois weather and JM grafting "season" are NOT a marriage made in heaven and create unique problems ...which became extreemly evident when the tornado knocked out my power and my portable ELECTRIC heater for three days with 27 degree nights ( think propane).
Doss and everyone else I will post a list of all my other trees that ALL made it through last winter zone 5b (towards the top of that zone BTW) but be aware it was a mild winter with only about 4-5 days of single digit below zero weather and a few highs in the lower teens days .. but during that period there was no snow cover protecting my trees and I had no winter dieback except on an old dissectum but it may have been caused by other conditions.
This list is not a "bragging" one and that is one reason i have not posted this stuff before I didn't want to seem like I was bragging which I AM NOT./..but those that NOW know me hopefully will not see it that way ...it should be helpful for those in zone 5 to know what will survive cause one of my pet peeves is zone frustration in if you go to six growers or sites like Daves you may find many zone maximums ...there seems to be no clearing house for this and some growers may just be CYA to keep from having to replace stuff ( saying it will only grow in a warmer zone). I hope to do this every year and maybe over the next five ( unless global warming screws me up ) BY then hopefully we will know what ( of my stuff) will take zone 5 b weather. I encourage others to post under that thread their zoneexperiences . David

What a good idea David. I'm so glad that you are sharing this with people. Everyone wants to push zones - including me. I buy zone 8 plants here hoping that they will do well. Some do and some do not.

Japanese Maples are an investment and so many people in cold places want them.

It would be great if you would also put a note in the plantfiles of trees that didn't make it or trees that seem to do particularly well in your zone. Then it would be there permanently. I try to do the same for plants that didn't make it here after several tries.