Is Primula vulgaris invasive?

I keep hearing that primrose is invasive, but I think there might be a few different plants out there that are all called primrose. Is the Primula vulgaris invasive? Would northern zones have as much problems as southern zones?

I think what is being talked about as invasive is evening primrose, which isn't even a Primula, but Oenothera. Primula vulgaris is quite well behaved and will form a good clump, but won't take over the farm. Eventually, you'll be able to divide it and move it around or share it, but it is quite tame. Evening primrose, on the other hand, can be a bully.

Common name of Cowslip? If it is Cowslip you are referring to, it is indigenous to Europe. I've been having problems locating information about invasiveness on this plant because I think Primula vulgaris is obsolete or something is going on with that binomial. I can't find a reference for P. acaulis or P. malacoides in the USDA Plants Database. P. acaulis or P. malacoides are synonyms for the P. vulgaris according to the PlantFiles. Is P. vulgaris now P. veris? There is no taxonomic entry for a P. vulgaris or any of the synonyms listed for it. Appears there are 26 Species and 32 accepted taxa overall for Primula and none of those three are appearing. Am I missing something?

Here are some nice photos of P. veris
http://www.mtnbrook.com/mpb/species.html

P. veris (which you may not have) escaped and naturalized in quite a few northeastern States. I'm pretty sure it's on somebody's invasive list because it evidently can self seed quite well.

Here's a link to a map of current distribution for P. veris-
http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?keywordquery=primula+veris&mode=sciname&submit.x=0&submit.y=0
Looks as if Cowslip has "naturalized" in 10 States. That is probably an indicator that this plant might be a cause for concern. I know we have this along the roadsides so it's definitely weedy by me yet our State is not listing it as being "naturalized". Odd.

I'd be curious to learn more about P. vulgaris. Appears to have a common name of English Primrose and it looks quite popular in that seed and plants of it are listed for sale. Most references to P. vulgaris are from the UK. Now I'm starting to wonder if the plant I keep seeing everywhere in Illinois is really P. veris. I can't even take any photos yet as it's not up and blooming yet.

Well, I've ordered one English Primrose. They are so pretty. I'd like to collect all of them. Glad they are not invasive.

P. veris and P. vulgaris are distinctly different species.

What would you like to know about P. vulgaris?

What's the taxonomic number to it? Am I missing a link to it in the US Plants Data Base? The plant is obviously popular over here. I'm finding obscure references to them being one and the same.

Forgot to add this-
http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/taxon.pl?29581

On the ITIS database the TSN for P. vulgaris is 504607, I've not seen P. vulgaris on the USDA PLANTS database.

I don't know what obscure references you are using but they are most definitely not one and the same species. Prof John Richards, the leading authority on Primula lists them as separate.

Re the GRIN

Are we discussing P. veris var. acaulis and P. acaulis synonymy here?

If so then yes P. vulgaris does have them as synonyms. Linnaeus used the epithet acaulis prior to Hudson's vulgaris. Unfortunately there is some confusion about which rank Linnaeus considered acaulis took since he authoured both P. acaulis and P. veris var. acaulis, using P. acaulis first in Flora Anglica and P. veris var. acaulis at later dates. Currently this means acaulis is not considered a good basionym for this species by many taxonomists and P. vulgaris takes precidence at the moment. P. acaulis is sometimes still used in non English speaking parts of the world but to all intents and purposes P. vulgaris is the current name.

if this isn't waht you mean please let me know :)

What exactly are the taxonomic numbers for each of them. Maybe that will help sort it out in my brain. Our sources are only listing P. veris??? I found a reference to P. veris var. acaulis as mentioned by you above- http://www.hear.org/gcw/html/autogend/species/15546.HTM

Here's the link to P. veris in the USDA Plants data base-
http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?keywordquery=Primula+veris&mode=sciname&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

Yet on the other hand, I keep finding images of P. vulgaris that show a plant that has distinctly differing leaves from P. veris and the flowers of P. vulgaris are definitely not all yellow as are those of P. veris. Evidently P. veris is being referred to as the Northern Primrose here in the US because it's naturalizing in cooler zones.

I think the Americans better get their act together and update that site because based on the little bit I have found, there are sources claiming the DNA is different yet they are able to hybridize and other sources from 1995 I believe that stated the DNA was the same??? The other thing I found is that both appear to be heterostylous? P. veris is listed as "weedy" because of its ability to be self fertilizing or rather self self-compatible in the absence of another plant which is not exactly a desirable characterisitc to some gardeners. Both appear to have a native range of Europe? And, both can evidently tolerate a wide range of environmental extremes? Is this true?

