Possible green light on a greenhouse

My husband told me to start pricing out greenhouses. We're going to get a few prices on excavating a site as well as pouring concrete footers and a pad complete with a center drain. The other deal will be running electricity and water to the greenhouse. This is the greenhouse I found that I liked-
http://www.farmtek.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?jspStoreDir=ConsumerDirect&mpe_id=11554&catalogId=10001&catalogId=10001&evtype=CpgnClick&intv_id=16501&division=FarmTek&langId=-1&storeId=10001&storeId=10001&partNumber=pgs104611&ddkey=ClickInfo
I hope we can afford it after all the peripheral costs are tallied.

Most of the plants I will be growing in it are Sarracenia and they will rest in water trays 24/7. There are so many optional greenhouse accessories that it is beginning to blow my mind. This is a very small greenhouse and he originally told me that if I could keep the costs to around 7k, that I could go ahead and order it. So far; the excavation, grading, and pouring of the concrete are coming in at around 4.5k which blows that 7k out of the water but he told me to still go ahead and gather all prices. I suspect adding another electrical panel plus trenching to the site is going to come in at around 3k. I never got as far as adding water. I looked at a few heaters and have no idea which route to go for zone 5. The heaters are all over the board price wise but it would be no big deal to run a line of gas to a greenhouse. I think he's ok with the base figure at around 12k right now but I'm afraid the accessories might do me in. Exactly what accessories would I need. Can we split them out based on what I can't live without as opposed to what could be added in the years to come? I can see where I would want a shelf around the perimeter and I can also see where I would want a means by which to hang potted plants down the center and a need for a potting table and shelving but I'm getting hung up on all the louvered window panels and vents and automatic window openers and exhausts and and and.... who knows what else I need.

By the way, it appears it would be best to site a greenhouse se by nw. If I can provide my exact latitude and longitude (my cell phone is also a GPS unit but I have no idea how to use it), would someone be in a position to help me with the orientation?

Equil, congratulations! You'll have a nice GH there. Hope to have you dropping in here often. ;-)

List of things to consider: heaters, misters, shade cloth, exhaust fan(s), HAF fans, thermostats or a climate controller. You'll need all of these within the first year, some right away. Shelving won't cost that much.

Are you handy? I did all of the electrical work myself once the panel was put in, and it saved a lot of money. Put in plenty of outlets.

Sarracenia, don't they need a dormant or chill period? If so, you can let your temps run lower than the 60*F I have to try to keep all winter in my GH. We can help you with sizing your heater BTUs if need be, there are simple formulas for that. I use propane.

Lots of things to consider. It sounds like you are on the right track in pricing the house. SB

Stressbaby-you seem to know about electricity. Why can't she just dig a 36" trench to the greenhouse and pull her power off the house panel? Set up a small panel in the grhouse for her fan, heater, outlets and lights?
If it is not a permanent structure (and will that cement floor may make it one?) she may not have to have a licensed electrician do the job. Its not that hard or difficult. I think she can also pull the water off the house and put her PVC pipes in the same ditch as for the romex. Thats real easy. I would think about two PVC pipes for hot and cold water. Even if she is using RO water, you still need regular water.

Yes, TL, we're saying the same thing, basically. She could place a subpanel if she comes straight off of the house. She could place a whole new panel if she comes straight from the meter. Getting either panel in the GH is, in most cases, a job for the electrician. But once the panel is in, the conduit, outlets, GFCIs, lights, transformers is all DIY if you're handy.

I should mention that determining the heating method needs to be done now, prior to planning the electrical layout, because if heating with electric, your draw may be a lot higher and you'll need more amp capacity. If Equil comes back with her GH temp requirements and zone temps, we can give her more info on BTU and power requirements.

I agree with you about the water and power in same trench if they come off of the house. Equil, remember even underground Romex needs to be in conduit.

This is fun, I love this stuff! SB

I know you do-lol this job was made for you because you are very knowledgeable -you do your research, I must say that. Thats why I respect what you say in here. May not always agree, but I listen.
I was lucky to have my brother when I put my greenhouses up-he knows a lot about everything that is involved, but he is not a licensed electrician-although he can wire a whole house and went to electrician school a long time ago. Its not that hard to install a cable off the house panel (although he had to cut into the sheetrock to do it-but he is the best sheetrock repairer i know-you can't even tell when he's done. That is probaably not going to be the case for Equil's house.) Yes Romex goes in a conduit-forgot to mention. I am sure there are licensed electricians that would do it on the weekend as a side job-that work for other people-i.e. don;t have their own business. They might not charge as much. It would not take that long if the ditch is done-less than a day.
Equil-I would call the electric company and find out what they charge to install a 2nd meter. If memory serves me-it is much cheaper to draw off the house.
I would always go propane instead of electric. In the long run, it is much more economical. She only needs a 50,000BTU at most. What size heater do you have SB? Don't you essentially have the same size grhouse?
I think there are pros and cons to the size-if you have a larger BTU output, then you use less gas because it doesn't heat as long. If you have a smaller, it stays on longer , but uses less to run. What do you think?
She needs 220 if she runs a fan, is it a bigger breaker she needs if she runs electric heat?
You must be a male lol are you??

Now that my head is spinning! Yes, if I get this greenhouse I probably will be stopping in here a lot begging and pleading for help because it is my understanding smaller greenhouses are actually trickier to operate and maintain.

Sarracenia do require a dormancy. If they don't get it, they grow their brains out and die. Same deal with Dionaea. The temps need to be maintained at or around 38F. Zone temps? Er uh sure, I know what I need- not!

