Hello everyone. I have been reading through your forums and thank you for all the wisdom and humor. Let me start off with what I do know and what I do have in hopes that those of you in the know can fill in the blanks ;-).
We have a large commercial sized, heated greenhouse that stays very warm and very humid. I have the entire greenhouse shaded with cloth, as I find this works well even with sun loving plants and helps me control the temp. It is a light filter, not a heavy shade cloth. We keep the greenhouse very humid. We have a lot of experience growing tropicals (main reason we have a commercial sized, heated greenhouse lol), but will be brand new at carnivorous plants. I have been fascinated by them since a kid and now that I can appreciate plants as an adult I very much wish to begin growing them. To start out, I wish to convert a black molded plastic koi pond I have sitting around into an environment for these plants. It will be inside the greenhouse, not outside. It is one of the large ponds with a center deep section of about 3 foot and side shallow section of about 1.5 foot. I think it is 200 gallon (one of the largest ones that stores such as Home Depot offer). It is solid, as in will hold water. Now what I need to know is - now what! lol I have no idea how to fill it, what media to use, etc., etc. Could I bother you all for some carnivorous plant growing 101? I also need to know what species I can grow in the media that you all start recommending. I also want to say that when I start a hobby, I would rather give it my all up front so as not to get too frustrated by trying to cut corners so please - dont hold back! LOL Ok, my learning hat is on. I look forward to watching this thread. Thanks in advance everyone, please enable me with your addiction.
New to bogs - Please Help!
Any reason why you want the preform inside your greenhouse and not outside? You might not be using your space as well as you could. I think you would be able to grow more if you moved the preform outside in that nice zone 7. Sarracenia combined with Bog Orchids out the wazoo come to mind and really make a statement and that would free up/leave space in the greenhouse for other species that love that warm and high humidity environment. Catch that... "leave space for other species ;)" Tee he! We need new vict... er uh converts over here.
A "large commercial sized, heated greenhouse that stays very warm and very humid" lends itself to tropical species not the temperate species that would be found in bogs. Sounds to me as if you have a whole new world ahead of you and I want to welcome you to this addicti...er uh passion.
All these people with greenhouses makes me absolutely green with envy!
Hmmm, I am open to the idea of starting one outside. I guess I just assumed with how hot it gets here in summer (I know zone 7 but think Atlanta heat here), they wouldnt make it. Did I assume wrong? Ok, how bout we put a Y in this road. Can you tell me which species would be good outside and which species would do better in the greenhouse? If I am going to form a bog garden outside, I can do that with the koi liner and make for a much more interesting and larger exterior bog garden ;-). Ok, now that we have a Y in the road, how bout filling me in on the hows and whats for both forks? Oh what fun I think I have in front of me. I love the plants we currently grow but a new challenge is fun for us. I think right now I am most drawn to the Sarracenia, Orchids, Nepenthes and flytraps but that may only be due to the fact that I have had limited exposure to other species. Ok, open my eyes. lol
Almost forgot. The other reason I was thinking inside in my first assumption is due to the fact that although we have extremely hot, dry summers. Our winters stay mild with weekly spikes into subzero weather. Trying to give all the info I can for the proper help. Thanks
I like the idea of the epdm liner better than the preform.
How about I tell ya what can go outside year round based on my personal experiences and leave the inside stuff to the Big Kahoona
All Sarracenia and all Sarracenia cultivars and naturally occurring hybrids outside. Those are North American native temperate species. I'm in Zone 5 and I have quite a few outside in bogs year round that come through perfectly fine... well sort of... I do have a problem with feral/stray cats here using my largest bog as a litter box and then there are the squirrels that make a mess of everything in the fall when they uproot plants and leave them to bake in the sun so they can bury their acorns and nuts.
