Aristolochia fan with a rather odd ethical question...

Hello All.

I have recently become a huge fan of Aristolochias and enjoy growing them under lights and outdoors. I know many of the species are host plants for the Pipevine Swallowtail, which, I don't believe, makes it this far north. Many people have commented in the forums on how gorgeous they are and how much they enjoy seeing them.

I recently stumbled across a mounted specimen on eBay for a very reasonable price. It looks very cool.

I am a complete and total animal lover, and have been known to bring ants I find indoors down three flights of stairs to let them outside.

My ethical question: By buying this mounted specimen, am I exploiting the insects at the expense of their survival, or am I assisting in their survival by supporting a market for, and interest in, them?

I would appreciate any viewpoints to help me make this admittedly NOT monumental and life-changing decision!

Erick



This message was edited Apr 7, 2006 8:35 PM

My 2 cents: If it were in support of some scientific organization, my conscience would be clear. eBay? Total exploitation, but I'm biased against anything eBay.

Personally, I don't think I would enjoy a mounted speciman as much as I would a painting, photograph or sculpture. Too clinical, but then it's all a matter of taste.

Also, I'm of the opinion whenever a person questions whether something is right or not, deep down they know the true answer; not.

Thank you beaker_ch. You make some excellent points worth full consideration. I really appreciate your kindness in sharing your thoughts on the subject.

Erick

Hi Erick. This butterfly is getting closer to you.
14 - Viceroy, eastern tiger swallowtail and monarch are among the butterfly species nectaring on garden flowers. The surface temperature of Lake Waconia is 74 degrees F. Pipevine swallowtail butterfly seen at Waseca.

I found this at: http://www.gustavus.edu/oncampus/arboretum/phen99Aug.html

Erick-

I have a whole collection of beautiful butterflies and night moths, and various other interesting dragonflies and other insects...

I didn't purchase any of them, nor are they mounted. I find them in the yard already dead from old age, and especially old moths around the base of a bug light that they are attracted to at night, (but are too large to be zapped by...they just like the light).

You sound like a person, who (like myself) just appreciates their beauty, and wants to admire it longer than the few seconds you get, as they pass by.

I enjoy my collection guilt-free because the butterflies, moths, dragonflies(you name it) were not killed by me. They ran their course in nature, and I was lucky enough to find these little creatures before the ants did...

I'll keep an eye out for a pipevine swallowtail for you, and I could always just mail you one, if I find one. That is one of our common butterflies here...

The butterfly guy(forgot their official name) at the butterfly pavillion here, told me that you flatten them back out by moisture. He said he puts them in an envelope, plastic box, or small cooler with a wetted papertowel overnight, and in the morning they are flexible. Then you spread their wings as you wish(in a dry, warm area), and anchor them until they dry.

From there you could always try to duplicate the mounting you saw on ebay(or even print out a picture of it)and take it to a framing place, and have one made similar to the one you liked.

Yes, it is more trouble, but you can enjoy one guiltfree, this way...
Just a thought.
-T

How can a swallow tail be enjoyed when it is not flirting from flower to flower giving me a few seconds to appreciate it's magnificence. Google Swallow tail and collect pictures. I always think that my dog who I loved would grace my living room as a preserved specimen would make me always think she is dead not how nice to have her with me. maybe not you with the swallowtail. I have no moral conflict just "It aint like the real thing that I get to enjoy all through the summer here." We don't get swallow tails either.

This message was edited Apr 12, 2006 11:31 PM

Bless you for taking the time to release bugs and such that find their way indoors :o)

I think that anyone who purchases a specimen is promoting their demise. If there wasn't a demand for them then they wouldn't be killed by people trying to make a buck.

Just think of this...only about 2% of the eggs a butterfly oviposits will make it to adulthood. Predators (humans included), lack of larval hosts, accidents (like running into a windshield), weather etc...all play a part in their demise. Some butterflies lay only a few eggs while other may lay a couple hundred. I prefer to do all I can to ensure their safety.

As a member of NABA (North American Butterfly Association) and several local butterfly parks I strongly believe in butterfly conservation and try to do my best to provide larval hosts and nectaring plants so I can sit back and enjoy the beauty of having butterflies lay eggs, watch caterpillars grow and see more butterflies frequent my yard.

I know if it wasn't for the scientistics and collectors from days gone by we wouldn't have the knowledge from all their studies...but there really isn't a need to kill and collect them now. There are excellent photographs available. Our area has many lepidopterists who have their own websites to show off the butterflies they've photographed.

I had a nasty run in with some collectors who came from out of town specifically to collect/kill a rare butterfly that had been sighted here. They said they needed it for DNA verification of the species.

Last year I found several weird looking/unknown caterpillars feeding on my duranta plant. I got calls from scientists/collectors who wanted me to hand over a couple of caterpillars for study (which literally meant they were going to be dissected). On the other hand I had butterfliers who wanted me to ensure their safety and complete the life cycle.

I ended up putting locks on my gates and asked a local butterfly expert to come take them from my yard and raise them. Butterfly conservationsists and butterfly lovers were invited to take photographs of their growth stages from caterpillar to chrysalis to butterfly. They were also invited to come and photograph the release of each butterfly.

A few days after one of the releases a female was in my yard laying eggs once again!!! (We believe in releasing the butterfly in the same location the caterpillar was found)

On a sad note...the collectors did end up finding and killing one butterfly that I know of...no telling if they got more for their own private jollies.