Bad news, we already have two electrical services for this property and I believe we ran a separate line of 220 for a deep freeze to the basement and another one to the garage for a refrigerator out there that I use for cold stratifying seed back when we built this house a few years ago. I know next to nothing about electrical. I don't know if this is going to make sense or not but I think our existing electrical services are 400 and 200. My husband says we have a few blanks somewhere available on the 200 amp service but he doesn't believe we have enough to handle the needs of a greenhouse. in other words, I don't think we can pull power from the house unless we add another service. I already knew that so I'm ok with having to add that to the cost of this project. Romex is out to the best of my knowledge.

We have to use poured concrete, I have a homeowner's association that would tag my whole house if I even thought of going with gravel. We will also have to use licensed electricians or else a permit will not be issued. I stopped in and talked to the Village engineer yesterday and he told me to just have my husband stamp the design. Fortunately, my husband is a structural engineer so we save a few hundred dollars on submitting the drawing. Unfortunately, he is anything but handy (neither am I). I'm not saying my husband isn't intelligent but he doesn't deal with these types of structures and he said it's been too many years since he dealt with design at all for him to feel comfortable.

I don't know about running gas or not. He did mention that he would prefer to not have propane because of the tank. My husband mentioned something about a self contained waste-oil furnace that we could pick up for around 3K. He sent me a link to this-http://www.cleanburn.com/products.cfm
He said that was just a thought but that we might be able to run a gas line from one of the fireplaces in the home which would be better. I have no idea what he is talking about other than that running a line of gas out there is going to require a licensed plumber. He did mention there would exist other options that might be more viable for supplemental heat. he just wasn't up to speed on what they might be. I'm afraid my husband isn't going to be a big help... now if this was a bridge or a tunnel project, he'd do fine.

I don't think I got to the point of discussing water with my husband. I do use RO water for all of my carnivorous plants and orchids. I actually have two systems in the basement for my plants, one is RO and one is RO-DI for more "sensitive" plants. I couldn probably eliminate the DI phase from the one system in that it only reduces the ppm down to 7 or 9 from around the low 20's. I may have to lug water to the greenhouse.

Does this help clarify?

What do you two think of the Farmtek greenhouse kit and price?

If you go LP gas, I would call the company you buy from and see if they sell and service the unit heaters. Thats what I did with my propane heaters, and because I bought from them, they will come at any time to fix a heater in an emergency. They will also install the heater for you.

Equil, you're doing this right from the start...doing your research and planning. I know I said it before, but again, you're going to end up with a nice GH you'll be happy with, I can tell already.

Since I'm at work goofing off, but we'll need it later, I'm posting your GH surface area here; I get 755sq ft. We'll need that for heating discussions and calculations.

I think that GH will work well. Your 6mm twinwall PC has R-value around 1.5, way better than my tempered glass at 0.9 or something like that. The sidewalls are 5 feet. You might consider building it on a concrete block kneewall maybe 18" high, bringing your sidewalls to 6.5 feet. That might be the difference between banging your head and not, or between 2 sets of shelves and three. You would fill the holes in the block with an insulating material. If you do that, your square footage I listed above will go up a little and it will change your heating requirement calculations a little bit.

As for the price, it seems very reasonable off the top of my head. I don't know too much about Farmtek, tho I get the catalog all the time. I get most of my greenhouse stuff from Hummert, so you might do a little price comparison there.

OK back to work, more later. SB

We just had some knee and hip walls built around a patio that is about 16 x 20ish, a few accent areas by doors, and a few other areas so I am all too familiar with the cost of brick work. If I raise up the greenhouse by 2', That will add over $1500 in brick to match the house plust the cost of sills which might even be more than the cost of the brick and then cost of a brick layer which is roughly 4x the cost of the materials. I could probably do it but I'm only about 5' 4" ish (I know I shrunk a little recently so I might even be less than 5' 3") and do I really need the extra head room? The third shelf would be real nice. Although it would look great and match the rest of the house, it would add another $7500 to the project that I don't think I can eek out. You have to understand that I am in a north suburb of Chicago and nothing is cheap around here and particularly skilled labor such as a bricklayer.

I'm sure the next comments are going to be a shocking revelation but our Homeowners association does not allow exposed concrete block on the facade of anything.

Equil, can I add some more thoughts?

If you dig one trench, put everything in it...water, gas electric...or at least drop the wire, pipe, etc, even if you don't hook them up right away. You want to trench once, and only once.

Lugging water will get old, IMHO. I have RO in my GH. No DI. I would put a rainwater collection system on the GH and use that. Design it correctly from the beginning and it will be a lot easier. I'm working on retrofitting mine now, Tigerlily helped me with pics of her pump system (thanks). TL, I'm a he, BTW, good guess.

I'd go with nat gas or propane, whatever you have. You'll have to get the utility company or gas company to tell you whether you can run from the house and how much it is. I ran about 125' feet of line from the propane tank to the GH and it wasn't too much $...in fact, it might have been free given the amount of propane they were going to sell me! If you decide on that, then we can start a whole new discussion on vented versus unvented heaters...

Using the standard formula, assuming lowest low of -20 and necessary temp for your Sarracenia of 40F, 755sq ft of surface area, no kneewall, and 6mm twinwall, I get your BTU requirement at just a hair under 30K. TL, I have two 24K Empire vented heaters. I like the idea of having two heaters for more even distribution of heat and in case one breaks down. To TL's point about size, I don't think you want to oversize. Repeatedly kicking on and off frequently is not supposedly good for the heater...something about hysteresis, I think.

Other types of heat? I've heard of people using corn stoves, wood stoves, stuff like that. I don't know, it's not for me. I like to light my pilot and forget about it.