What I would really like to know is what we really have in ditches around here growing side by side with the classic Chicory, Garlic Mustard, Dame's Rocket, Shasta and Ox-eye Daisy and all those other roadside and open field classics?

I've got a friend who just got his PhD. He's a taxonomist and I can't understand half... no 1/20th of what he says half the time. I could ask him but I doubt seriously if I would get an answer that wasn't the equivalent of ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Quite frankly, I don't even know how to word my question to him other than to forward a photo of what we have growing around here when it starts blooming and a photo from the net of P. vulgaris and telling him to sic and explain to me why there are no references out there to P. vulgaris in the US??? I think I'd prefer to try to figure it out in my pea brain with you. You know these plants and he probably doesn't.

Got it! 24035

I'm not entirely certain where to start so please bear with me.

Self (in)compatibility
Primula veris - Pins 14% self fertile, Thrums 0.6% self fertile
Primula vulgaris - Pins 62% self fertile, Thrums fully self sterile

There is a need for cross pollination for P. veris to be successful. Despite P. vulgaris having a better chance of self fertilisation if they bear pins, they still rely on insect pollination to quite an extent and should the spring be cold or wet they will set very little seed.

Native ranges here are difficult for two reasons, a) ancient trade routes and b) both species are one of the earliest plants to be used in garden settings so we're looking at two species which could have naturalised over a very long time.

Wild ranges - P. veris - Norway and Ireland to S.E Spain. N. Greece,Turkey, the Caucasus and Iran eastwards through Siberia to the Amur north of Manchuria.

Absent from Africa, extreme S. Europe, Mediterranean Islands, Iceland, N. Siberia and drier areas of central Asia.

Wild ranges - P. vulgaris - S. Norway, Denmark, the British Isles, France, N. and W. Iberia, Italy, Yugoslavia,Greece, S.W and N. Turkey, S.W. Ukraine, the Crimea, the Caucasus and southern Shores of the Caspian Sea and larger Mediterranean Islands, N. African from Gibraltar to Tunisia, Syria, Lebanon and Israel.

Absent from Sardinia and Cyprus.

"And, both can evidently tolerate a wide range of environmental extremes? Is this true?"

Both species tolerate some variety in habitat rather than environmental extremes. Both species can be found in grassland or light woodland and on neutral soils although they will tolerate some alkalinity. Neither enjoy hot, dry summers nor waterlogging, P. veris is a little better coping in severe winters, P. vulgaris prefers them to be mild.

Despite their wide range and the success of P. veris, I must admit I'd be surprised if either species became agressive. I say this because both have quite a wide range and neither are reported as such. Both species cross pollinate with each other, we have examples of this in our garden and there is some (uncommon) colour variation in P. vulgaris of white, pink, red or purple in the wild population but not P. veris. P. veris does have a red and red-orange set of flower variations but these are now considered to be through garden hybridisation. P. vulgaris and P. veris can cross pollinate in the wild and produce Primula x polyantha.

It was the information I was reading on the pins and thrums that I found fascinating. Pretty cool, eh! The germination rates of over 95% were impressive too.

Backing up a bit to this-

I think he/she is refering to oenothera which lots of people call primroses.

I'm afraid I think Beaker_ch was refering to Oenithera too rather than Primula species.

Pins and thrums are interesting as are the mutations that pop up quite naturally, Primula is an interesting genus all round. I should imagine germination rates of 95% though are fresh seed in ideal conditions, I'm happy if I get 50% LOL.

That was actually the first time I read about those adaptations. Pins and thrums are pretty wild. I didn't get to anything on mutations associated with this adaptation. Do you have a link?

Ahh no, sorry, I was thinking of general mutations such as hose in hose flower forms rather than a pin or thrum mutation.

Those occur in Azaleas and Daylilies quite frequently although it would be neat to see in a Primrose. I have a few Primroses on my counter top. They went to seed and one of them promptly bit the dust on me. Ingrate! I gave that plant prime kitchen window space and it still didn't last longer than a few months. The tag said it was P. acaulis. Pretty little thing. Very cheerful plant. I still have one left that just finished blooming.

I don't know who comes up with these percentages on germination. I rarely go over 90% on anything and that's under ideal conditions.

We have a hose in hose type blooming it's rather large heads off at the moment, I'll try and get a piccie of it, here are some from the PF

Fully double Miss Indigo http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/14901/

Jack in the Green http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/56930/

Here's a double Jack in the Green type 'Dawn Ansell' http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/38852/

Heavily scalloped petals http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/65008/index.html

There are others, such as double lace, striped calyces (Jackanapes) etc

That's typical of Primroses, they will die suddently and others will go for years, downright annoying too! The nurserymen must see me coming some years.