Pinguicula macroceras outside. I'd tell you to consider P. vulgaris, P. poldinii, P. longifolia, P. mundii, P. antarctica, P. alpina, P. balcanica, and P. villosa but I think you're way too warm for those even if you plant them outside in a bog and I will let Phil correct me if I am wrong in that assessment. I am starting many of these from seed and already have others here and in zone 5, I might be a little too warm for some of them so I've been sticking them in my refrigerator in the fall and spring and only leaving them out in the dead of winter... we'll see in the years to come how they fair but so far it looks as if both my P. vulgaris and P. villosa like this arrangement. Others that should work fine outside year round for you should be some P. grandiflora (depends on location of origin), P. pumila, P. caerulea, P. ionantha, and P. planifolia. I killed off all of these save the P. grandiflora last year. Accidents happen. Don't ask me about lusitanica... that plant hates me.
Regarding, Nepenthes... I'll definitely leave that whole category to Phil and Wolf but I'm thinking your greenhouse may be ideal for lowlands and some intermediates. We do have some Neps and we grow them inside and hang some of them outside in summer.
Darlingtonia... I'll leave that to Pixie being as how she's got a horseshoe up her rear with where she lives on that plant. The D. californica likes cool roots though and that may be a problem for you that far down south.
VFTs, all of them outside. Every last one! I love Dionaea muscipula and we grow them outside year round up here. If we receive any in the winter, we put them in African Violet pots until we can transplant them outside.
Drosera! Many you can grow outside year round There are a few that will not like it that far down south and D. linnearis as well as one race of D. anglica comes to mind. You can easily grow Drosera Filliformis, D. intermedia, D. rotundifolia, as well as the D. anglica that occurs in HI as well as throughout the UK outside year round.
That leaves tuberous, sub tropical, and tropical Drosera for inside your greenhouse. Oh oh oh! Byblis! I'm going to be trying those from seed soon. Oh oh oh! I forgot Drosera binata... depends on the binata as some go dormant and I grow those inside and only bring them outside in summer.
Lauren you've pretty much hit the nail on the head on this one. Definitely wouldn't do the Sarracenia in the greenhouse. In the fall they would probably develop sooty mold and fungus like crazy. You were right about the pings though. vulgaris, macrocerus, etc would not like the heat. Also...planifolia and ionantha would do really well but most people fail with these because they are USUALLY found growing nearly aquatic. I grow mine with the water level up to the soil surface and have great results.
Ping. lutea, caerulea, pumila, primuliflora like damp soil, but not submerged conditions.
Drosera rotundifolia is more of a cool growing plant and may not do so well in the heat in MS...but stranger things have happened. I would go for capillaris (sp), intermedia, anglica (HI form or the hybrid CAxHI), filiformis (any of the forms), brevifolia, spathulata to name a few. And definitely vft.
What are your temp ranges in the ghouse spring through winter? I would go with Nepenthes (but can determine later once the temp ranges are divulged), Mexican Pinguicula, Utricularia, Genlisea, All tropical Drosera, Cephalotus..provided it can have a cool down at night, Byblis, Drosophyllum, and I could go on.
If you are going to construct a bog garden I would first excavate an area to sink the pre-form into the ground. If left above ground you may have a problem with too much heat build up in the soil due to the black color of the liner. Try to keep the roots cool. Use a soil mix of your choice as long as it contains primarily sphagnum peat moss and some clean washed sand. I would steer clear of perlite or pumice because it floats...but you could use either of these as long as you add a top layer of peat/washed sand to hold the floaty bits down.
Let us know what your thoughts are and we'll help you get started.
Wow guys, seems I have chosen some plants that may be as "fun" as orchids. LOL Ok, I think I am following you guys well on the outside ideas and should be able to start on that part of it soon. Would you suggest a place that is in full shade (cooler), filtered shade, part sun or full sun?
As for the greenhouse. Spring/summer we keep it around 80. We can allow it to hit 90's easily though but keep it at 80 for our comfort. Evening temps fall off a bit and we normally keep it at about 70 in the evening. Now in the winter we keep it at about 50 day and night. If the sun peeks out too much it could raise to 60-70, so keep that in mind. I could regulate this with fans but just have not as of yet, the plants we overwinter in there do not mind spikes as long as it doesnt drop below 45. Ok, now I cannot wait to see what is suggested for the greenhouse as well.