Consider electric heat...a 1500W electric heater gives 5200BTU. At this maximal output, it draws around 12.5 amps. Since you will need around 30K BTU on the coldest nights, you'd need the equivalent of 6 1500W heaters, which in total would draw 75 amps of power just for the heaters. I like plenty of outlets and plenty of capacity, so if it were me, I'd put 100amp service in this GH without electric heat...plus 75 more if heating electric. (Disclaimer, I'm not an electrician, get this all checked out by a professional. ;-)

Later. SB

PS: You were typing while I was typing...yes, that brick kneewall does seem cost prohibitive. I got my entire 20 x 23' 24" brick kneewall for around 4K, I think, I'll check the spreadsheet when I get home.

Nice multi-level benchmaster here-
http://www.hummert.com/catalog.asp?C=65&SC=23&P=15543

Oops, I was typing again while you were typing.

This could save well over $1,000-

Very good suggestion.

Yes, lugging water will get real old real fast but I'd rather get the greenhouse and worry about water later. Right now, all I want to do is get the essentials. You already mentioned a shade cloth and that's over $100 and all these other little necessities are going to add up.

We're probably leaning toward natural gas. I think the clean burn recycling furnace suggestion was merely something my husband thought might be an option. The link to it didn't work for some reason so here it is again-
http://www.cleanburn.com/products.cfm

[quote]Consider electric heat...a 1500W electric heater gives 5200BTU. At this maximal output, it draws around 12.5 amps. Since you will need around 30K BTU on the coldest nights, you'd need the equivalent of 6 1500W heaters, which in total would draw 75 amps of power just for the heaters. I like plenty of outlets and plenty of capacity, so if it were me, I'd put 100amp service in this GH without electric heat...plus 75 more if heating electric[quote] Sounds like you are an electrician. Gas and electric are going to be a toss up because of supply and demand. Evidently our gas rate goes up in the winter and down in the summer while our electric rate goes up in the summer and down in the winter. Classic of how they get you coming and going. My husband just read this and stated you have a very valid point and that electric should be considered given the greenhouse would need to be heated in the winter months.

I've got an idea, I think you two know my limitations. How about the two of you just fix me up starting with me handling the excavation, concrete, trenching of utilities, and the greenhouse from Farmtec and go from there. Figure a gas or electric heating unit and figure I can't afford to elevate the greenhouse on a brick knee wall. Please give me the bare bones to get me up and running. Then please give me a list of what I should expect to have to add the following year. If I end up stashing all of my carnivorous plants in the garage yet again this winter because there's no heat in the greenhouse, that's ok because I'll still have a greenhouse out there that I will get to outfit properly and use sooner or later. Sorry guys, this will be my first greenhouse and I do not know how to outfit it properly or affordably.

Here's one of the considerations-or potential situations that could arise, and thats Equil may be wanting to put plants that have heating needs on the opposite ends of temp at night. She wants the sarracenia at 38 minimum-and I think thats the dormancy stage? Is that right? That is really low for almost any other type of plant, and that almost guarantees that that will be the only crop in there. If she decides that she wants to grow other types of plants, then her heating needs will change and she should have that flexiablity. I think the majority of the time people don;t get a big enough heater, and I think she should go bigger than 30k. I would ask the people she's going to buy the heater from about the size and whether its that hard on the heater to be kicking on and off and whether it would.
She could wall off a part of the greenhouse to get a lower temp for her sarracenia with plastic. I do that in January when I am only germ seeds. I take down parts of the plastic in the am and put it back up sometime after the fan is finished for the day. Its a drag, but doable if the dormancy is fairly short. It actually ony takes 5 mins if that.
Tell us about unvented heaters SB-what are the pros? Cost? All my heaters are vented and all I know is the bigger the heater, the higher the stovepipe has to go.
Benches-how many plants do you forsee putting in there? I assume you will have one aisle going down the center-about 2.5' wide? Its all about the size of the flats that you use-or containers-make sure your benches can accomodate those. For instance-I use 1801 size flats (11"x21") so I made sure that my shelf was at least 22' deep and that I could fit 3 flats across where ever I had support posts that supported the shelf above. You might want one area that only has one shelf or none so that you can put taller plants in there.
Last, I would definitely put some kind of table at the end of the aisle away from the door. You will use that table all the time.
Get real Equil- lol you are not going to lug water from the house!

It wouldn't be that hard to figure out the costs of running an electric heater and LP heater and compare. Theres no way that you won't have this up and running before the winter. I don;t know why you need a shade cloth. By the time it gets really hot you will have your plants out of there.
Why so many outlets SB? What do you use yours for? I have two outlets in two of the greenhouses and have never needed more. Well I do have 4 outlets in the 100' because I have two fans that run all the time 1/3 in and 2/3rd's in the grhouse. I use one outlet for the radio and thats it. Good lighting is important for wrking at night.

"If she decides that she wants to grow other types of plants, then her heating needs will change and she should have that flexibility"

Tigerlily, you nailed it and I was short-sighted in my last post and in a hurry. I totally agree with you. My 30K calculation was for maintenance of 40*F temp, that's all. I hate to tell you this, Equil, but TL's right...you'll decide you want broccoli or tomatoes or oranges or bananas or something that requires more heat, and then 30K won't be enough. Better to plan ahead. If you went to 40K that could keep you at 60*F.

TL also has excellent advice about subdividing the space.

OK Equil, here you go...and this is minimum, in my view...