However, on a much happier note...several other caterpillars were found on similar plant species a few weeks later in a couple of other locations around town. When our area had the annual butterfly festival a lot of people that came from all over the US were thrilled to see, photograph and add the rare marius hairstreak to their life list of butterflies sighted. A few were also lucky enough to photograph an ovipositing female!

Yes...I believe we should all do what we can to save every egg, caterpillar, chrysalis and butterfly for everyone else to enjoy.

~ Cat

Thank you Shirley. That was interesting reading! I would love to see a pipevine swallowtail in our neighborhood. With the way global warming is progressing, I might even be able to grow bananas and gingers year round here in a few years....

seedpicker_TX, what a wonderful compromise and a generous offer! How very kind of you. I have always wanted to see one of these butterflies, and you offer a practical way to do that here in St. Paul without the guilt (other than a tiny bit for denying an ant colony a meal). I would be delighted if you would save the next deceased swallowtail that you find for me. Just let me know when you would like me to send postage/shipping. Thank you, too, for the great advice on mounting it. Wow, again, what a great compromise!

Soferdig, I agree with you completely. You add some important perspective to the discussion. Thank you.

Cat, thank you for sharing your fascinating and infomative viewpoints and experiences. Wow, a lot to think about. You even managed to increase my already-healthy respect and admiration for butterflies (and insects in general). Know that your comments are sincerely appreciated.

Of course, I didn't buy the specimen eBay. Instead, I have a gorgeous picture of a pipevine swallowtail on my desktop that I enjoy many times throughout the day.

All the best to all of you, and happy spring!

Erick

Hi Erick,

I've got to agree with the replies above. A good photograph is much better than a mounted specimen, and watching butterflies in your own garden is much better than looking at a photo.
Last year, I noticed a giant swallowtail laying eggs on a lemon tree I had in the back yard. When I checked out this forum, I found posts from several people who raised the catepillars inside of screen cages, then released the butterflies after they hatched. It sounded quite interesting, so I built a cage myself, and raised several giant and black swallowtails, and a couple of gulf fritillaries as well. The whole process of watching the catepillars grow and pupate, then emerge is fascinating. And you have a great opportunity to take pics when they emerge. To top it all off, this increases the local population, since most catepillars in the wild are eaten by birds and wasps. Here's a pic of a giant swallowtail I took last summer right after releasing it.

Mark

Mark-
Can you post a pic of your screen cage? I'd like to try that...
thanks
-T

Erick,

I swap out a variety of butterfly and caterpillar photos for my desktop too. All photos I have taken from my yard or the local butterfly parks. Hummingbirds too!

Mark --- Great photo! It's always great to read and see photos from fellow butterfliers who raise and release.

I never cease to be awed by watching the butterfly mating game, the female laying eggs and watching those eggs hatch into tiny caterpillars. It amazing how quickly those teeny caterpillars grow and turn into chrysalids and then before you know it - they eclose as gorgeous butterflies!!!

So far I've had the wonderful experience of raising Giant Swallowtails, Black Swallowtails, Gulf Fritillaries, Monarchs, Queens, very rare Marius hairstreaks, Black Witch Moths, Rustic Sphinx Moths and Green Pluto Sphinx Moths.

Am hoping the new larval hosts I've planted this year to attract other butterflies will allow me to add Buckeyes, Red Admirals and Leafwings and Malachites. Am also hoping to attract Zebra Heliconias and Julias to my passifloras too. Most of the uncommon and rare butterflies can be seen at the local parks as several border the Rio Grande River...but I can still hope some of those butterflies will make it safely into the into the city.

~ Cat

ps....I recently received a book I'd pre-ordered from Amazon back in October - it's called The Life Cycles of Butterflies by Judy Burris & Wayne Richards. It shows 23 butterflies from egg to maturity. Excellent photos of each stage!!! Shows their larval host plants, breeding season, geographical location etc. It is one of the best books I've come across...and I have at the very least 50 butterfly books. This is a must have to anyone's collection. I think so highly of this book that I ordered another and will be donating it to a local school library. That school is in the process of making a butterfly reading garden which will have it's 'grand viewing' in May :o)

Hello Mark.

How exciting that must have been to witness the whole process from egg to caterpillar to stunning butterfly! And what a gorgeous butterfly it is - thank you for sharing the picture. We have many beautiful butterflies here, but nothing like the swallowtails (and other cool butterflies) you get down south. I am envious.

Cat,

Your enthusiasm for butterflies is obvious and infectious! Wow, and wow again. Thank you for your most interesting experiences and comments. I've enjoyed reading your post a number of times. Thank you, too, for the book recommendation. I will check it out.

Regards,

Erick

Hi Seedpicker,

Sorry its been a while since I've been online. Here is a pic of my cage. There's a milkweed plant and 3 monarch chrysalises in it.

Mark

Erik you are welcome to print a copy of any butterfly pic I have posted on webshots for you own personal use. I have some good ones and some so so. http://community.webshots.com/user/1birdylady/3

Thanks Mark!

So, any special part for them to attach to? Or, do they just attach to the screen?

DonnaB,

Your pictures are gorgeous! With your kind permission, I will rotate them on my desktop. How very kind of you to share them with me.

Mark, the cage is very cool.

Erick

Seedpicker,

The top of the cage is plywood, so they usually attach to that or to part of the frame. Here's a pic of a Monarch that just emerged today. It flew way up into a tree when I let it out, so I couldn't get a natural picture.

Mark

But I did get a pic with its wings spread.

Mark

Mark-
Thanks for all the great info and pics!
very neat & definitely something I'd love to do.
-T