Also, for both the outside and inside bog - am I creating an environment that is "spongy" wet all the way to the surface, or am I creating a environment that is dry/moist on the surface but wet below? In other words - a pot with no drain holes dry on surface but holding water at the bottom that would root rot most plants or wet all the way through?
Thanks!
Oww! Oww! My horseshoe just shifted!!! Man! Did I have to put it in open side first?
I believe it was Phil who referred way back when to someone he knew who tried to keep the Darlingtonia roots cool with icecubes during the summer, and it didn't work. Maybe he'll advise you to skip those. There are so many that are easier to grow.
Oops, forgot about D. capillaris. Good save Phil!
You know, I thought about mentioning Utricularia to her but when she said large greenhouse... I got visions of Utricularia jumping to all of her other pots.
Pixie dear... that was me who had the Darlingtonia. I had to pass them on to somebody else because my husband claimed he kept getting rainwater ice cubes from the freezer for his Coka Cola instead of "real" ice cubes. The insect fly thingie that was in a cube once that ended up in his Coke didn't help matters. The Darlingtonia did really well here but my house just isn't the best place to grow them. I had to give them an eastern exposure which happened to be by the door that everyone uses to go in and out to the backyard and then Audrey kept ripping them out of the sphagnum and taking off with them and those plants were nothing but trouble for me so they went bye bye. I wish I could grow them in my yard like you but I can't.
Tee he, I am the southeastern Ping murderess. Toss in lusitanica for good measure too. The Darlingtonia had to go... it would have been only a matter of time before that dog ripped them out when I wasn't home to repot them.
Sorry about your mind. I lose mine quite frequently but I always manage to find it again somehow. Mine comes and it goes, it comes it goes. Lately it seems to go more frequently than it comes. Is this a sign?
I'm sure it's a sign. I just don't understand the directions. LOLLLLLL!!!
You murder pings, I murder certain drosera species. We all are killers in one way or another. I also murder tubers I store over the winter.
Perhaps your mind and mine have joined Rylaff's down in Florida. She said hers was at the beach.
Meanwhile, we await word about what our new friend should grow in her greenhouse.
I have to tell someone before I bust a gut: my brugmansia that I've been babying in my greenhouse over the winter has 4 flower buds on it! I believe I literally jumped up and down and my DH ran out to the greenhouse to make sure all was well. He heard the shrieking. I can't believe it's going to bloom so soon! I thought I would have to wait until summer! I have 4 more that I grew from cuttings someone sent me and they are all growing well. Maybe they will bloom this year. Then I will have absolutely no room at all in the greenhouse next winter. I envy luvsplants' greenhouse for tropicals. Call it greenhouse lust.
Whats a brugmansia?? Do they eat bugs??
Why Wolf! Where have you been lurking? Nope, they don't eat bugs. Totally unrelated to any other post on any of these threads in this forum. Just got a wild hair and had to tell friends. They are 'angel's trumpet'. Really big leaves with pendulous trumpet shaped flowers hanging down. I think there is an entire forum devoted to them, but I'm not even going to go there.
Pixy - sorry to tell you this, but if you grow brugs more than one season and they do well - you WILL go to that forum and you WILL make room in that greenhouse. ;-) It is totally unavoidable. Trust me, I know.
Ok, I need to know something important here so I can start on my bogs. Is there a premade bog mix I should use or do I make my own? Is anyone familiar with sunshine mix #1? It is well aerated and holds water well. I wonder if it would make a good bog mix? Also, and yes I know this is a silly question but it must be asked, do I keep the bog soppy wet all the time? Or is it more a thing that the bottom should hold water, not drain, and be mushy but the top be "dryish"? I wish I lived close enough to some of you that I could just come look at your bogs. lol Remember, I have to get over the fear of root rot here, so creating a soppy environment for plants will be new to me since I have avoided it for years to avoid root rot. lol Help!
sunshine mix #1 will not work. There's dolomitic lime in it. Your medium does not need to be soppy wet.