You cannot set up without a 2000cfm exhaust fan and some kind of air intake. Your GH is about 2015 cubic feet and the fan should be sized at least at that number. Here is a 16" Farmtek fan for $285: http://www.farmtek.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10001&productId=45062&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&pageId=ItemDetail&parent_category_rn=&top_category=&breadcrumb_trail=Cooling+%26+Exhaust+Fans%7CExhaust+Fans+%26+Shutters&breadcrumb_categoryIds=29762%7C29766&isDoc=

These are an example of the intake shutters: http://www.farmtek.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10001&productId=65547&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&parent_category_rn=29766&top_category=&breadcrumb_trail=Cooling+%26+Exhaust+Fans%7CExhaust+Fans+%26+Shutters&breadcrumb_categoryIds=29762%7C29766&isDoc=

You'll need HAF fans, at least 2. Cheaper fans can be found at Walmart, but they'll die on you, guaranteed. Example of a better fan: http://www.farmtek.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10001&productId=45024&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&pageId=ItemDetail&parent_category_rn=&top_category=&breadcrumb_trail=Cooling+%26+Exhaust+Fans%7CCirculation+Fans&breadcrumb_categoryIds=29762%7C29764&isDoc=

Personally, I think shade cloth is a must. Your 14'x24' could be had for perhaps $200. Thermostat, wire, conduit, outlets, misc stuff from HD: $500. Benches, let's say $100 from scratch.

GH: $4000
Slab and footers and grading: $4500 (sounds about right to me)
Electrical: $3000 (for ? another $500 you could drop the poly pipe for water and the copper for gas into the trench so they are ready for next year)
16" Exhaust fan: $285
2 18" Intake shutters: $110
2 HAF fans: $110
Benches: $100
Shade cloth: $200.
Misc: $500

Total is $13305 year one.

Year two, hook up water for $1000, hook up gas for, I don't know, maybe $500, and install a 40K BTU heater like this one: http://www.farmtek.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10001&productId=15724&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&pageId=ItemDetail&parent_category_rn=&top_category=&breadcrumb_trail=Heaters+%26+Accessories%7CModine+Vented+Heaters&breadcrumb_categoryIds=13567%7C13574&isDoc=

That will get you going year round for another $2000.

Somebody will come along and say you don't need this or you can get away with that or whatever. What you see above is just my opinion, these are just examples from Farmtek, since that is where you are looking to buy the GH.

Most resources will tell you to use vented heaters in a greenhouse. Unvented heaters may be more efficient since you don't lose any heat through a vent. Unvented heaters can produce gases harmful to plants like ethylene, particularly if you burn kerosene. For an unvented heater to run efficiently, there must be enough leaks in the GH to permit some air and oxygen to get to the heater. Now having given you the party line, I can tell you that I know of an orchid grower from GW in Alabama who has used an unvented heater for years without any trouble...maybe in Alabama...

SB

Equil, you need to ask Farmtek about snow load. The snow load should also include the weight of any baskets you intend to hang from the roof of the GH. SB

Although my current interests lie with Sarracenia, I don't know if that will be the case 10 years from now as more and more of these plants get planted out into bogs year round. Therefore it is not inconceivable that the day may come that I decide to grow something else. I would definitely be open to a bigger heater.

At first I didn't want a shade cloth for just the reasons mentioned by tigerlily but then I got to thinking about seedlings that might remain in the greenhouse after April 1st. All Sarracenia and Dionaea need to be moved out on or around April 1st but seedlings could stay put. I do a tremendous amount of temperate seed propagation (slightly over 1500 cells this year) and I could see where I might leave those trays in the greenhouse longer but... bear with me here... sometime before June 1st, even the seedling trays will go outside leaving an entire greenhouse empty. What a waste. I truly have no desire to grow anything other than native plants with a focus on carnivorous plants right now. I just decided it was high time to get back into doing a little volunteer work for the animal shelters again however not in a professional/administrative capacity this time but as a foster home like I was 30 year ago. It would be a great experience for my kids and Lord knows I know how to care for cats. Please do not think I am silly however a significant number of female cats with kittens exist at that time of year. Shelters are generally at capacity and to warehouse a Mom and kittens inside an actual shelter is the kiss of death for any kittens because of the HVAC systems. Their immune systems can not handle the air born pathogens present in the general population. Moms have to be placed outside in open air to protect their young and there is frequently no other choice. The kittens are generally adopted to the public straight from open air crates if no foster homes are available. It is in the best interests of the kittens to keep them outside. Hmmm, a greenhouse that would be empty over the summer??? If I took in two pregnant Moms, there would be no chance of any cats I would take in passing on any communicable diseases to my personal pets because mine would be in the house and the "visitors" would be in the greenhouse. Once the kittens are 10 weeks old, they all go back to the main shelter to be adopted. The other bonus is that the greenhouse is enclosed therefore it is a protected environment in that no hawks can grab the cats and no coyotes could get at them. I would like a shade cloth, and more roof vents, and exhaust fans, and fans to circulate the air inside as well as anything to keep the temps inside the greenhouse equal to those of the outer air. I think another door opposite the entrance doors would be a good idea too. Might as well convert this structure to multi purpose. Even if I don't take in a few pregnant cats, I still will need to move air in that greenhouse to help control temperatures as well as for air exchange so that I don't inadvertently promote disease and pest conditions.

Here's a thought I might like to address, I might have a need for vertical space if I choose to move some Nepenthes and Orchids out there. Just a thought.

Here's another thought- I might somewhere down the road have a need for a misting system. I don't currently propagate plants that require this but who knows what the future holds.

I thought about lighting so that I could play out there after dark. What about two fluorescent vapor-tight light fixtures from Home Depot? Those should be able to withstand the high humidity of a greenhouse, right?