I like that Double Flowered Primrose 'Dawn Ansell'. One of the ones I killed was a double white. I don't think it was anything fancy though.

The laundry is in and I had a minute so I decided to stay one step ahead of these plants repeatedly dying on me.

How did I do Baa! Tee he!

Now go ahead and tell me the truth, this particular photo is PlantFiles worthy, right ;)

ROTFL! Now there is a rare beast indeed *G*

I wonder what your taxonomist friend would call this new species, how about Primula obductiolenta? (one of these days someone will haul me up over my apalling Latin grammar)

John would be absolutely appalled that I had the audacity to put that plant in bondage. Yes, P. obductiolenta would be perfectly fitting. You go ahead and create the entry and feel free to use my photo ;)

You should send that picture to PBS for Red Green. I'd love to see Red do a gardenening show.

You're welcome to the photo. What is a Red Green? If it's examples of 100 ways to use duct tape, I could get you much better photos from around my house. My husband was rearended and used it to hold up his rear bumper until he could get his vehicle in for repairs. I think I have a photo of that somewhere because I was aghast. All in all, I have many shining examples of how to misuse duct tape around here, everything from phones to cords to the vacuum cleaner hose.

Red Green is a program on PBS. How to explain this without offending the Canadian members.... Anyway, there's all these crazy characters who are members of the Possum Lake Lodge and they do some really stupid things. Red has a segment called Handyman's Corner where he usually duct tapes something together. He calls it the handyman's favorite tool. It's very amusing and makes you glad that none of these guys live in your neighborhood.

Well, does he always wear a hunting cap and have suspenders with one green strap and one red one? Does he have a nephew by the name of Harold who dresses just like him? Does he have any buddies that accidentally blows things up, run things over and generally causes mayhay wherever they go or with whatever they touch? If so, chances are he might be Red.

I'm trying to remember the "Men's Prayer" that they do at the end of each show. Something like, "I am a man...I can change...if I have too." For some strange reason, guys really like this show.

One of the programs I remember with duct tape was when they took two smashed up cars, cut them in half, and duct taped the two good pieces together.

Lemme see here... he doesn't have one hunting cap, he has an enitre collection. He inherited his Dad's hunting cap collection and expanded from there. No Christmas suspenders but he does have an assortment of blacks, blues, camoflauge, and one really neat pair that looks like a yard stick in yellow complete with inches. Instead of red and green... how about black and blue? That could be arranged, he's color blind anyway. My husband and my Dad look like the Bobsie Twins in their hunting caps and suspenders. No nephew by the name of Harold but how about a former cat named Harold? Does that count even though the cat died many years ago? Now about buddies who blow things up, yup. They also like to burn things too. They particularly like fireworks and the bigger the bang the better. They lend new definition to the term "4th of July fireworks display". They can belch out the tune to dueling banjos and pass gas in unison which they blame on each other if a woman walks near. They taught their sons these tricks too. Wasn't that special? My husband and his buddies also like to be manyly men and they go to the dump and shoot up extremely dangerous objects such as old tv sets and toilets. Yes, they are manly men who take their firearms serious. They call it target practice. Duct tape is the first thing to get added to the camping gear. We have many rolls of duct tape around here. One last thing- when they go camping with their boys, they do sniff tests to determine when it is time to change their underware. I suspect that if they ripped a pair, they'd just duct tape the elastic back to the fabric to finish out the trip.

Now if you can find it anywhere, I'd really like to know what the "Men's Prayer" is that they close out the Red Green program with because I have the e-mail addresses of all of my husband's "buddies" and I think they'd enjoy that very much as by the sounds of things, Red was cloned.

LOL I'll try to remember to watch this week.

Well, you've got to check out the program. It should air on most Public Broadcast Stations. Usually runs around 10:00 or 10:30 p.m. on Saturday night in Minneapolis and listed in the programming guide as "Red Green"

I already told my husband that he would need to watch this to see if it appealed to him. They like the History Channel and Discovery but then there are these three programs-
Mail Call
Dirty Jobs
Ghost something or other T.A.P.S

I have no doubt Red Green is destined to be a hit. I don't know that we get it though. We've done a search and can't find it so far.

http://www.redgreen.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Red_Green_Show

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101177/quotes
great explanation of why men don't ask for directions here.

And lookie what I found! The Man's Prayer also known as the "Men Anonymous" pledge-
"I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess."

All: I'm a man, but I can change, if I have to, I guess.

I can't believe we'd never heard of this program before you mentioned it.

It's always been popular up here. I'm surprised you don't get it. I wasn't aware that the show had ended. I don't watch religously, just every now and then. Guess I've just been watching reruns and didn';t even notice.