I'd go for a mix of Canadian Sphagnum Peat- pick up a few bales. Tear open a little corner of the bags and sniff it first to make sure it doesn't smell like manure.. I got a few bad bags last year. Now you'll need sand. Rinse your sand before using it in your medium. I know this sounds like an extremely time consuming step but it is a necessary evil. In the summer, I use a 150 gallon stock tank and dump the sand in it and add a hose. I swish the sand around until it the water runs clear. I'd go for a mix of about 2:1. I add cut white pine needles to my medium.
Remember, bogs are nutrient deficient. Carnivorous plants evolved in nutrient deficient environments and they get their nutrients from bugs. You fertilize them and for all practical purposes, they're dead. Rinse the nutrients out of your sand and make sure your peat isn't a peat compost/manure mix and you should be fine.
I sense luvsplants' downfall into the carnivorous plant abyss? Anyone else sense this or is it just me?
Equil - Thanks for the tips on what to avoid with the peat. I have found a few bales of appropriate peat and now need to get some sand. I am assuming that your ratio of 2:1 is 2parts peat to 1 part sand? Also - what kind of sand? I have found washed masonry sand (toybox sand), it is white and small grain. The only other sand I can redily purchase here is a red sand mix that is used for construction fill. It is a large grain sand, even has very small pebbles in it but will need to be washed hard as it also has a fair amount of our famous red clay in it. Do you have any other recommendations?
Ok, and now for the plants. The recommendations given by everyone so far are great. Now where do I find them? lol Can you all suggest some places to purchase plants?
Thanks again for all the help folks. I look forward to getting these bogs going.
I've got a lot of allergies so I ask other people to do my "sniff tests" on the Canadian sphagnum peat for me. 2:1 or even a 3:1 ratio is fine for a bog. I tend to go a little heavier for pots because we have high winds here and I want them weighted. Me personally, I've been using tube sand from Home Depot lately which is larger grained than the play sand you mentioned but I don't know how it compares to your red sand mix. Just be sure you rinse and rinse very well.
Where to get plants, D-mail the member named philcula. He's really busy at this time of year so he doesn't get a chance to pop in as frequently as he might like. His plants are robust, healthy, beyond affordably priced, and always packed well, and.... drum roll please.... you don't have to nag him to get your order and no bugs in the plants- now there's a concept. Just a suggestion but you might want to consider letting him pick plants for you. I know this sounds strange but trust me... he has impeccable taste. Aside from that you're starting out from scratch and have nothing going at all in your bog. Maybe he could put together some sort of a "starter" pack for you. I'd ask.
I would have also sent you to Botanique because they always had nice plants but they are no longer retail so that knocks people like you and me out of the ballpark. California Carnivores has nice plants as well as a very nice selection but their shipping and handling prices tend to be a little bit higher than most. Dangerous Plants and Sarracenia Northwest also have very nice healthy plants and they are affordably priced but you'll definitely get bigger plants from philcula. I'd buy from all of them again but the last two have more common CPs and I'm a little bit beyond those Sarracenia now. None of these nurseries send plants that have bugs. I hate getting bugs with any plants. It's a big turnoff. So much so that I won't buy from people who have sent me plants that have bugs. Very expensive and nerve racking to deal with infestations of any type.
Oh what fun! You are slipping right down the carnivorous plant abyss. Welcome to our obsession.
Yes, Lauren, she is slipping fast! This forumis a little like the carnivorous plants it represents - we lure them in and they're stuck!! MMMWWWUUUUUHHHHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! another one bites the dust.
Luvsplants, sounds like you know what you're talking about in terms of brugmansia.
I will not allow another addiction. I will not allow another addiction. I will not allow another addiction. I will not allow another addiction.
My greenhouse is simply not big enough!!!
Oh, forgot to ask how deep she should make these bogs, as I'm getting ready to work on mine, too. The bathroom is almost finished!