I just found out that my concrete base is a good thing for my zone. It's thermal mass. I also remembered doing a little research and I think I will be adding stainless steel tubes filled with Glauber's salt on the north wall at some point in time.

I also learned that the Farmtek greenhouse dimensions exceed the golden ratio of more than 1.6 times the width. It would appear I need to site this GH to maximize the sun while ensuring a more even exposure over the course of the day. Therefore the longitudinal axis of this greenhouse should be about 5-10 degrees of true south. Does this sound right?

Oops, I was typing when you two posted again. Lemme digest what your wrote and do a little poking around so I can post again intelligently.

agree 100%

This pricing will be doable.

I will go with ALL of your suggestions. Makes life so much easier on me.

Do you think I need additional roof vents? I can't quite figure out how many come with the kit?

Big Thank you to SB and TL!
XOXOXO

I am relatively sure we will order this when my husband gets back on April 27th or maybe he comes back on the 26th. He already told me to just go buy whatever you two decided I needed but I'd prefer to wait and let him take a look at what you have typed.

SB thats a great point about snow load. Snow has taken down many a greenhouse. Another reason to have a bigger heater as well.
Equil-I really really really don't think you need another door. 24' is not that long a distance to walk and you will cut out a lot of space that you will wish you hadn't. You have no idea how fast you are going to fill this up. What are you going to have in the hanging baskets that will tolerate such low temps at night?
Shadecloth....I still don't see the need. Shadecloth is shade-shade is not a good growing environment for sun plants. If you are growing seedlings for sun environment then grow them in sun from the start. First of the sun is not as strong in the winter, 2nd I germ and grrow all my seedlings in the sunniest part of the grhouse-they need it. If I put a shadecloth up they would get leggy. When I germ pansy seeds in July, I put up 2 shadecloths to decrease the heat, and as the pansy seedlings get a few true leaves on them, I take the shade cloth off layer by layer-as soon as I can. I have seen the seedlings stretch because of the shadecloth. You want the full sun in the greenhouse. If you are growing a few plants that require some shade, then put them on a bottom shelf. I still haven't heard a good reason for putting up a shade cloth for growing full sun plants.
18" shutters seem kind of large for a 24' grhouse. The wind in there seems like it would be ungodly. Not to mention that in the cooler months when the air is cold outside, and you are working near the shutters-its really cold! I think I have 2 18" shutters on my greenhouses and they are way bigger. And I can get away from the cold air easier because I can move down the greenhouse farther, Equil won;t be able to.
Well I quess thats wrong-my shutters pull air into the aisles-Equil will have them going over the plants-another reason to have smaller shutters. And Equil, thinking about venting-that fan is going where you wanted your 2nd door and where I wanted to put the table.
As for cats in the greenhouse??? Only you would think of that lol. I have a feeling this is outside of SB's range of expertise lol, and mine as well-except that I don;t think you could vent it enough to make it comfortable for cats in the dead of summer. Maybe so. Thats the first good reason I have heard though to get a shade cloth. Did that pic of Buddy in the grhouse inspire you?
As for lighting-regular 100 watt bulbs work great for me-I have them every 10 or 15 ft down the greenhouse. I think, but not sure that my brother put in some kind of outside fixtures?? SB might now if thats possible. I don't think that I even cover them when I take the plastic off ( its been 7 yrs since I hsve done that).
I would not put in an unvented heater.
My greenhouses run east to west and I pick up the sun from the time it gets over the trees in the distance to almost sunset. The sun's path is different in the winter and you need to get out there and see where the sun is now.
I have the grhouse plastic and the sun bounces off and reflects everywhere. I assume this type of PC plastic does the same.
You can put a misting system in anytime, and thats a good reason for an outlet.
Back to venting-I just don't see a need for addtional fans for such a short greenhouse. The large fan is going to keep this grhouse plenty ventilated. Are you thinking she needs fans at night? I don;t have them in my 60' grhouses and I have never had a problem with fungus in there. As well, I can grow plants at the end of the grhouse that might require a lower temp at night, and I don;t want a fan pushing the hot air from the heater down there. I would wait, and see if there is a need for them and install if needed-they are easy to install. You would need an outlet up at the top for them-or run an extention cord.
Whats the $ 1000 for water hook up involve? You mean the pump and bladder tank for RO water -or just hooking up regular water from the house?
Ok I am thought out for now! This is very good that we are doing this back and forth-by the time we are done you will be covered for everything.
I bought all my fans and venting, thermostats etc from Grainger-they are a commercial outfit but I am going to go compare prices now. If the prices are considerably lower I have an account with them and could maybe have stuff dropshipped.

Out of curiosity-how are you supposed to put this fan and shutters in? The fan esp has to be supported-are you supposed to cut thru this PC sheeting? Do you put the wooden 2x4 frame inside the grhouse? Mine are built into the gables-which is made of wood. What happens when you have to cut the plastic( metal?) upright supports?

In defense of shade cloth: Most important, it is good for helping with cooling in the summer. It greatly reduces plant water loss. If all the plants are out by June 1, and no cats are in, then there may not be a compelling reason for using shade cloth. Personally, I find it uncomfortable to work in the GH without it. Finally, consider this: plants don't need 12-14 hours of direct sunlight to grow well (perhaps seedlings excepted). The definition of "full sun" is 6 hours of direct sunlight. I read a study, can't find it right now, but basically it showed that the plant in this study, citrus, could not use, for the purposes of photosynthesis, over half of the light that hit the leaves. The rest is just generating heat. You need that in the winter, so I don't use shade cloth in the winter. You can use other methods to keep plants from getting stretchy like minimizing DIF. Anyway, that is my rationale for shade cloth.

TL, I'm totally with you on the second door. A second door is wasted space. A second window, depending upon it's placement, might take the place of one intake shutter.

I operate my HAF 24/7. Here is a link: http://www.umass.edu/umext/floriculture/fact_sheets/greenhouse_management/jb_haf.htm Again, I agree with TL that the exhaust fan will move more than enough air, when it is on. HAF fans aren't needed when the exhaust fan is on, but I haven't figured out a system to shut off the HAF fans when the big fan kicks on, so I leave mine on all the time.

My GH runs N-S, but it should have run E-W. It just didn't fit the layout of the yard to have it run E-W.

TL, don't you think she'll be fine on lighting with 2 or 3 flourescent fixtures? I use only a single fixture over the potting area.

SB

As for framing in shutters and fans, wood could be used, but IMHO, aluminum would look better. Before you put on the PC, frame out that fan section with stock aluminum which you can get at Lowes or HD or ACE hardware. It is easy to cut, drill, whatever. Use regular bits and stainless sheet metal screws. Then cut the PC to fit around that frame. Maybe paint it white before installing the fan and PC to make it match. It will look nice!

Another option: order an extra piece of framing aluminum with the GH and just frame out the fan with it so it matches just right and it is already powder coated. SB

This fun huh Sb? I love puzzling out problems, finding solutions and details. Lots of details.
Shadecloth-nothing gets 12-14 hrs of sun, and the sun itgets at 6-7 pm isn't worth mentioning-or first sun at 8-9 am except in the winter early spring it warms the grhouse up faster and shuts off the heater sooner. In the summer, unless you have your thermostat set at 90, your fan is going to run all day (at least here-it is hotter, so I will defer to your experience SB) even with a shadecloth on-maybe 70% shade it won't but you might as well put your grhouse in the woods with that amt of shade. I know you are talking about 30-50% shadecloth? I would wait and see how the greenhouse does in the winter before getting it-unless the caats are moving in.
Lighting-it depends on how well Equil can see (farsightedness) and what she is doing in the grhouse at night. I find that if I am not working directly under the light, I can't see well enough for some things-others I can. When I am pinching back plants with manicure scissors and have to get it right between the new leaves at the node-I can't see it until daylight. Transplanting is fine-under the light. I wish I had more lighting. I don't know about florenscent lighting-is it brighter than 100 watt bulbs? Maybe I should switch.
DIF and wind will only do so much in terms of making a plant stocky. Sun is the key, imo.
In a large grhouse-you want those small fans running all the time-they help get the colder air down the grhouse (my shutters are in front of the aisles, the small fans are in the center-higher) and they help move the warmth. I think I am having trouble ajusting to the needs/or lack there of, of a small grhouse compared to a longer one. But what I said about the not needing the small fans for air circulation also apply to the heater being large enough to not need it during the night as well. If I don't need it for a 60', why in a 24' is my question. Fans also dry out the air-which I want, but you guys seem more interested in the humidity-so I don't know. At night, if we have had a wet cloudy day and the fans haven't been on, I turn the fan on for 10 mins to dry out the grhouse before the heater kicks on.

I still am curious about cutting those PC sheets and supporting the exhust fan.

thanks SB so the PC cuts ok? Doesn't splinter or crack? What do you use-a jigsaw?

Excellent link!
http://www.umass.edu/umext/floriculture/fact_sheets/greenhouse_management/jb_haf.htm

Yup, the photo of Buddy in the greenhouse is exactly what got me thinking. It's been 10 years since we switched over to fostering kids from fostering cats and the shelters still call out of desperation and I always feel horrible when I say no. The biggest problem was separating our personal cats from foster cats because we were using bedrooms for little people that had been previously used for shelter cats. I must admit I took in a few here and there and stashed them in bathrooms but those were desperate situations. Taking in 2-3 pregnant Moms in a greenhouse will be an excellent experience for the kids particularly if they get a chance to see kittens being born and an excellent experience for me because I don't have to keep any of them as they can all go back and be made available for adoption. At this stage in my life, I want nothing else that breathes around here. No more horses, no more cats, no more dogs, and no more kids. Well, maybe another cat here soon but I'm sure one will turn up that we keep.

I haven't a clue. I'll check into what SB said about ordering "an extra piece of framing aluminum with the GH and just frame out the fan with it so it matches just right and it is already powder coated."

I don't know what the snow load is but that is something my husband could figure out for me. Load bearing capacity he can do.

A form of Drosera binata, another carnivorous plant.

Guess I don't need another door at the other end! Is that where the heater will go too?

Works for me and considerably cheaper too which I like very much. And, I don't see well at all so I do need light.

True for me particularly with Sarracenia. Just as many plants go dormant at temps that are below 60F, plants will actually shut down to conserve energy at temps above 85F, Sarracenia included. I use 70% shade cloth in some areas already for just this reason. My reasoning for getting the shade cloth would be for cats though as well as for the future in the event I choose to grow something else in there other than temperate species of carnivorous plants.

True for more plants than just citrus. Here's something I wrote in another thread that I am cutting and pasting here, "Any shade cloth that blocks a percentage of light reaching plants has got to be actually blocking a percentage of all wavelengths to one extent or another to include the infrared wavelengths responsible for solar irradiation. I guess the theory behind the shade cloths is to reduce some light but not so much so that the ability of the plants to photosynthesize would be impaired."

Speaking of that thread, great source for shade cloth with grommets was provided. Unbeatable prices and good quality shade cloths-
http://www.mnsinc.cc/customtarps.htm

One thing, I am hyper allergic to pines and cedars. We had to remove a cedar closet from this house because I couldn’t breathe and if I touch these woods, I break out in hives and welts. I can't have anything that is constructed of pine or cedar. This is the reason I am not choosing a redwood greenhouse. That being said, have either of you any ideas of where I could locate a decent utilitarian potting table/workbench?