This message was edited Apr 6, 2006 11:57 PM
Oh my... I think we have another one who is going to slip down the abyss real soon...
Here's hoping gemini_sage from Kentucky makes an appearance as he's starting his first bog too!
Hello and thanks again for the advice everyone. Oh, and btw - HE here, not a she ;-) Guys can enjoy plants too ya know. My wife and I share this hobby so it works out well for both of us.
Ok, working on getting everything together to get the bogs built. I guess I love the idea of someone in the know putting together a starter package of plants for me if he/she would be so willing I would be happy to purchase. It looks like with the weather we have been having that the greenhouse bog will be finished first. Once completed I will get back on here and go after some plants. lol
Thanks again.
Whoops! Sorry about that! That's the problem with these 'code' names. They're so neutral. I'm sure Philcula and Wolf would be glad to hear that guys can like plants, too, since they are both of the male persuasion! LOL I'm sure you can trust Philcula to choose what would work well for you. If he wouldn't know, I can't imagine who would.
Here I am! Been lurkin' and learnin'.
So I understand white pitchers need full sun. Well, "full" sun is pretty hard to come by in this hollow. About 6 hours of direct sun is as good as it gets, but so far most of my sun lovers can be kept pretty happy. What would suite this exposure?
My shabby-chic bog is an old iron bathtub ( I'm a mad recycler, lol, the cold frame is old windows, the window boxes made from the wood from a falling barn, etc.). It sets at the base of a hill, dug in, with soil surrounding it, so you can't see the tub (well, almost done with that part). That puts it at a height that's easier to work in and see up close. Any advise on where to go from this point is welcomed :)
Neal
Not just white pitchers but pretty much all pitchers need full sun. If you are getting 6 hours, I'd think that would be about the minimum but I'd think you should do just fine.
Recycling anything and everything is the way to go! Good for you!
gemini_sage, I've seen many of your photographs of your projects. I sure hope you post many photos of what ever you create. To be quite honest with you, I'd love to see photos of your window boxes.
I think it should be at least 18" but Phil over rides me and believes it should be deeper. I think, not positive... he felt 2' was best. I'd go with deeper. Sure do wish I could recall how deep he believed was best.
Glacial fill? That certainly does not sound condusive to digging ;-)
It isn't! It's just loads of tumbled rocks, some as small as half a fist, others as large a foot across. They're held together, when they are held together at all, by clay. Take a look at this photo from building the pond last year. This is what I hit about 2 1/2 feet down. Nice colors, but no fun to dig.
No fun at all to dig I can tell. I have to admit though, I find it very interesting. I grew up in Illinois and now live in Mississippi. I can dig all day long and usually never hit rock in both states. The only real difference is black soil in Illinois and red clay in Mississippi. I hope to be able to start on my outside bog area soon.
I hate to say it but that looks nasty. I thought I was bad off with heavy clay. What you have there is shovel busters.
What I have there is BACK busters!! And we have heavy clay, too! Aren't we the lucky ones? LOL luvsplants, you must have lovely river soil. It's a cinch that neither of you live close to active volcanoes! It's actually very, very interesting because there is a huge mix of different minerals in these rocks, every color from yellow to red to black. We live about 40 miles from Mt. Ranier and this is how big our rocks are. They came from the glaciers on that mountain. The closer to the mountain you go, the larger the rocks get. People who live close to the mountain (that's what we call it around here - THE mountain) have these lovely large round boulders in their soil.
I bet if you looked hard enough you could find some semi-precious and precious gems and minerals in there. Now that would make the digging a little more interesting. lol
Yes, you can find cool stuff. Actually I think the rocks here are magnificent. The colors are amazing, as are the shapes. Even though I get tired of digging them, I don't get tired of seeing them. I've been a rock hound my whole life, so I pretty much deserve this. I used to tell my parents that when I grew up I would have a rock house with rock furniture and would probably eat rocks as well. Needless to say, my favorite cartoon? The Flintstones!