Back to fans for a moment- specifically which two fans from this link-
http://www.farmtek.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10052&storeId=10001&productId=45024&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&pageId=ItemDetail&parent_category_rn=&top_category=&breadcrumb_trail=Cooling%20&%20Exhaust%20Fans|Circulation%20Fans&breadcrumb_categoryIds=29762|29764&isDoc=
I called them and they indicated this greenhouse would need 2160 CFMs which was determined by the size and height of the greenhouse. He said the two 12” circulating fans would be fine.

And now since I have the whole day off, I need to go outside and clean up a pond. Weee, I am beginning to feel as if I may have a greenhouse someday! You have no idea how long I have wanted one of my own!

It doesn't matter to me about the shade cloth-but realize that direct sun-any amt of hrs-disappear with the shadecloth-now you will have filtered sun- and you said that I have to grow my sarracenia in full sun!! This is a very small point in the big picture-but yes absolutely get the shade cloth with grommets. One last pt-if you have quite a few days with clouds-doesn't that affect the growing with shadecloth on? I guess I look at it from a different point of view=I am on a schedule, you guys are not.

all my heaters are on the opposite end of the grhouse than the fan. My heaters are to the side of the door and the shutters are on either side of the door and the exhust fan is centered in the middle higher up at the opposite end.
SB, I saw that you were growing a lychee tree. How big is it and how old? That is a fairly exotic fruit tree to be growing! When I lived in Hawaii, I lived in a valley that had the 2nd largest lychee grove in it and I walked thru it everyday. It was a very old grove and had been abandoned a long time ago because the trees were to old to manage any more. You could see where they had girdled the trees to force it to produce fruit. It still did, somewhat and I always enjoyed the fruit-you just picked it up from the ground.
Since SB has no choice but to factor the cats into this equation......heres Buddy!!

What's a Lychee Tree?

Nice cat! You need more honey. You have openly admitted to having three greenhouses. Please contact your local animal shelter ;)

No way you big goofball!! I have regular grhouse plastic-I can show you the damage Kiwi did when she got left in there one time-shredded the plastic . I had to use almost a whole roll of greenhouse tape fixing that spot. Buddy is looking pretty rodoulent (sp) there huh?
Google a lychee tree-its a subtropical to trop. fruit tree from China originally I believe-could be wrong on that. I know the Chinese love them though! You can get them canned-although I don't think that is the way I would want to eat them-not after eating them fresh.

Buddy needs a friend. Poor lonely Buddy. Have you never heard of de-clawing pets? Works wonders when you have a cat that shreds things; as in itself, as in your legs, as in other cats, and er uh well... as in greenhouse plastic.

I talked to my husband and he said not to worry about the load bearing capacity of this greenhouse for a few reasons but he didn't elaborate. He was pretty busy and had to cut me off but not before he asked me if my two new cyber friends will be coming to Illinois to help put this up or if my two new cyber friends will be there with us "in spirit" when we put this thing up? He also pointed out to me that I would be looking at unassembled parts in boxes for a while because it's a bad time of year to be locating good excavators and such. I never thought of that but I'd be perfectly happy to look at boxes as long as I know what's in them.

Back to the pond! I'm pretty slimy but loving it! Last year was a bad year for string algae for some reason. This one little pond I have looks like the chia pet of ponds only nobody cut its hair.

Lychee is supposed to be one of the best tasting fruits in the world. My little tree is 2', in a ground bed for 4-5 months, flowering now, but I don't yet know if I'll have fruit. It is proving to be a challenge to grow. The emerging foliage is exceptionally sensitive to something...drought, sun, sprays, I haven't quite figured it out yet...it breaks bud and the little leaflets are only 1/4" long and they tend to get crispy. Hey, it wouldn't be any fun if every plant was as easy as a banana!

Equil, for HAF, the 2 12" fans are fine, IMO. And you got good advice on the cfm size for the exhaust fan, you need around 2000cfm. I don't think that the placement of the heaters relative to the exhaust fan is critical, since as a general rule, the heat won't be on at the same time as you are cooling with the exhaust fan. TL, do you agree? Generally, if you are positioned east-west, you'll want the exhaust fan on the east end and the shutters, window, door-screen on the west end so that the exhaust fan is not fighting against the prevailing winds. If N-S in orientation, then exhaust fan goes north, shutters south. You'll want these on the ends of the GH so that air is drawn down the length of the GH.

And don't rule out using the GH in summer, even if you are just interested in natives. Maybe in a year or two you'll have a nice Viburnum variety and you'll want cuttings to trade with VV and Guy!

SB

I was going to suggest a road trip. ;-)

Ah ha! Those are my buddies! I suppose you know Scott, Lucky, Kevin, Mike, and Rick too! John and Scott just took a road trip to my house and left me with goodies. Lucky and Kevin have given me lots of goodies over the years. And dear sweet Guy just took a road trip here and left me with more goodies. Yes, I do plan on rooting some cuttings for them. I experimented with some assorted hardwood cuttings and those are failing right now... duh! I do like to experiment even if there isn't a shot of me succeeding. I just ordered a clone machine and I should have it sometime next week. I ordered the RainForest 318. I'll start with softwood cuttings taken mid June and my rooting percentages should go through the ceiling. Always helps to take cuttings at the right time of year. SB and TL, you both need a clone machine so we can all play with softwood cuttings. After all, one good turn deserves another and since I'm entering the greenhouse arena you both should get clone machines!

This is something I hadn't factored in at all, "Generally, if you are positioned east-west, you'll want the exhaust fan on the east end and the shutters, window, door-screen on the west end so that the exhaust fan is not fighting against the prevailing winds." I wasn't thinking about prevailing winds. Now I don't know where to put the door. It would be kind of weird walking out the back door of my house and having to walk around to the back of they greenhouse to get in but I will probably flip the entrance to the other side now because of what you wrote.

By the way, my husband said he went to the site and downloaded the pdf file on how to put this thing together and his exact words were that it looked "interesting'. I think you and TL and all my buddies should come up for a road trip and instead of us having an Amish barn raising, we should have an Illinois Greenhouse raising!

I finished the pond and now it is back outside to re-pot 65 Viburnum! John would be so proud of me! It is the year of the Viburnum and Conifer for me. I really needed to get some Evergreens in the ground here for my birds. They need the shelter desperately. My property is all but devoid of Evergreens and that needs to change.

That is a beautiful greenhouse Equi! I can't wait to see it all in place and the smile on you face. :)

Guys I have the opposite setup of What you said. My door and shutters are in the east side and the exhust fan is on the west side. We don't live in a very windy area, so not sure if that matters. Winds tend to come from different directions depending on the season. Not sure if you do need to make the change.
SB are you saying that you have never had a lychee??? They are good, but I would hardly say that they are the best tasting fruit in the world. The flavor is fairly subtle. I would put a good papaya or mango over a lychee, and a sweetsop is also very good.

Equil, I know all those folks, though I've never met any of them. I'm at T&S forum a lot, but I don't post there much. I play plenty with softwood cuttings on my propagation bench... overwintered 20 abelias and several viburnums and hydrangeas in the cold frame this winter. Once you are up and running, we can jump over to the propagation forum!

I guess you can put the door anywhere you want if you are not using a screened door as an intake, or if, like TL, you don't have much wind. I'm just saying that the ventilation will be more efficient if you aren't fighting strong prevailing winds. We live up on a hill and my winds are fierce. This is a matter of do as I say, not as I do, since my fan is SOUTH and my shutters and door NORTH...don't ask...it's a long story...just learn from my mistake.

TL, I've never eaten a lychee. I got the tree as a gft. I do have a mango in the GH, no fruit yet. If my lychee tree doesn't make it, maybe I'll take your suggestion and plant the sweetsop!

See you later...SB

This message was edited Apr 14, 2006 5:27 PM

Gorgeous greenhouse! And you are catching it on sale too!! I want pictures when it's up!

Thank you Chele and thank you Jazzie! My greenhouse will be small and utilitarian... you should see some of them out there. Holy cow there are some beauties!

Good news and bad news.

My husband is going to order the greenhouse when he gets home. More good news, he said to go ahead and add the heating unit and that I was to try and locate a decent potting table so that I would get OUT of the kitchen. I've totally trashed our kitchen... again. He also told me to get the shade cloth or I would be miserable working out there. I do have blue eyes and often wear sunglasses so he has a point.

Bad news is that he told me to call the excavator and schedule him to come out here. So far we are on his schedule for early to mid November providing the ground doesn't freeze. Would photographs of the shipping cartons for my new greenhouse work for those who want to see photos?

My husband is going to call around and see if we can find another reputable excavator who might be available for a small job earlier than November. Where I live there are two seasons... winter and construction and there is no in between it seems.

I called Farmtek and I have a reference number now so I guess I'm official, too bad everything will be in boxes for months. One thing I did ask about was if I could purchase an extra piece of powder coated framing aluminum with the GH and I can't. Any other options?

TL, I am in a northern suburb of Chicago aka "The Windy City" and it most certainly lives up to its reputation is about all I can say. I am going to recontact Farmtek on Monday and ask if I can put the door smack dab in the middle of one of the 24' walls. This might be the best solution.

Tee he... I'm up and running in the propagation department. I like to germinate seed for sport... I am a plantaholic. I think I have around 1500 cells, 15 trays of trees and shrubs in 2 liter diet pepsi bottles of 15 per tray, 10 shelves of seeds germinating under fluorescents, two kiddie pools in the basement centered under metal halides, about 100 leaf pulls, orchids in flasks, more tissue cultures in jars, and who knows what is in the cold frame right now. This house is aglow! No need for good directions to get here... follow the light. I have wanted a clone machine for a while for softwood cuttings specifically. Looks as if someday I'll be getting into a propagation bench with automatic misters. Are we having fun yet or what!

No need for me to get run over by a mack truck to learn not to cross the road without looking. I'll put my shutters, door, and fan where ever y'all say to put them. I'm easy.

Send me a plane ticket and have the bobby waiting. I can wear plumber pants if you think it would lend me credibility. LOL

Oh my word! Would that be a riot or what! You are my idol and I still want to be like you when I grow up.

I know you can operate one of those but I am still thinking back to when they were trying to teach me how to use one of those combo things last fall where I got nervous and swung the bucket into the guy trying to "teach" me. Poor thing. I'm really glad he moved so fast or I would have clocked him. If the guy with the backhoe doesn't show up to finish my bog this spring like he said he would, I'm going back for more lessons and I AM going to have one of those backhoes delivered and I am going to figure out how to use it. Won't the man I tried to kill be impressed if he sees me coming in for a refresher course!

The bog didn't require a permit from the Village. That only required go ahead from the Army Corps and Watershed Management. Believe it or not, they can be quite challenging to deal with. Unfortunately the greenhouse will require a permit from the Village. All contractors must provide a certificate of insurance to the Village. There will be no cutting corners with this greenhouse. Now if that isn't the pits, I don't know what is.